Satanic Ritual Abuse - fundie horseshit or troof?

[ViolentPanda]

Fascinating, but let's not forget the boring self-interested abuse that always went on and still goes on without any pseudo occult pseudo justification.

Quite. There have always been abusers who've sought to cloak abuse in other practices, but there have also always been a majority of abusers who don't feel the need to justify their behaviour to themselves, as they've naturalised their behaviour and see "us" as deviants.

 

[toggle]

Quite. There have always been abusers who've sought to cloak abuse in other practices, but there have also always been a majority of abusers who don't feel the need to justify their behaviour to themselves, as they've naturalised their behaviour and see "us" as deviants.

it's the world according to rapists. there are men who admit to being rapists, men who pretend not to be rapists in public, but actually are and men who are in denial about their true nature. the natural state of men is rapist in their eyes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's the world according to rapists. there are men who admit to being rapists, men who pretend not to be rapists in public, but actually are and men who are in denial about their true nature. the natural state of men is rapist in their eyes.

Which is pretty ridiculous, given that throughout the animal kingdom (including humans) "courtship rituals" evolved. They wouldn't have done so unless "the natural state" was actually for both parties to attempt to select the best possible mate. The sooner such males accept that their outlook is purely selfish, based only on satisfying their needs, the sooner we can stack them on a pyre, and burn them.

 

[bluescreen]

pmsl at the idea these numbskulls might think this is any sort of courting ritual. It isn't: it's hazing and bullying.

 

[hot air baboon]

…..many thanks for those who read & responded – much appreciated……

…I haven’t been down this labyrinthine rabbit-hole for quite a while …..had a big stack of books on the subject , some I’d never really read properly…..but man there’s some crazy fascinating and scary stuff in there that really gets inside your head – not in a way that’s entirely healthy …

I think the denial / anti SRA case has the definite possibility of throwing the baby out with the silver chalice full of goats-blood….some of the hard-core denialism seems a bit strident whilst there’s a more wooly man-in-the-street denial that really doesn’t go much further than the idea lacks credibilty because its so extreme & “that sort of thing” couldn’t possibly happen on its own terms

I don’t think the SRA scenario actually involves any wild extrapolation from known and accepted data-points of transgressive behaviour – and there is actually nothing in the SRA mythos that you could say hasn’t happened at some place at some time in some circumstances…I’ve read about 2 multi-generational incest cults in the last couple of days, then add in everything from the Solar Temple slaughtering babies to people like Jeffery Dahmer / Andrei Chikilato …......if you accept that people are basically pretty much “..capable of anything…“ then all we’re really arguing about is motive…

That issue underlies I think one of the most rational cases for the issue is by the Australian researcher Michael Salter

Pdf of full article downloadable with free registration :

https://www.academia.edu/2046900/Out_of_the_shadows_Re-envisioning_the_debate_on_ritual_abuse





…..he basically wants to take the religion out of the picture entirely…although it has always seemed sensible that the so-called “generational satanism” was a likely vehicle for SRA I think he’s actually going a bit far & that there is definitely genuine intent and belief that is meaningful behind the atrocity….

“The main type of crime mistaken for multigenerational orthodox Satanic abuse is probably pornography operations using Satanic sets and themes…”

Colin Ross : Satanic Ritual Abuse

…to explain that you can fall back on the realm of psychopathological disorder as per Lloyd_deMause the self-styled “psycho-historian” who makes some pretty interesting points here that tie up strongly to other stuff I’ve come across about birth rituals…

Why Cults Terrorize and Kill Children LLOYD DEMAUSE The Journal of Psychohistory

I've no idea if this is significant in this context, but in my copy of Dante's Inferno, Mark Musa says the following

early critics thought of the three beasts [leopard, lion, wolf] that block the pilgrim's path as symbolising three specific sins: lust, pride and avarice, but I prefer to see in them the three major divisions of Hell. The spotted leopard represents fraud and reigns over the 8th and 9th circles where the fraudulant are punished...

