[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Pickman's model]

You're assuming it didn't last year, to a greater or lesser extent. And there's been fights and feuds playing out through public events in the anarchist scene since the 19th century, including fistfights at the London event almost every year. All this isn't nearly as special as people seem to think.

yeh but so many of the other feuds and rows have been at least entertaining for onlookers.

what we need next time is a choice between bareknuckle and glove and a ring for the contenders.

 

[Wilf]

You're assuming it didn't last year, to a greater or lesser extent. And there's been fights and feuds playing out through public events in the anarchist scene since the 19th century, including fistfights at the London event almost every year. All this isn't nearly as special as people seem to think.

Yeah, I know. I've been at a couple of the battles over the last 15 years or so. There were a few themes in common for a couple of them, both predictable and unpredictable spats - even attempts to twat a certain/former urbanite. But this seems a bit different, something set up with 2 sides, 2 positions, fully loaded up with absolutes. It's something I wouldn't want to organise an event around or, for that matter, even come up with a form of words as to how the issue would be dealt with.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, I know. I've been at a couple of the battles over the last 15 years or so. There were a few themes in common for a couple of them, both predictable and unpredictable spats - even attempts to twat a certain/former urbanite. But this seems a bit different, something set up with 2 sides, 2 positions, fully loaded up with absolutes. It's something I wouldn't want to organise an event around or, for that matter, even come up with a form of words as to how the issue would be dealt with.

'anyone attempting to threaten, harass or intimidate others will be ejected'

 

[The39thStep]

Opportunity for The Black Hand to relaunch his book fairs ?

 

[Wilf]

Opportunity for The Black Hand to relaunch his book fairs ?

Working Class Book Fairs.

 

[andysays]

'anyone attempting to threaten, harass or intimidate others will be ejected'

Questions of what constitutes 'attempting to threaten etc' very much open to disagreement though

 

[LDC]

One of the differences with the disagreement at the London Anarchist Bookfair last year compared to disagreements in previous years is that this particular conflict (and the underlying politics) exist outside the confines of the Bookfair and is also going on among a much wider number of people (and in wider society too) whereas many of the previous fights/conflicts are a bit more boundaried between space and people.

Can't see how this isn't going to implode at another event soon. It's bubbling along in all sorts of places and ways elsewhere.

 

[Pickman's model]

Questions of what constitutes 'attempting to threaten etc' very much open to disagreement though

and thus to ejection

 

[Wilf]

One of the differences with the disagreement at the London Anarchist Bookfair last year compared to disagreements in previous years is that this particular conflict (and the underlying politics) exist outside the confines of the Bookfair and is also going on among a much wider number of people (and in wider society too) whereas many of the previous fights/conflicts are a bit more boundaried between space and people.

Can't see how this isn't going to implode at another event soon. It's bubbling along in all sorts of places and ways elsewhere.

Yep. As a minimum there would be protests about group x being allowed to book a room. Like you say, the bookfair being influenced by no platforming/safe spacing from outside the bookfair.

 

[andysays]

and thus to ejection

At work ATM. I'll post more later maybe.

 

[The39thStep]

Working Class Book Fairs.

Refused said - "No, The Black Hand/gangster I do not want to distribute flyers for this event."

Why?

It is too working class for you by the look of it. You obviously care little for the N.U.M. who sponsored the event or the other stalls and groups who are putting effort into spreading working class ideas. The IWW carried an advert for it in the latest edition of their magazine, and it leaves you as a reactionary anti working class movement fool. Your choice though

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Yeah, I know. I've been at a couple of the battles over the last 15 years or so. There were a few themes in common for a couple of them, both predictable and unpredictable spats - even attempts to twat a certain/former urbanite. But this seems a bit different, something set up with 2 sides, 2 positions, fully loaded up with absolutes. It's something I wouldn't want to organise an event around or, for that matter, even come up with a form of words as to how the issue would be dealt with.

It’s not that complicated. Just announce in advance that anyone turning up to do a bit of transphobic proselytizing will get the same response as anyone turning up to spread racist ideas. That’s pretty much inevitably going to be the norm in a couple of year’s time anyway so anyone organizing an activist event may as well skip past the bickering.

 

[Wilf]

It’s not that complicated. Just announce in advance that anyone turning up to do a bit of transphobic proselytizing will get the same response as anyone turning up to spread racist ideas. That’s pretty much inevitably going to be the norm in a couple of year’s time anyway so anyone organizing an activist event may as well skip past the bickering.

Sounds straightforward.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Sounds straightforward.

It is. It’s only complicated if your starting point is that transphobes have to be accommodated to some extent. They don’t.

 

[Wilf]

It is. It’s only complicated if your starting point is that transphobes have to be accommodated to some extent. They don’t.

