[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[lazythursday]

I suppose, what mostly angers me about this 'debate' is that TERF ideology has given people who really should know better permission to be bigoted and prejudiced, sometimes overtly and other times through simply 'othering' transpeople in their language and failure to understand their experience. Some real life examples - recently I watched a local prominent green campaigner screw her face up in disgust after having a conversation with a transwoman - later I overheard her quoting bits and pieces of TERF-like views on gender to someone. In my local gay-ish bar, I heard a group of lesbians loudly complaining about the presence of transpeople 'in our space' - this is a bar mostly full of straight people, albeit lesbian owned and associated with lesbians. It's horrible. And then people wonder why trans-activists get angry and won't have a calm rational debate.

 

[LDC]

I’d love to know how many of the players using the book fair as a platform for their beefs are actually anarchists. Because being a trans activist or feminist doesn’t automatically make you one.

Yeah, that was one of my thoughts too. Some of the people I know going on about this have nothing to do with anarchist politics and never have, and are now using this as a stick to beat the Bookfair and anarchists in general.

 

[chilango]

I’d love to know how many of the players using the book fair as a platform for their beefs are actually anarchists. Because being a trans activist or feminist doesn’t automatically make you one.

I'd be interested as to how many of those involved in the wider twitter based/IDpol culture (a crude lumping together, but I can't be more precise right now) identify as anarachists - and why.

I'd also be interested in seeing what the @ orgs general positions are on this.

'cos I'm not seeing much common ground between this soi dissant (thanks again Laurie) anarchism, and mine.

Maybe I need to rethink my own political identity frankly.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd be interested as to how many of those involved in the wider twitter based/IDpol culture (a crude lumping together, but I can't be more precise right now) identify as anarachists - and why.

I'd also be interested in seeing what the @ orgs general positions are on this.

'cos I'm not seeing much common ground between this soi dissant (thanks again Laurie) anarchism, and mine.

Maybe I need to rethink my own political identity frankly.

disant. one s. doesn't rhyme with pissant.

 

[LDC]

I suppose, what mostly angers me about this 'debate' is that TERF ideology has given people who really should know better permission to be bigoted and prejudiced, sometimes overtly and other times through simply 'othering' transpeople in their language and failure to understand their experience. Some real life examples - recently I watched a local prominent green campaigner screw her face up in disgust after having a conversation with a transwoman - later I overheard her quoting bits and pieces of TERF-like views on gender to someone. In my local gay-ish bar, I heard a group of lesbians loudly complaining about the presence of transpeople 'in our space' - this is a bar mostly full of straight people, albeit lesbian owned and associated with lesbians. It's horrible. And then people wonder why trans-activists get angry and won't have a calm rational debate.

Yeah totally, and I think everyone needs to be really careful and self reflective about why they hold the positions they do in this, as of course some of even the less extreme views might (will?) have a element of prejudice in them, and I think that's especially true on the anti-trans side (for want of a better term).

 

[chilango]

disant. one s. doesn't rhyme with pissant.

Blame Laurie.

 

[Pickman's model]

Blame Laurie.

i do blame her, for leading you astray among other things.

 

[19force8]

disant. one s. doesn't rhyme with pissant.

Or as they'd say in Quebec:

Il est pissant, ce gars-là!

 

[Pickman's model]

Or as they'd say in Quebec:

Il est pissant, ce gars-là!

oui, bien sûr

 

[Athos]

I suppose, what mostly angers me about this 'debate' is that TERF ideology has given people who really should know better permission to be bigoted and prejudiced, sometimes overtly and other times through simply 'othering' transpeople in their language and failure to understand their experience. Some real life examples - recently I watched a local prominent green campaigner screw her face up in disgust after having a conversation with a transwoman - later I overheard her quoting bits and pieces of TERF-like views on gender to someone. In my local gay-ish bar, I heard a group of lesbians loudly complaining about the presence of transpeople 'in our space' - this is a bar mostly full of straight people, albeit lesbian owned and associated with lesbians. It's horrible. And then people wonder why trans-activists get angry and won't have a calm rational debate.

But, again, that's conflating two very different things: abuse and legitimate debate. With a bit of good will and some self-reflection, that could be worked around.

What's more difficult, is the point at which they meet/overlap. Whether e.g. it's transphobic to query whether a trans woman is a woman, and, if it is, could that, nevertheless, be justified by the importance of doing so to tackle misogyny?