…many thanks for that…..extremely interesting…all I came up with was the leopard men of Sierra Leone….Dante’s Inferno is a far more satisfying inspirational source

….the reason I ask is that in Tim Tate’s Children for the Devil – the foundational text of the satanic “industry” he prints 2 apparently separate interviews with carers of children who suddenley – quite spontaneusly – start coming out with details of SRA…and both mention a “leopard man” which is quite an odd common factor between 2 quite unrelated cases , about which he makes no comment :

1) South London, 12 August 1988 with Janie, mother of alleged abuse victimes Laura (3) and Bobby (2) p28-32

2) West Midlands, 12 June 1988 with Julia, mother of Rachel and Timmy (6) p32-35

..what was slightly odd was that there was this story :





…now tbf the named gentleman seems an entirely innocuous eccentric living a hermit like existence on a remote island ..

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/feb/10/stephenkhan.theobserver

…but it did raise the issue of whether the symbolism meant anything to the satanically-inclined….maybe the sort of weird synchronicity that keeps conspiracy nuts in business….


I think the whole issue of the dynamic between a therapist / counsellor / social worker and a highly disturbed vulnerable patient is pretty much key to the whole issue in terms of credibility because of the lack of incontrovertible forensic evidence….but is that lack of evidence in itself evidence of the sort of investigatory hurdles that Tim Tate examines in relation to the ground-zero British SRA case 1986 Nottingham-Broxtowe case – his allegations about which led to the book being withdrawn…

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/tatecole.htm

……Tate’s version of events is that things went tits-up between the lead detective on the case & the social workers on the child protection team – Team 4 – led by Judith Dawson when the kids – the usual council estate clients of such a service - started to describe going to “posh houses” with swimming pools & their stories began to be corroborated by adult witnesses being held separately…

….whether they were coaching / leading the witnesses as alleged ….I just find it difficult to ascribe all the cases in the literature to that…although I think that rather than saying that hysteria develops its possible that someone dealing with a victim can almost be “traumatised by proxy” – esp if they are a highly empathetic individual – there is a quote to that sort of effect in Ross although can’t now find it…

I can’t otherwise see the motive for hard-pressed social workers with massive case-loads to actually expend effort looking for such hugely complicated evidence……..a lot of the cases in the literature what is striking is that they will swear absolutly blind that – after some period of time in gaining trust the victim starts to volunteer information without any prompting or foreknowledge on their part to their carers…often foster-parents…about “witch-parties” etc etc ….assuming they were going to be disbelieved, grossed out or even the fear that they are incriminating themselves as “guilty” – as a common part of the story is the fact they are forced to participate in the “rituals” and actually stick the knife into the baby, eat the flesh etc etc – the idea of doing it to somehow seek approval seems unlikely although when gross neglect has occurred then the sort of attention and concern elicited by such a revelation might well be a motive….

Infact the adopted daughter of the researcher Sara Scott ( “siobhan” ) was just one of these cases & features as one of the case-studies in her book :

 

[hot air baboon]

Disturbance in children is a well-researched phenomenon, and one that doesn't require physical violence or abuse in order to occur. Cognitive and emotional development can be retarded and/or damaged by neglect, or by purely-verbal violence

Ross also says :

“Satanic cults are a problem , whether they are real or not : if they don’t exist, the survivor pseudo-memories pose a serious problem about the reality of all childhood trauma memories.”

…this is a 1995 book though….has understanding moved on since or is Ross suspect..? I understand he may have some sort of connections to Scientology and deals with some of the more outre areas like MK Ultra etc…

Another snippet, from Diane Core’s book Chasing Satan

“In 1987, accompanied by Conservative parliamentarian Geoffrey Dickens, I visited the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Lambeth Palace to deliver a dossier of evidence on the problem of vicars who molest children.”