I've no desire to revive the substantive argument on this thread, so I'll just stick to the Bookfair. Your absolutism does nothing to move this on and certainly doesn't add up to a solution for potential future organisers. If there's to be any progress in the movement it requires dialogue, it requires groups talking to each other, it requires some difficult stuff. I can't personally see that there is a way forward and its no surprise the organisers have left off for at least a year. But just shouting 'terfs out' does nothing. Who knows, you might be right, the next attempt to run a bookfair in London might take your line, but it won't actually resolve anything.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I've no desire to revive the substantive argument on this thread, so I'll just stick to the Bookfair. Your absolutism does nothing to move this on and certainly doesn't add up to a solution for potential future organisers. If there's to be any progress in the movement it requires dialogue, it requires groups talking to each other, it requires some difficult stuff. I can't personally see that there is a way forward and its no surprise the organisers have left off for at least a year. But just shouting 'terfs out' does nothing. Who knows, you might be right, the next attempt to run a bookfair in London might take your line, but it won't actually resolve anything.

No this is all horseshit. Holding a book fair doesn’t require dialogue with racists, different groups talking with racists or “some difficult stuff” involving accommodating racists. It doesn’t require any of that with transphobes either. All you have to do is announce they aren’t welcome and throw them out the door if they try to peddle their shit. It only seems complex and difficult and intractable to you because you think transphobes should be accommodated.

As for whether it will resolve anything, throwing people whose politics are about spreading transphobia out of radical movements isn’t just a resolution, it’s a good resolution and it’s one that will inevitably happen.

 

[Wilf]

No this is all horseshit. Holding a book fair doesn’t require dialogue with racists, different groups talking with racists or “some difficult stuff” involving accommodating racists. It doesn’t require any of that with transphobes either. All you have to do is announce they aren’t welcome and throw them out the door if they try to peddle their shit. It only seems complex and difficult and intractable to you because you think transphobes should be accommodated.

As for whether it will resolve anything, throwing people whose politics are about spreading transphobia out of radical movements isn’t just a resolution, it’s a good resolution and it’s one that will inevitably happen.

The comparison with racism is just childish and an attempt to out-absolute anything that anybody could come back at you with. It's ridiculous and it adds to the style of politics that has got us to this point. I'm in favour of full trans rights and recognition. But then I recognise what some women are saying about self-identification not being the same as female socialisation and lived experience. Given that I haven't scampered into your absolutist camp, that no doubt makes me transphobic, a purveyor of hate speech and as bad as a racist. By contrast, I'd point out that I'm neither trans nor female and so think it's best if I don't start pronouncing or drawing battle lines. Faced with that kind of situation, the job of organising something like a bookfair is difficult, maybe impossible. It isn't something that can be reduced down to simple shouty phrases, this is political stuff and its personal stuff.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The comparison with racism is just childish and an attempt to out-absolute anything that anybody could come back at you with. It's ridiculous and it adds to the style of politics that has got us to this point. I'm in favour of full trans rights and recognition. But then I recognise what some women are saying about self-identification not being the same as female socialisation and lived experience. Given that I haven't scampered into your absolutist camp, that no doubt makes me transphobic, a purveyor of hate speech and as bad as a racist. By contrast, I'd point out that I'm neither trans nor female and so think it's best if I don't start pronouncing or drawing battle lines. Faced with that kind of situation, the job of organising something like a bookfair is difficult, maybe impossible. It isn't something that can be reduced down to simple shouty phrases, this is political stuff and its personal stuff.

A long winded way of saying that, yes, you think that transphobes need to be accommodated. The whole mess seems impossible to resolve to you because your starting point is that a resolution involves some kind of compromise between trans people and bigots that allows both to participate. Something that you at the same time realise is impossible. You are right on that part. It is impossible. But in fact the issue can be resolved simply by excluding transphobes. That’s not at all impossible, as a solution it’s not intractable or wildly complicated and ultimately, across radical movements, that’s what is happening.

 

[butchersapron]

It's OK. The socialist party are doing one. Late to the parade they promise the most working class one yet.

 

[Wilf]

A long winded way of saying that, yes, you think that transphobes need to be accommodated. The whole mess seems impossible to resolve to you because your starting point is that a resolution involves some kind of compromise between trans people and bigots that allows both to participate. Something that you at the same time realise is impossible. You are right on that part. It is impossible. But in fact the issue can be resolved simply by excluding transphobes. That’s not at all impossible, as a solution it’s not intractable or wildly complicated and ultimately, across radical movements, that’s what is happening.

No. I'm not a radfem, but I am prepared to listen to women on here who want to talk about things like services and women only spaces. I might not actually agree with them on all the issues raised, I certainly don't agree with those who refer to trans women with the capslock as MEN. But are you even able to countenance that some women on here and beyond, people like Helen Steel, should be listened to? Given that your approach is to refer to them as equivalent to racists means that you don't. Frankly, your approach is just immature - personally and politically.

 

[chilango]

Do the SP do large scale public events equivalent to the bookfair or Marxism?

 

[DotCommunist]

Do the SP do large scale public events equivalent to the bookfair or Marxism?

the Socialism conference, thinks thats a party conference as well tho

 

[chilango]

the Socialism conference, thinks thats a party conference as well tho

This?