 

[krink]

I'd also be interested in seeing what the @ orgs general positions are on this.

I've only seen three that I'd heard of, freedom books, afed and class war. all supporting trans anti-terf people and against bookfair bods.

 

[krink]

Maybe I need to rethink my own political identity frankly.

i thinks butchers or someone said (possibly joking) it's going to be like the mid 80s split and i think it might just be!

 

[rich!]

Please note: I removed the address that was referred to earlier as I received this email:



I pointed out that the info was in the public domain but my first response with these sort of emails is to always remove the address first...

Just checking - was this my post citing the registered holder of the web domain?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Statement from Helen Steel.

 

[chilango]

i thinks butchers or someone said (possibly joking) it's going to be like the mid 80s split and i think it might just be!

What mid-80s split was butchersapron referring to?

 

[Pickman's model]

What mid-80s split was butchersapron referring to?

THE mid-80s split

 

[LDC]

Fucking great statement.

 

[bimble]

"refusing to validate other people's belief systems is not the same as threatening to harm them" is spot on.
A lot of people would argue (very angrily) against the idea that its a belief system that's being discussed here though.

 

[krink]

What mid-80s split was butchersapron referring to?

might be another of my frequent senior moments, hang on...

 

[LDC]

I'm assuming he means the post-miner's strike 'lifestyle/class' split?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

What mid-80s split was butchersapron referring to?

The Clash?

 

[krink]

page nine, around posts 250-ish. i took it as meaning it's like the time mid 80s, things like the DAM and their involvement with the miners strike was a big topic as opposed to the hippy bollocks that was very popular. i might be talking shite, carry on

 

[TopCat]

I'm assuming he means the post-miner's strike 'lifestyle/class' split?

This period was my heyday, hayday hade(?)
Whatever.
Anyway was there a movement split? There was us (Class War) and Red Action and there was a bunch of ineffectual wankers. We did stuff. The rest postured a lot. Now CW postures along with the rest and RA are no more.

 

[Rob Ray]

"refusing to validate other people's belief systems is not the same as threatening to harm them" is spot on. A lot of people would argue (very angrily) against the idea that its a belief system that's being discussed here though.

Well, that and the way she seems to portray it as entirely the fault of a "baying mob" (nice language, speaking of dehumanising word use) of trans people and pretty much absolves the leafletters of any responsibility for deliberately going to an event where they knew there'd be a large and militant trans presence to hand out texts which were, charitably, highly inflammatory.

Like if you want to call for dialogue fair play, but maybe don't do that and in the same breath insult people and deny that them being pissed off has any validity.

 

[bimble]

Rob Ray she's obviously chosen a 'side' in this mess and is being quite open about that. Your post seems to suggest she should be neutral somehow which seems a bit odd given that she's made her views fairly clear.

 

[killer b]

She spent a couple of hours backed up against a wall with people screaming abuse at her last weekend, and a week of fallout since. It's admirable she's managed to keep such a lid on it tbh.

 

[sunnysidedown]

She spent a couple of hours backed up against a wall with people screaming abuse at her last weekend, and a week of fallout since. It's admirable she's managed to keep such a lid on it tbh.

I've no idea how those currently inhabiting the banner burning/no platform edge of the trans community see their position developing once/if it moves from what I suppose is a politically small, London based milieu, and into the wider social sphere? but they may find they need to change the term TERFs to TEFs (that's F for female, and not necessarily a politically feminist one at that).

 

[Rob Ray]

I'm not sure how you got that particular "seems" bimble, because nowhere did I suggest that she was or needed to be neutral.

 

[bimble]

I've no idea how those currently inhabiting the banner burning/no platform edge of the trans community see their position developing once/if it moves from what I suppose is a politically small, London based milieu, and into the wider social sphere? but they may find they need to change the term TERFs to TEFs (that's F for female, and not necessarily a politically feminist one at that).

Or maybe the term 'gender critical' will gain traction soon, instead of the whole thing being about exclusion from some club named Women.

The Trans Women Who Say That Trans Women Aren’t Women

 

[crossthebreeze]

Or maybe the term 'gender critical' will gain traction soon, instead of the whole thing being about exclusion from some club named Women.

The Trans Women Who Say That Trans Women Aren’t Women


View attachment 119461

I have not finished the article, so have nothing sensible to add, but one of the trans women interviewed is called Helen Highwater which is an ace name.