....so yet another Dickens dossier…wonder how many he actually produced…?

re the Friends of Hecate…there’s an interesting theory about its origins

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread231052/pg1#pid17283149

the Orthodox Temple of the Prince

….seem a pretty dodgy lot….Raymond “Ramon” Bogarde did time for a sex offence and apparently operated a “special” calendar whereby the girl being…ahem… “initiated” was 18 according to their reckoning – actual age – take your pick


Anon, Niger Liber Benelus, Exoteric Lex, Orthodox Temple of the Prince 1986 Revised Ed LF 253 leaves printed on one side, some hand coloured diagrams, duplicated sheets in card binder. Introduction associates it with Prof R. Shareth & Ramon, in fact written by Ray Bogarde. It is substantial account of teachings & practices of Orthodox Temple of the Prince, or New Order of Satanic Templars or Benelist Satanists. Through George Brooke (from W.B.Crow) these may have had some Gnostic Catholic Church succession though this is not mentioned. The author joined the Order a few years after the Second World War. There appears to have been some conflict with the branch represented by this work parting company with other temples associated with coloured scenes operating prostitution rings and sex clubs.

http://www.lashtal.com/portal/news/1051-1050-old-news.html


….this was one hell of a weird story aswell….placing the whole issue slap bang in the middle of Kincora territory…


Satanic panic: how British agents stoked supernatural fears in Troubles

Stories about black masses leaked to press in effort to link paramilitary attacks to the paranormal, study reveals

Henry McDonald, Ireland correspondent
The Guardian, Thursday 9 October 2014 17.10 BST

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/09/satanic-panic-british-agents-stoked-fears-troubles


British military intelligence agents in Northern Ireland used fears about demonic possessions, black masses and witchcraft as part of a psychological war against emerging armed groups in the Troubles in the 1970s, a study says.

Prof Richard Jenkins, from Sheffield University, spoke to military intelligence officers, including the head of the army’s “black operations” in Northern Ireland, Captain Colin Wallace.

Wallace told Jenkins that they deliberately stoked up a satanic panic from 1972 to 1974, even placing black candles and upside-down crucifixes in derelict buildings in some of Belfast’s war zones.

Then, army press officers leaked stories to newspapers about black masses and satanic rituals taking place from republican Ardoyne in north Belfast to the loyalist-dominated east of the city.

In Jenkins’s book, Black Magic and Bogeymen, Wallace admitted that the “psych-ops” branch of military intelligence exploited public fear of satanism stoked by films such as The Exorcist and The Devil Rides Out.

Wallace told Jenkins that by whipping up devil-worshipping paranoia, they created the idea that the emerging paramilitary movements and the murder campaigns they were engaged in had unleashed evil forces across Northern Irish society.

Wallace said his Information Policy group, based at military headquarters in Thiepval barracks, Lisburn, hit upon the idea of summoning the devil as a way to discredit paramilitary organisations.

“It was quite clear that the church, both the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant church, even for the paramilitaries, held a fair degree of influence,” Wallace said. “So we were looking for something that would be regarded with abhorrence really by the two communities, and at the same time would be something that paramilitaries couldn’t justify, and also would be in many ways seen as a reason why some of the outrages were taking place.

 

[ViolentPanda]

…..many thanks for those who read & responded – much appreciated……

…I haven’t been down this labyrinthine rabbit-hole for quite a while …..had a big stack of books on the subject , some I’d never really read properly…..but man there’s some crazy fascinating and scary stuff in there that really gets inside your head – not in a way that’s entirely healthy …

That's a value judgement on your part, nothing more, nothing less. I've been researching the issue for more than 20 years, and researching child abuse per se for more than a decade, yet my mental health is sound. That's mostly because I don't invest my research with my personal feelings, unlike you.

