[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[butchersapron]

Prosecute

I wouldn't be demanding prosecutions of anyone involved in any of this nonsense if i was you. I don't think you realise just who you will be more likely to end up in trouble from it - aside from the idiocy of demanding legal intervention in political disputes.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Just so you know it's a fucking ridiculous suggestion that you posted that info in an attempt to cause problems for them in any way.

I checked them out this morning before heading off to the gym. I also checked out their FB page and have liked it so that I can observe them as I have never heard of Mayday4women before. If I had posted up the info/address would I have been accused of targeting them in a suspicious way?

Tbf it’s publicly available information.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Tbf it’s publicly available information.

Well quite. Which is my point. It puts the snidey comment about rich posting it up into perspective. That and knowing Rich. It's an absurd suggestion.

 

[rich!]

And i took a look on streetmap before posting it.

Still curious about the newly created domain with no content but i guess "we're doing a leaflet we need a website" isnt uncommon.

 

[Mation]

Yes, some women do hatred. Years and years of fighting for equality for ALL, just to end up with reactionary, gender-obsessed, delusionary fools demanding that trans women - who I believe have every right to identify as such without threat of discrimination or violence - should and must be able to be counted as women, as in female-born women, and have access to safe spaces as refuges, or women-only groups. These activists are taking us backwards in terms of liberation, not forwards, if you accept the gender as construct argument.

Yes, I have grown to hate this form of trans-activism because it seeks to erase my biology, my right to talk about my body (for fear of upsetting someone who doesn't have a vagina), to say 'pregnant woman' and not pregnant people, not to talk about breast-feeding because it's trans-exclusionary, fuck that shit. Really, fuck it.

And violence towards trans-women? Culprit? Toxic masculinity, men, patriarchy, rigid definitions of gender. NOT women/feminists.

What I get from your post is that you don't believe that trans women are women and that you feel very threatened by the idea that anyone should consider them so. They've cancelled Christmas and you can't say anything transphobic anymore without people calling you transphobic.

Is your biology erased by cis women born without a vagina? Are you worried that you can't talk about breast-feeding because it excludes cis women who have never been mothers or who are but haven't breastfed? I suspect not.

I have experiences as a woman that are more common to women than to other genders, and that are shared by some but not all other women (trans or cis). I'm still a woman. The fact that not all women share the same experiences doesn't threaten the fact that I'm a woman.

You don't want equality for all, imo. You want to pull up the drawbridge.

 

[Sea Star]

I'd like to see condemnation for the TERFs who use personal information to attack trans women and our supporters, many of whom are cis women.

Even as I found myself being attacked in exactly this way just a few weeks ago. Unfortunately I don't have access to mass media to whip my supporters up into a frenzy over it.

It seems condemnation only goes one way. Especially as it looks very much like a cis woman who supported trans inclusion was punched by a TERF supporting cis man without a peep about violence against women.

 

[Mation]

I wouldn't be demanding prosecutions of anyone involved in any of this nonsense if i was you. I don't think you realise just who you will be more likely to end up in trouble from it - aside from the idiocy of demanding legal intervention in political disputes.

That's a really dodgy bit of advice. Are you really meaning to suggest that someone who believes that an action constitutes hate speech should back off from suggesting that the laws on hate speech should apply, in case they piss off the wrong people?

 

[butchersapron]

That's a really dodgy bit of advice. Are you really meaning to suggest that someone who believes that an action constitutes hate speech should back off from suggesting that the laws on hate speech should apply, in case they piss off the wrong people?

I'm suggesting that introducing demands for prosecution into this is likely to backfire directly on the people that sea star wishes to support over this and previous incidents.

 

[Mation]

I'm suggesting that introducing demands for prosecution into this is likely to backfire directly on the people that sea star wishes to support over this and previous incidents.

That boils down to asking for support nicely, rather than doing what's right. The latter might turn out not to be effective but the former never is, if support is conditional on it.

 

[butchersapron]

That boils down to asking for support nicely, rather than doing what's right. The latter might turn out not to be effective but the former never is, if support is conditional on it.

It boils down to not opening your own side up to prosecution - an expanded wider prosecution at that- by making hasty ill-thought through demands for prosecution of your enemies. And in this conflict, it's sea stars side that are the ones with things wide open to prosecution all over the internet. A tit-for-tat front here will surely hurt them more.

