[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Pickman's model]

yeah yeah. I get it. I am like a dog with a bone. And you love throwing them. This is techically debate. You win.

Yeh you love the vampire castle. Who knows, tomorrow you might share the two points

 

[thisweb]

I dont think thats how British culture works. The British love aristocracy. They look up to people who speak and write well. Look at the public backlash against russel brand. Paxman message was 'What gives you, a working clas cockney, the right to speak'. To this day Brand sis till held in contempt by the vast majority of the British public, including working class activists. Few barely know what he thinks or stands for. Because his class is undesirable, so must be his opinions. His class by the way is either wealthy upity twat who doesnt deserve his money (unlike the toffs who are seen as at least deserving because they speak well) or working class thicko. The British care only about language. Speak well and you will go a long long way, no matter what an asshole you are. This is consistent with 400 years of British history.



.....And I think deep down, a lot of comments on here including your own, demonstrate how deep rooted this is. Ive seen Anarchists do it too. Just as we are all sucked into sexism without even being aware we are doing it. But even pointing this out leads to people just pulling apart your words with a suspicion your stupid or incapable of thinking because you didn't express it just right. So right now we still havnt engaged in the debate about why gender critical feminists views matter.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dont think thats how British culture works. The British love aristocracy. They look up to people who speak and write well. Look at the public backlash against russel brand. Paxman message was 'What gives you, a working clas cockney, the right to speak'. To this day Brand sis till held in contempt by the vast majority of the British public, including working class activists. Few barely know what he thinks or stands for. Because his class is undesirable, so must be his opinions. His class by the way is either wealthy upity twat who doesnt deserve his money (unlike the toffs who are seen as at least deserving because they speak well) or working class thicko. The British care only about language. Speak well and you will go a long long way, no matter what an asshole you are. This is consistent with 400 years of British history.

Russell Brand full of shit - see the threads here about him, even if he has done a few decent things

 

[thisweb]

Yeh you love the vampire castle. Who knows, tomorrow you might share the two points

There are 20 of them. Maybe you will let me know which ones out of the 20 you disagree with. Then I know you actually bothered to read them. And if you agree with them all then why would you want to debate me?

 

[Pickman's model]

There are 20 of them. Maybe you will let me know which ones out of the 20 you disagree with. Then I know you actually bothered to read them. And if you agree with them all then why would you want to debate me?

Yeh. Maybe you'll post them up for all the other people who've asked about them. Bedtime now, sleep tight.

 

[gamerunknown]

Presumably you see how its necessary for anarchist black men to identify as black, when they are fighting or testifying against violence from cops when facing prison?

I've mentioned earlier in this thread that I've found a disconnect between approaches to cultural appropriation and trans issues. There are clear analogies: disparities in outcomes by gender and race, biological and social components. However there are qualitative differences too: the fifth edition of the DSM recognises "gender dysphoria" as a condition, stating that the treatment is social and legal transition to the desired gender. Gender reassignment may help. I don't see the equivalent for race.

To this day Brand sis till held in contempt by the vast majority of the British public, including working class activists.

Sure, he represents something odious to bourgeois media. But when I've seen him dragged it's mostly for plain misogyny - his collaboration with Jonathan Ross as the most commonly cited example (if social views on sex were even slightly more advanced, it wouldn't have even been seen as interesting to bring it up with a woman's grandfather). But there's also this shit and his his stance on cops.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

There are 20 of them. Maybe you will let me know which ones out of the 20 you disagree with. Then I know you actually bothered to read them. And if you agree with them all then why would you want to debate me?

I don’t think that the proposals for changing the gender recognition act equate to “rape culture”.

Do you?

 

[MrSpikey]

Oh gosh you didnt understand what I was saying. Im so sorry for being stupid. I should have said somethign like 'What do you disagree with and why.' But you know exactly what i meant. So dont bother. You just prefer to derail. 'Give me any three written sentences and I can use them to hang any man who wrote them'

I'm happy to confirm that I did understand what you said, and I addressed that.

If you meant to say something else, then go ahead and state that - but assuming that people should somehow have known what you meant to say, rather than what you actually said, is a load of old bollocks.