I think the denial / anti SRA case has the definite possibility of throwing the baby out with the silver chalice full of goats-blood….some of the hard-core denialism seems a bit strident whilst there’s a more wooly man-in-the-street denial that really doesn’t go much further than the idea lacks credibilty because its so extreme & “that sort of thing” couldn’t possibly happen on its own terms

The "man on the street" is unlikely to want to go much further than thinking that the idea lacks credibility. That, in and of itself, isn't a bad position to take, unless you believe that something as supposedly prevalent can be covered up to the degree that little or no evidence has ever been found to substantiate many of the claims made with regard to SRA.
As someone who's been on the "occult scene" on and off since the early 1980s, and who has mixed with everyone from Wiccans to Benelists and Chaotes, I'm not aware of any ritualised and/or systemic abuse of children taking place at all, let alone as a necessary ritual practice by any cult, sect or coven. That doesn't mean that ritualised abuse doesn't occur, but (contrary to what the likes of Diane Core and Valerie Sinasson claim) it doesn't indicate that abuse takes place, but is covered up by a vast Satanic conspiracy, either.

I don’t think the SRA scenario actually involves any wild extrapolation from known and accepted data-points of transgressive behaviour – and there is actually nothing in the SRA mythos that you could say hasn’t happened at some place at some time in some circumstances…I’ve read about 2 multi-generational incest cults in the last couple of days, then add in everything from the Solar Temple slaughtering babies to people like Jeffery Dahmer / Andrei Chikilato …......if you accept that people are basically pretty much “..capable of anything…“ then all we’re really arguing about is motive…

So basically you've assembled a framework supporting SRA as not just possible but probable, and done so from extrapolating that serial killers who masked their work in Satanic guise, the abhorrent yet rare occurrence of multi-generational incest and the (uncorroborated) actions of the Solar Temple prove that such evil is possible.

 

[C A Forbes]

I would like to say for local knowledge, I live West Yorkshire and would like to exonerate myself of rumors and Chinese whispers, the Bone Carved Bear Tooth or Bear Claw necklace is significantly symbolically different to the Jaguar Tooth, the Bone Craved Bear Tooth is from the First Nations American Indian Warrior Religion of the tribes, I am saying this because some of locally the monotheist minds are assuming the Bone Carved Bear Tooth or Bear Claw necklace as a symbol of the devil that is not so, they are not a symbol of the devil, the Bone Carved Bear Tooth or Bear Claw is a symbols of the Chiefs or Braves strength and also accomplishments in a phrase the Warrior’s/Brave’s status, you can find these bone carvings throughout history from buffalo to bear in indigenous America, this I have to state since the associating recognition of the Jaguar Tooth Necklace worn by the Aztec Warrior Priest Casts embody considerable different doctrines of belief than would say the Crow or the or Apache, should anyone already have a good knowledge of early American history they will know they without offence there are no Jaguars in America and will know the history of pre-conquistadors Aztecs and Mayans host different meanings to the American Indians , so in conclusion to exonerate myself of any satanic tags, the Bone Craved Bear tooth or Bear Claw necklace is not symbolic of the devil they are symbolic of the Chiefs office or Braves Strength and for information’s sake it is worth knowing that the Aztecs and Mayans like Wiccans believed that by sacrificing those they had chosen as an offering the people would prosper in wealth and their land would flourish and yield crop, that actual concept of the devil and evil was not actually any part of the worship of associational belief. So to refresh the Bone Carved Bear Tooth or Bear Claw necklace being made of real bone obviously is not a symbolically denoting the association with the devil but the Warrior and Brave.

 

[elbows]

Bone Carved full stops are in short supply.

 

[hot air baboon]

So basically you've assembled a framework supporting SRA as not just possible but probable, and done so from extrapolating that serial killers who masked their work in Satanic guise, the abhorrent yet rare occurrence of multi-generational incest and the (uncorroborated) actions of the Solar Temple prove that such evil is possible.

.....don't think that's at all a fair summary of what I put.........how is the Solar Temple data uncorroborated - the baby was ritually murdered for "occult" reasons...

....I believe instances happen that go beyond simple "lone-nut" offenders but don't see how that requires extrapolation beyond known criminal activities.....how many unicorns need to be found to prove the existence of unicorns....