 

[Mation]

It boils down to not opening your own side up to prosecution - an expanded wider prosecution at that- by making hasty ill-thought through demands for prosecution of your enemies. And in this conflict, it's sea stars side that are the ones with things wide open to prosecution all over the internet. A tit-for-tat front here will surely hurt them more.

I'm not at all sure that that's true, but if you're wanting to offer helpful, pragmatic and impartial advice to a 'side', you might be better to drop the usernames and state the positions you mean instead.

 

[kenny g]

Has anyone considered the states involvement in all of this? All looks extremely convenient, and has been happening for the past few years.

 

[Humirax]

I found the Bray book a disappointing rush job (it uses GCSE texts for it's history of Fascism for example) has many shocking factual errors (two examples: the french state killed hundreds of people in crushing the paris commune apparently - and that red action was a man u football firm) contains serious misreadings of contemporary fascism (i.e the french new right centered on de benoist's ideas are based on biological reductionism when they're based on cultural affirmation) - and most importantly, throughout is the implicit idea that anti-fascism's role is to pressure the state to do something about fascism - the difference is that he doesn't condemn illegal or violent action's role in apply that pressure. With all those problems it's still a better book than Against the Fascist Creep.

Having seen what Bray has to say about anti-fascism and as others have recommended his book, I'm sure (despite some inaccuracies) it is still worth a read.

 

[gamerunknown]

That's an idiotic extrapolation to make.

Not really. The bookfair policy here says nothing about transphobia, but how much shrift would have been given to someone handing out leaflets about the Immigration Act and race realism?

Just to be clear are you saying that anyone who argues that people have the right to distribute the linked leaflet is a TERF?

No, they are transphobes, but may be doing it for reasons completely perpendicular to promoting feminism, like this guy. Or maybe they believe every position should be open for debate and discussion at the anarchist bookfair - in which case, good luck having some National Syndicalist stall next to Jewdas and picking up a tome from Rothbard on your way to the Veggie stall.

They claim the act removes women's legal right to name men as men (i.e. misgender), but that was already in place in the 2010 Equality Act tbf.

 

[Humirax]

Think you'll find cw have always stood as a stunt rather than in any belief change can come through parliament

Fair enough, I take your point.

 

[Sea Star]

Do I have a side now? Sorry, i just thought i wanted equal rights as a human being, and as a woman.


I see double standards again. Generally, people seem quite happy to introduce the law into political disputes that stray into the arena of hate speech. But when trans people suggest such a thing we're told we're idiots. Great!

And I have to wonder what prosecutable things "my side" are open to. And what is "my side"?

I actually, naively thought i was protected from hate speech by the law.

Also - I am not and never have been a man. Why the hell do some people want the legal right to claim something to be true that isn't true? And why do others support that position? It's beyond me. I just want to live my life as a woman, and not as some sort of second class woman/ third gender or, worse, be forced to live as a man.

 

[LDC]

One of the flashpoints once the conflict had started was the use of cameras. More than one trans-person was filming/taking pictures of people within the Bookfair. When confronted I heard them at least once say 'This is what we do with fascists, we film them to expose them.'

A good friend of mine was really upset when walking past the row, and stopped to see what was going on, someone (a transwoman) held a camera in her face and said 'You're a TERF, I'm going to put you all over the internet.'

 

[smokedout]

They claim the act removes women's legal right to name men as men (i.e. misgender), but that was already in place in the 2010 Equality Act tbf.

Most of the things that leaflet references are already in place under the Equalities Act.

The act, or amendments to the gender recognition act, do not even exist. No bill has been published and it wasn't in the Queen's Speech. All that has happened so far is a consultation has been announced (but not yet published). The people behind that leaflet seem to be both too late and jumping the gun at the same time.

The consultation on the Gender Recognition Act, to be published in the Autumn, will look to improve the recognition process and reduce the stigma faced by the trans community. Proposals will include:

• Removing the need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria before being able to apply for gender recognition. The current need to be assessed and diagnosed by clinicians is seen as an intrusive requirement by the trans community; and
• Proposing options for reducing the length and intrusiveness of the gender recognition system.