 

[MrSpikey]

I dont think thats how British culture works. The British love aristocracy.

Very true. The NHS has reported an all time high of forelock-tugging injuries this year

They look up to people who speak and write well.

Yep. It doesn't matter what they say, or what they write, but as long as they do it well, we all look up to them.

To this day Brand sis till held in contempt by the vast majority of the British public, including working class activists. Few barely know what he thinks or stands for.

I for one have quite a few problems with his stance. But I base that on what he has said about his stance, not his background. I'm sure anyone who is interested in the details can find all they need to know in his little red Bookie Wook.

Because his class is undesirable, so must be his opinions.

Well, there certainly is a small section of society that seems to agree with this, but it's not a universal truth.

His class by the way is either wealthy upity twat who doesnt deserve his money (unlike the toffs who are seen as at least deserving because they speak well) or working class thicko. The British care only about language. Speak well and you will go a long long way, no matter what an asshole you are. This is consistent with 400 years of British history.

Thanks your for your input into how we all tick.

It's always good to get a nuanced political analysis from someone who is outside of the hurly-burly of British politics, but is familiar enough with the subject to offer an insightful opinion,

If you ever meet someone like that, will you promise to send them to Urban?

 

[Pickman's model]

Thats why 'TERFS' have to print leaflets. Because nobody wants to hear them talk.

Yeh. That's really what's been said. as I've said above, Yeh 'terfs' have a right to distribute leaflets. And people who disagree with them have a right to challenge them. That should be fairly uncontentious. Should any group be immune from criticism?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok, well theres this thing called feminism. And there is no thing called mannanism. You see women are oppressed by men and fear men. Always have because men oppress women and scare them.

Yeh. Have you heard of masculism?

 

[Pickman's model]

There are 20 of them. Maybe you will let me know which ones out of the 20 you disagree with. Then I know you actually bothered to read them. And if you agree with them all then why would you want to debate me?

yeh. these points would presumably be the long list on the reverse of the leaflet, plus one on the obverse, which imo add up to one point: that the message of the leaflet is the new law should be opposed.

tbh i think it's a poor leaflet, which doesn't reference how the new law proposes to do any of these things. therefore the claims must be taken on trust, and as the group issuing the leaflet has no obvious history this is hard to do. if the leaflet had referenced which sections of the changes would allow the things claimed perhaps it would be worth going through the assertions one by one. but it doesn't. maybe you could share with us where each of these things are mentioned within the planned changes or how they arise from the proposed changes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any six lines written by a man , you can use to hang him .

Yeh. What other richelieu quotes do you like? You've rather worn this one out.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dont think thats how British culture works. The British love aristocracy. They look up to people who speak and write well. Look at the public backlash against russel brand. Paxman message was 'What gives you, a working clas cockney, the right to speak'. To this day Brand sis till held in contempt by the vast majority of the British public, including working class activists. Few barely know what he thinks or stands for. Because his class is undesirable, so must be his opinions. His class by the way is either wealthy upity twat who doesnt deserve his money (unlike the toffs who are seen as at least deserving because they speak well) or working class thicko. The British care only about language. Speak well and you will go a long long way, no matter what an asshole you are. This is consistent with 400 years of British history.

What is it you find so admirable about Russell Brand?

 

[Pickman's model]

But answer came there none

 

[thisweb]

I've mentioned earlier in this thread that I've found a disconnect between approaches to cultural appropriation and trans issues. There are clear analogies: disparities in outcomes by gender and race, biological and social components. However there are qualitative differences too: the fifth edition of the DSM recognises "gender dysphoria" as a condition, stating that the treatment is social and legal transition to the desired gender. Gender reassignment may help. I don't see the equivalent for race.



Sure, he represents something odious to bourgeois media. But when I've seen him dragged it's mostly for plain misogyny - his collaboration with Jonathan Ross as the most commonly cited example (if social views on sex were even slightly more advanced, it wouldn't have even been seen as interesting to bring it up with a woman's grandfather). But there's also this shit and his his stance on cops.