....if anything it proves that the "satanism" element is in some ways a red herring although I believe on the surface it could be construed as potentially a more dangerous belief system than 60's Jesus-freakery like The Children of God although that is a full on child abuse cult in everyhing but name....Ray Bogarde ( "Ramon" ) of the Orthodox Temple of the Prince was done for sex offences against girls & was busily "initiating" under age girls...the evidence against Aquino seems highly compromsing .....


recent - typcially nebulous mention here :

http://nyenquirer.uk/jeremy-cyril-jimmy-ray-peter-alarming-similarities/

As a result, the NYE team were able to pass on information relating to reports concerning the loss of a girl’s life at a location in Whitby in the late 1970s. Earlier this year, a Police search was made in Whitby for a body, with negative results. Rumours nevertheless persist in Whitby, that ‘satanic rituals’ used to go on at those premises in the 1970s, attended occasionally by Savile and Jaconelli.

 

[contracycle]

Oh, well, rumours persist. That's open and shut, bang 'em up and throw away the key.

 

[Lurdan]

I note the North Yorks 'Enquirer' fails to mention the well documented accounts of vampire activity in the Whitby area. Oversight ? Or a cunning and sinister attempt to divert our attention from the real occult threat ?

I guess its rude of me to mock but better that than I express the anger I feel when I read the conclusion to this utter bollocks :

Operation Midland is the Metropolitan Police investigation into allegations that up to three children were murdered by members of the alleged Westminster paedophile-ring. Which included Savile and Smith.

Following the failure of North Yorkshire Police to respond to our email, we emailed our contact in the Metropolitan Police and asked him to arrange for Operation Midland to get in touch. Officers from Operation Midland responded immediately. A classic example of a prompt and professional response to a potential source of intelligence. If only North Yorkshire Police were that interested.

As a result, the NYE team were able to pass on information relating to reports concerning the loss of a girl’s life at a location in Whitby in the late 1970s. Earlier this year, a Police search was made in Whitby for a body, with negative results. Rumours nevertheless persist in Whitby, that ‘satanic rituals’ used to go on at those premises in the 1970s, attended occasionally by Savile and Jaconelli.

Other information was also passed on which we are not releasing for operational and humanitarian reasons.

So not content with writing a feeble compilation of factoids and nonsense this wanker in North Yorkshire is actually boasting about wasting police time.

 

[hot air baboon]

Or a cunning and sinister attempt to divert our attention from the real occult threat ?

...the cover-up dynamic is an important element in the SRA story but doesn't particulalry require buying into a sinister conspiracy....if the evidence of "normal" abuse is sufficiently strong to get convictions then the risk of an offender getting off by muddying the waters / gilding the lily with SRA stuff that is likely to be met with "man-in-the-street" denial by Juries means that evidence is likely to be left out...

....this is apparently what happened in the Nottingham-Broxtowe case - where the SRA evidence was gathered by foster-parents in a passive way - not dragged out by zealous social workers as often characterised in these cases :

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dlheb/jetrepor2.htm

The Form of the Disclosures

The children were not interviewed formally by social workers but the foster parents kept diaries recording anything unusual that the children said or did.

It is important to realise that contrary to normal disclosure work, we do not have "a story" informing us of Who? Where? When? How? The children have never been formally interviewed on the "Satanic" allegations recorded in the diaries except for claims of murders on a boat in December 1988. The nature of the disclosures, therefore, is what might be termed a "flow of consciousness" rather then any connected story. For example, in a normal disclosure you might have a story in which a child roughly indicates when it was taken on a journey to a house, how it was taken, who it was with, where it was and what happened there.

Although it has been stated that social workers were convinced by the number of children telling the same story the significant diaries really reduce to four children in three foster homes.

...secondly if it was all proved then the defence is going to immediately be pleading psyciatric / medical mitigation to get the defendant a psychiatric hospital somewhere rather than slopping out on Rule 43...

 

[contracycle]

....this is apparently what happened in the Nottingham-Broxtowe case - where the SRA evidence was gathered by foster-parents in a passive way - not dragged out by zealous social workers as often characterised in these cases :

This doesn't help your case at all; because it may well be those foster parents who hold deeply religious views in which the devil and his satanist minions are peering over everyone's shoulder. It seems far less likely that professional social workers would leap to the same sorts of conclusion.