National LGBT survey - GOV.UK

 

[crossthebreeze]

There was also this select committee report last year.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I see double standards again. Generally, people seem quite happy to introduce the law into political disputes that stray into the arena of hate speech. But when trans people suggest such a thing we're told we're idiots. Great!

Depends on who they are. Militant anti-fascists wouldn’t call for state actions against the opposition. And this happened at an anarchist event who would likely agree with that position.

 

[smokedout]

There was also this select committee report last year.

Select committe reports are not law.

 

[crossthebreeze]

Select committe reports are not law.

I know!

 

[smokedout]

Now I understand. The leaflet seems to be in response to both a private member's bill published by Maria Miller which ran out of time due to the election and no longer exists, and the select committee report. This bill called for 'gender identity' to become a protected charicteristic under law instead of '“gender reassignment” as is currently the case. If you read the committee report this seems to have been recommended for legal reasons, gender identity is probably already covered by the current legislation but would require a test case to establish that with certainty.

102.
Many witnesses proposed that, rather than relying on a test case, the Government
should instead amend the Equality Act to replace the “gender reassignment” characteristic
with a broader definition. The EHRC told us that:
a broader definition of who is protected from transgender discrimination
would provide more clarity and certainty for those with responsibilities and
rights under the Act.

The leaflet seems to be confusing this old bill with the upcoming consultation and assuming that every single recommendation proposed by the committee will be in any new bill that might one day arise. Which is not very honest of them.

 

[shygirl]

I think TERF is an accurate term...it doesn't have a judgemental component to it. Can you explain how it's hateful?
...and as for cis its a noun like any other - an accurate descriptor. good luck not "accepting" it.[/QUOTE

Here's a few contrasting definitions of TERF I just found on Urban Dictionary:


TERF
Trans-Exlusionary Radical Feminist. Originally just named radical feminism. The basis of radical feminism is that gender is a social construct forced upon people at birth and are roles specifically designed to keep women subordinate to men (masculinity vs.feminity). Men, Trans activist, and liberal feminist use the term "TERF" because the principle of radical feminism cannot coexist with gender/trans ideology

TERF is usually thrown at any woman who express a female centered opionion or whose opinion is out of line with gender ideology. And of course, diversity of opinion is bad and liberals will silence you immediately with the term TERF to justify your harrassment, beating, and raping. All in the name of progressiveness
by Ghostglitter January 20, 2017


TERFs

Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. That group of feminists that claims that trans women aren't really women, as biological determinism is only a fallacy when it used against them, not when they use it against others.

Western Feminism has killed trans women. With books and writings by TERFs like Mary Daly and Janice Raymond, feminism in the west has resulted in the denial of necessary medical care to ungodly numbers of trans women, especially transitional surgeries, hormones and aid. Denial of access to resources for trans women rapesurvivors, abuse survivors and the homeless and impoverished. Which resulted in deaths. Horrifying numbers of deaths.
#feminism#sexism#transgenderism#transsexuality#gender#identity
by zmas March 15, 2011

(Of course women are responsible for trans-women's deaths, not sickeningly violent men who can't handle/won't accept any diversion (can't think of a better word here) from rigid gender roles and stereo-types or indeed the internal struggles that it evokes in them ).

TERF
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. That group of feminists that claims that transwomen aren't really women, as biological determinism is only a fallacy when it used against them, not when they use it against others.
Isn't it mindboggling that the Royal College of Psychiatrists would invite a TERF like Julie Bindel to come talk at a study day on transgenderism and transsexuality? That's like inviting Fred Phelps to come deliver the keynote at a gay pride.
#feminism#sexism#transgenderism#transsexuality#gender#identity
by zmas March 15, 2011


TERF
A slur used by liberal feminists, men's rights activists, and trans activists to silence anyone (but especially women) who is critical of gender roles and the ensuing domination. Replaces: cunt, dyke, bitch. Is used when someone connects biology (vagina) to sex (female) and the rights of the class called women. Stands for "Trans exclusionary radical feminist", which is a misnomer and not a self-chosen label.
I'm a trans woman and I'm more of a woman than any TERF.
by RadicalWombyn June 26, 2016

I could also attach screen shots of the most hateful, abusive, violent, (even murderous) statements by some trans-women/activists, but I'm sure you've seen them before. But to be honest, it distresses and frightens me. I am fearful of being attacked by some of these activists, in a way that I feared being attacked on anti-fa or Irish demos back in the day. I never ever would have expected to be fearful of attack from supposed liberals.