You don't see the equivalent for race? But if it was in the DSM you'd say it was fine? We don't know if Rachel Dolezel had such a condition. Maybe she disnt maybe she did. But gender disphoria, ie treatment through sex change isnt disputed. I think thats fine if it helps. Whats not fine is treating all women by forcing them to believe and accept anyone can be a women if they declare they are. I think its fine to treat schizophrenics, help them with their delusions through medication or anything that helps them feel better. It may include humoring them with their delusions. But to make a law that demands everyone must believe their delusions is something else. Its truly Orwellian. Say five is four, that wombs and vagians have no connection to the word woman or be called an evil terf bitch.

 

[thisweb]

Very true. The NHS has reported an all time high of forelock-tugging injuries this year



Yep. It doesn't matter what they say, or what they write, but as long as they do it well, we all look up to them.



I for one have quite a few problems with his stance. But I base that on what he has said about his stance, not his background. I'm sure anyone who is interested in the details can find all they need to know in his little red Bookie Wook.



Well, there certainly is a small section of society that seems to agree with this, but it's not a universal truth.



Thanks your for your input into how we all tick.

It's always good to get a nuanced political analysis from someone who is outside of the hurly-burly of British politics, but is familiar enough with the subject to offer an insightful opinion,

If you ever meet someone like that, will you promise to send them to Urban?

The red bookie wook that he wrote over a decade ago? You think a man can';t change? You think thats who he is today despite writing and talking about his political awakenings , publicly, and continues to do so. This is the problem ive been talking about. You judge people on one thing they say. Or said. Anarchism is a process , if thats your perspective of brand, you have no idea what you are talking about. About him or what it means to be a person. You seem to want identities over ideas.

 

[thisweb]

Yeh. That's really what's been said. as I've said above, Yeh 'terfs' have a right to distribute leaflets. And people who disagree with them have a right to challenge them. That should be fairly uncontentious. Should any group be immune from criticism?

Nope. We agree wholey on that. Terfs should not be beaten up though. You forgot that little oversight of why women want safe spaces from men.

 

[thisweb]

Yeh. Have you heard of masculism?

yeah whats your point? That feminism is like MRA?

 

[thisweb]

What is it you find so admirable about Russell Brand?

Quite a lot. Listen to some of his recent interviews if you haven't already and make your own opinions. Why do you care what I think of him anyway?

 

[Pickman's model]

Nope. We agree wholey on that. Terfs should not be beaten up though. You forgot that little oversight of why women want safe spaces from men.

You haven't read this thread. An oversight on your part.

 

[Pickman's model]

Quite a lot. Listen to some of his recent interviews if you haven't already and make your own opinions. Why do you care what I think of him anyway?

Because it helps inform what I think of you. When asked what you find admirable about someone, quite a lot is an answer bereft of content. It is vacuous.

 

[Pickman's model]

yeah whats your point? That feminism is like MRA?

No. That your analysis is based on er bollocks. Mannanism? I mean, what the actual fuck? Do you often introduce words with no meaning into discourse as straw creations, or was it just on this occasion?

 

[Pickman's model]

thisweb mannanism ffs 

 

[thisweb]

Because it helps inform what I think of you. When asked what you find admirable about someone, quite a lot is an answer bereft of content. It is vacuous.

Its It would take a book to explain. I dont have the inclination, I'm pretty sure youve made your mind up about me, and probably Brand.

 

[thisweb]

No. That your analysis is based on er bollocks. Mannanism? I mean, what the actual fuck? Do you often introduce words with no meaning into discourse as straw creations, or was it just on this occasion?

It was deliberately made up. There is no such thing. WTF? I think you lost the context (as with almost every comment you make). Although I doubt you really lost the context at all. You're being obtuse to undermine any attempt at real discusion.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I said there are at least 2 points that everyone CAN agree on.

thisweb Have we arrived at the starting point yet where you actually list what you believe these points to be?

 

[Pickman's model]

It was deliberately made up. There is no such thing. WTF? I think you lost the context (as with almost every comment you make). Although I doubt you really lost the context at all. You're being obtuse to undermine any attempt at real discusion.

Yes. I asked, do you often introduce meaningless words into debate? But yet again answer came there none. You're not very good at this debate thing.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're being obtuse to undermine any attempt at real discusion.

Says the woman who hasn't read the thread

 

[butchersapron]

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