Be interesting to hear if Nigel Irritable's simple "No Transphobes" policy was used. Was it needed? If so how did it go? If not, why not?

 

[DotCommunist]

I dunno if the irish SP have the same conference as the UK SP- you'd have thought ireland would have its own.

 

[Lurdan]

Late to the parade they promise the most working class one yet.

In fairness that part isn't so difficult. They only have to get some working class people to run the stalls and do the security, and mostly stay away themselves. Prefigurative socialism in action.

This discussion recalls to mind a half serious notion many years ago about how instead of an anarchist book fair there should be an anarchist boot fair. It would solve some of the current dilemmas if instead of worrying about keeping cunts out you just invited them all in and then kicked shit out of them.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

No. I'm not a radfem, but I am prepared to listen to women on here who want to talk about things like services and women only spaces. I might not actually agree with them on all the issues raised, I certainly don't agree with those who refer to trans women with the capslock as MEN. But are you even able to countenance that some women on here and beyond, people like Helen Steel, should be listened to? Given that your approach is to refer to them as equivalent to racists means that you don't. Frankly, your approach is just immature - personally and politically.

I’m not suggesting that you are a radfem. But your starting point is the idea that the TERF subset of radfems need to be accommodated. That’s a political choice. They don’t in fact have to be accommodated. You want them to be, even though you realise that they can’t be without fucking over trans people. So it all seems complicated and impossible and you end up posting about how hard everything will be.

And no, I don’t think that transphobes should be listened to. I think that in any radical movement they should be given the choice of shutting up or fucking off. As you are aware though, most transphobes are men and this “listening to women” framing is just dishonest rhetoric meant to naturalize the views of a bizarre minority offshoot of radical feminism as the views of “women”.

You don’t have to agree with me about the desirability of accommodating bigots, but it really shouldn’t be controversial to say that accommodating them isn’t an actual necessity. The anarchist movement, such as it is, will get along fine without, for instance, the Green Party politician whose deliberate provocations started this whole row.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

This?

Be interesting to hear if Nigel Irritable's simple "No Transphobes" policy was used. Was it needed? If so how did it go? If not, why not?

As far as I know no transphobes have ever attempted to proselytize at the Socialism event. The last time I know of any wrong uns turning up and getting thrown out it was the Sparts when they started leafleting about abolishing the age of consent some years ago. I’d hope they’d throw out anyone trying to leaflet against trans rights and certainly their official position is pro trans rights, but I can’t say for sure as the issue hasn’t arisen.

I can guarantee that anyone trying it at an SP event in Ireland would be ejected immediately, but there’s no chance of it happening here: TERFery is the British disease.

 

[Athos]

A long winded way of saying that, yes, you think that transphobes need to be accommodated.

Only if you believe that the all "women [who] are saying about self-identification not being the same as female socialisation and lived experience", to whom Wilf referred, are necessarily transphobes. An obviously ridiculous proposition.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Only if you believe that the all "women [who] are saying about self-identification not being the same as female socialisation and lived experience", to whom Wilf referred, are necessarily transphobes.

That depends on whether they are agitating or organizing for that sentiment to have political, social or legal consequences. The problem with the Green Party politician who provoked this row isn’t that she has daft or nasty opinions, but that she was agitating for those opinions to have consequences for other people.

 

[Wilf]

I’m not suggesting that you are a radfem. But your starting point is the idea that the TERF subset of radfems need to be accommodated. That’s a political choice. They don’t in fact have to be accommodated. You want them to be, even though you realise that they can’t be without fucking over trans people. So it all seems complicated and impossible and you end up posting about how hard everything will be.

And no, I don’t think that transphobes should be listened to. I think that in any radical movement they should be given the choice of shutting up or fucking off. As you are aware though, most transphobes are men and this “listening to women” framing is just dishonest rhetoric meant to naturalize the views of a bizarre minority offshoot of radical feminism as the views of “women”.

You don’t have to agree with me about the desirability of accommodating bigots, but it really shouldn’t be controversial to say that accommodating them isn’t an actual necessity. The anarchist movement, such as it is, will get along fine without, for instance, the Green Party politician whose deliberate provocations started this whole row.

You seem to think that if you use the words transphobe and bigot in every post, then everyone who has raised any questions about self identification is a transphobe or bigot - because there's nothing else you can be. No questions to answer, nobody you need to talk to. Trot mindset along with the full on no-platforming and call outs. Yuk.

Perhaps 2 years ago, I was posting stuff on here in bewilderment that women might have concerns about issues around self identification, heath and the rest. I read a bit on here and wasn't converted to a 'terf' position, but did begin to accept there were issues that might not be as straightforward, might be things I hadn't read enough about and were things I haven't experienced. I don't have an answer, I don't have a line (though as mentioned, I'm actually closer to a trans rights position than a 'terf' position if forced to plot it on some bizarre scale). Some of that gets writ large if you trying to plan an event. Sometimes a lack of certainty is healthy.