The reality is that this was no more that fundamentalist christion fear-mongering at best, and cynical exploitation of real child abuse by militant christians at worst.

 

[Sirena]

....this is apparently what happened in the Nottingham-Broxtowe case - where the SRA evidence was gathered by foster-parents in a passive way - not dragged out by zealous social workers as often characterised in these cases :
..

It was Nottingham where the Chief Constable wrote to the Home Secretary asking for help in stopping the lunacy that was going on in and around Social Services.

 

[Dillinger4]

 

[Sirena]

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I know nothing about any of this but I do recall 'Children for the devil' being published & author being interviewed on the radio. I also remembered something else about the book being subsequently withdrawn. A bit of googling brings up this if its of any interest. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/tatecole.htm

 

[Lurdan]

I know nothing about any of this but I do recall 'Children for the devil' being published & author being interviewed on the radio. I also remembered something else about the book being subsequently withdrawn. A bit of googling brings up this if its of any interest. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/tatecole.htm

Tate appears to have rebranded himself as a more all-purpose sexual abuse expert including co-authoring a couple of entries in what might be described as the 'reality porn' genre.

 

[Sirena]

To understand the Satanic Ritual Child Abuse hysteria, there are a few places you could go to.

There is a series of magazines (maybe held at the British Library, some of which I still have in my loft....) published by ORCRO (Occult Reponse To The Christian Response To Occultism) in the late 1980s, looking at the rash of Satanic abuse allegations. All the ORCRO people were involved in occultism and who would have, almost certainly, known or heard if there was child abuse happening on an organised scale. http://www.smwane.dk/content/view/90/

'The Lure Of The Sinister' by Gareth Medway looks at the history of belief in the existence of Satanism, Black Masses and associated hysterias. (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/oct/06/historybooks.highereducation).

Professor Jean La Fontaine was commissioned to write a report by the Government. She investigated 100 cases and found no evidence at all (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Speak-Devil-Satanic-Contemporary-England/dp/0521629349).

 

[ViolentPanda]

.....don't think that's at all a fair summary of what I put.........how is the Solar Temple data uncorroborated - the baby was ritually murdered for "occult" reasons...

....I believe instances happen that go beyond simple "lone-nut" offenders but don't see how that requires extrapolation beyond known criminal activities.....how many unicorns need to be found to prove the existence of unicorns....



....if anything it proves that the "satanism" element is in some ways a red herring although I believe on the surface it could be construed as potentially a more dangerous belief system than 60's Jesus-freakery like The Children of God although that is a full on child abuse cult in everyhing but name....Ray Bogarde ( "Ramon" ) of the Orthodox Temple of the Prince was done for sex offences against girls & was busily "initiating" under age girls...the evidence against Aquino seems highly compromsing .....


recent - typcially nebulous mention here :

http://nyenquirer.uk/jeremy-cyril-jimmy-ray-peter-alarming-similarities/

As a result, the NYE team were able to pass on information relating to reports concerning the loss of a girl’s life at a location in Whitby in the late 1970s. Earlier this year, a Police search was made in Whitby for a body, with negative results. Rumours nevertheless persist in Whitby, that ‘satanic rituals’ used to go on at those premises in the 1970s, attended occasionally by Savile and Jaconelli.

You're pulling the same old shit every conspiracy theorist since the dawn of time - spinning bits and pieces of information that are only connected by a word or a description, and weaving a whole cloth from them.
If you get off on doing so, then more power to your masturbation, but don't pretend that you're doing decent research, or that your primary sources are particularly credible.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To understand the Satanic Ritual Child Abuse hysteria, there are a few places you could go to.