It is a lie that the many women/feminists who are worried about the GRA, and what it will mean for girls and women in the future, are in any way anti-trans rights. It is a lie that we are responsible for the murders or violence against trans women. Let us not forget either that female born women are murdered at a rate of 2 per week in the UK. There were no murders of trans women in 2016. But we are accused of causing the murder of trans women when we, quite reasonably, imo, say that we're not comfortable with the idea that trans-women have access to all of our safe spaces. And we're not talking 'bathrooms' here. We are talking about changing rooms, refuges, prisons, women-only hostels/shelters, etc. Women have been attacked in refuges and homeless shelters by trans-women, albeit mainly in the US. I am NOT saying that all trans-women are violent (though we know that men are responsible for most violent crime, and a study (in Sweden I think) into levels of crimes committed by trans-women, even those relatively few who do actually transition) show no decrease in the incidences of violence).

Any anger/hatred I feel now is towards those who call for 'terfs' to be raped, punched, stamped on, and killed; to those who assert their right to fuck lesbians even though lesbians, by their very sexuality, generally don't want to have sex with a person with a dick, and call them trans-phobic when they decline; to those who tell us to 'suck their girl dicks til we choke on them'; to those who will, if the GRA is brought in, occupy positions that have been reserved for women due to life-long inequality. This all comes from a place of having to defend the rights that women have fought for throughout the ages. It did not begin as an offensive against trans women, we feel we have been pushed into this corner, for some us after years of campaigning for equality for all, including the trans community.

 

[TruXta]

Urban dictionary? Really?

 

[Pickman's model]

shygirl do you have stats on attacks on trans women?

Oh: are prisons really a safe space?

 

[smokedout]

shygirl do you have stats on attacks on trans women?

Oh: are prisons really a safe space?

Not if they've got screws: Female ex-inmates talk about prison abuse

 

[shygirl]

shygirl do you have stats on attacks on trans women?

Oh: are prisons really a safe space?

Fuck your intellectual snobbery. I used urban dic to give a sense of the common views of what 'terf' means.

No, I don't have stats, but I'm very aware of the disturbingly high level (no stats either) of violent attacks on women day in and day out in
their homes. And I refute that I or any other woman who has concerns about trans-women sharing female born women's safe spaces are responsible for violence against trans women.

If it all means that I don't accept that someone born a male or female who then goes on to transition fully or not becomes the opposite sex, then so be it. Emperor's new clothes comes to mind.

I think that trans-women activists need to campaign for safe spaces for trans-women.

I don't claim prisons to be safe spaces, and am aware that prison officers and female prisoners do violently and sexually assault females. I'm just not comfortable with trans-women being placed in female prisons. There is currently a trans-woman prisoner in a female prison, and she sadly has been segregated from the other prisoners, which must be terribly isolating. If there were units in prisons for trans-women, their safety could be better guaranteed.

 

[shygirl]

And I would support and fight for safe spaces for trans-women.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck your intellectual snobbery. I used urban dic to give a sense of the common views of what 'terf' means.

No, I don't have stats, but I'm very aware of the disturbingly high level (no stats either) of violent attacks on women day in and day out in
their homes. And I refute that I or any other woman who has concerns about trans-women sharing female born women's safe spaces. If that means that I don't accept that someone born a male or female who then goes on to transition fully becomes the opposite sex, then so be it. Emperor's new clothes comes to mind.

I think that trans-women activists need to campaign for safe spaces for trans-women.

I don't claim prisons to be safe spaces, and am aware that prison officers and female prisoners do violently and sexually assault females. I'm just not comfortable with trans-women being placed in female prisons. There is currently a trans-woman prisoner in a female prison, and she sadly has been segregated from the other prisoners, which must be terribly isolating. If there were units in prisons for trans-women, their safety could be better guaranteed.

Yeh. If you're going to hand out fuck you's please aim them at the right person. As for prisons you preceded that with a bit about access to safe spaces. You explicitly said you were talking about safe spaces *including prisons in your list*. See your post 114. And sort out the quote in it,you missed out a ]