There is a series of magazines (maybe held at the British Library, some of which I still have in my loft....) published by ORCRO (Occult Reponse To The Christian Response To Occultism) in the late 1980s, looking at the rash of Satanic abuse allegations. All the ORCRO people were involved in occultism and who would have, almost certainly, known or heard if there was child abuse happening on an organised scale. http://www.smwane.dk/content/view/90/

'The Lure Of The Sinister' by Gareth Medway looks at the history of belief in the existence of Satanism, Black Masses and associated hysterias. (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/oct/06/historybooks.highereducation).

Professor Jean La Fontaine was commissioned to write a report by the Government. She investigated 100 cases and found no evidence at all (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Speak-Devil-Satanic-Contemporary-England/dp/0521629349).

I'm not sure that hot air baboon is at all interested in the reality. They seem to prefer the prurient fantasy.

 

[Sirena]

I'm not sure that hot air baboon is at all interested in the reality. They seem to prefer the prurient fantasy.

That's why I posted the magazine covers......

 

[hot air baboon]

...oo-er....hilarious...what a lark eh..!

...2 serious books for anyone interested...

 

[Sirena]

...oo-er....hilarious...what a lark eh..!

...2 serious books for anyone interested...

Come on! This whole thing was investigated to its max in the day and NOTHING was found. Nothing!

Since then, in this country, there has been a case of two old geezers in Cornwall (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-20705898) claiming to be wiccans to get young girlies into their clutches. They are both in prison now. They were not wiccans.

And there has been this case of a manipulative pervert, using occultism as a control mechanism. All of these are now in prison. None of these were known to have any connections to any other groups or students of the occult. (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/satanic-sex-cult-face-years-1845296).

In both of these cases, the perverts used occultism as a lure, probably inspired by the hysteria of the 1980s.

 

[hot air baboon]

…..again a bit unfair on my preferences vp…its not so clear cut as conspiracy theory vs “the truth” – if only….

My interest isn’t prurient but it bothers me to think of children being terrorised – that paedophiles were known to circulate samizdat-style wrtitings on techniques of grooming & abusing children from birth – presumably one of the raison d’etres of PIE – & the same things exist on cult style control…

…..an explanation that evangelical christian’s managed to infiltrate & subvert the child protection branch of the social services could also be characterised as a conspiracy theory ( how else are they bending our institutions to their will with this fiendish power of theirs ) & not very easy to see the Police that brought us Rotherham & the Westminster scandals as bona fide actors in this scenario either…..

Interesting article on Jean La Fontaine

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/94959.article

La Fontaine says: "I told them beforehand that to talk about 'exposing the myth' was unfortunate and overdramatic. I didn't find any evidence in the 84 alleged cases which I investigated. My conclusion was that there was no evidence of satanic abuse in these cases."


I thought she had done 100 cases but it was 84 –compared to the scale of abuse going on nationally that is a very small point on which to rest a whole inverted pyramid of certainty….



Ridiculing the idea that, in contrast with other societies, we in the West live in a rational secular world, she points to the suspension of critical judgement "now that we have beliefs in the devil popping up, and evangelical Christianity taking a very strong hold on things, and people behaving with immense, staggering irrationality".


…..amen to that…but apparently we have to believe that irrational beliefs in devils can only exist in people hunting for abusers but never in those doing the abusing…

Michael Salter is one of the wiki editors on this area - their discussion board is an interesting source of debate on this issue :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Satanic_ritual_abuse/Archive_1

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's why I posted the magazine covers......

TBF, I'm sure we've both been to "skyclad" events, and know that most of the time the celebrants aren't even vaguely erotically-stimulating!
I've never "got"/understood the prurience angle, 'cos there's not much of a frisson to be had from imagining a group of people dancing nekkid in a field, or even performing The Great Rite on a church altar, frankly. Maybe I'm jaded?

 

[ViolentPanda]

...oo-er....hilarious...what a lark eh..!

What, calling you on the fact that your "evidence" is about as well-assembled and credible as sit on a shingle?
Don't try and make criticism of your poor efforts out to be criticism of the subject under discussion. To do so merely makes you look more threadbare.

...2 serious books for anyone interested...

I own and have read the Salter book. It has very little (it's a fairly short book) about ritual abuse per se, it's about all types of organised abuse, and features straightforward "paedophile network" organised abuse a lot more than it does anything about ritual abuse.
As for Scott's book, I own and have read that too. It too doesn't make a case for the Satanic Ritual Abuse, merely for the existence of abuse of children under the rubric of "ritual abuse".
I have quite a few books on sexual abuse, horrible subject though it is, but not because I believe conspiracy theories - it's because my postgrad qualifications are in criminal psychology.

 

[ViolentPanda]

…..again a bit unfair on my preferences vp…its not so clear cut as conspiracy theory vs “the truth” – if only….

My interest isn’t prurient but it bothers me to think of children being terrorised – that paedophiles were known to circulate samizdat-style wrtitings on techniques of grooming & abusing children from birth – presumably one of the raison d’etres of PIE – & the same things exist on cult style control…

…..an explanation that evangelical christian’s managed to infiltrate & subvert the child protection branch of the social services could also be characterised as a conspiracy theory ( how else are they bending our institutions to their will with this fiendish power of theirs ) & not very easy to see the Police that brought us Rotherham & the Westminster scandals as bona fide actors in this scenario either…..

Interesting article on Jean La Fontaine

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/94959.article

La Fontaine says: "I told them beforehand that to talk about 'exposing the myth' was unfortunate and overdramatic. I didn't find any evidence in the 84 alleged cases which I investigated. My conclusion was that there was no evidence of satanic abuse in these cases."


I thought she had done 100 cases but it was 84 –compared to the scale of abuse going on nationally that is a very small point on which to rest a whole inverted pyramid of certainty….

A pyramid which you're constructing through reference to La Fontaine's research being a "very small point".
How about you elucidate "the scale of abuse going on nationally", and confine your elucidation to "Satanic Ritual Abuse", which was after all, what La Fontaine's research pertains to, rather than sexual abuse per se.

 

[contracycle]

…..amen to that…but apparently we have to believe that irrational beliefs in devils can only exist in people hunting for abusers but never in those doing the abusing…

See, I think you've got totally the wrong end of the stick there.

The driving idea behind allegations not just of incidents but organised networks doing this stuff was not that there were abusers who also indulged in a bit of satanic cosplay, but rather that the secular world was riddled with satanic secret societies, who were abusing children systematically. In this conception there was in fact no need for there to be any real sexual attraction on the part of the abusers toward chidlren; the children were mandated as necessary to the satanic rituals for various "magical" and ritualistic reasons.

This was also the period in which things like Dungeons & Dragons were being excoriated as gateways to occultism and satanism. A campaigning organisation called Mothers Against Dungeons & Dragons was active in trying to have the hobby banned, or at least restricted. Jack Chick produced a notorious pamphlet called Dark Dungeons outlining these alleged dangers (and to put Chick into perspective, he has another one in which he calls the Catholic communion wafer "the devil's cookie"). Dark Dungeons can be found here for the curious:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

Other children's toys and cartoon shows were also accused of being Satanic recruitment tools, seducing innocent kiddies into the occult. I recall reading one account about a guy who burnt his son's He-Man toys by pouring benzine on them, and his astonishment at seeing a blue flame go up, which was clear evidence that the toy had been demonically possessed. And this stuff in turn itself grew out of the somewhat older idea that heavy metal bands were commonly recording secret subliminal messages aimed at teens on their records.

So the real issue never was about the idea that there might be some abusers with pretensions or delusions to occultism; it was about the alleged pervasive and systematic subversion of secular society by agents of the devil. It was, in short, a good old fashioned witch-hunt. The prominence of supposed instances of child abuse was partly because it was emotionally engaging, and partly because it was for that reason more likely to get traction with the secular authorities in a way that accusing He-Man of satanic brainwashing could not.

So even if you could find solid evidence of one, or ten or even a hundred cases of bad people doing nasty things while wearing a goat mask, it would in no way support the original contention that it was rife within secular society, that the devil's minions were everywhere, and that tens of thousands of children were being ritually abused every year in America alone.