Russell Brand: rape and sexual abuse allegations, grifting and general dodginess - discussion

[Orang Utan]

Can you be a bit more vague?

Not really.

 

[Orang Utan]

Why the fuck am I getting shit for this, on a thread about Russell Brand? When the ‘joke, if you can even call it that was on Brand, not Christianity or Jesus. And Brand’s motives were what were originally being questioned here, not Christianity itself.

 

[cesare]

all this just for one quip! I can’t pretend that I understand what the fuss is about tbh

I can understand you living your life without understanding or insight into the Troubles and why your quip might have hit a nerve re the anti-Catholic bigotry that many people with Irish heritage might be very much alive to. What I don't understand is your doubling down when it's pointed out.

 

[Orang Utan]

I can understand you living your life without understanding or insight into the Troubles and why your quip might have hit a nerve re the anti-Catholic bigotry that many people with Irish heritage might be very much alive to. What I don't understand is your doubling down when it's pointed out.

What is any of that to do with what i said?

 

[cesare]

What is any of that to do with what i said?

It doesn't really matter if you don't understand. But if you upset someone or more than one someone, all you need to do is apologise if you didn't mean it. If you did or don't care, just carry on innit.

 

[discokermit]

What is any of that to do with what i said?

i hear you're a racist now?

 

[planetgeli]

Brand's a cunt.

HTH.

 

[cesare]

Brand's a cunt.

HTH.

He truly fucking is.

 

[Wilf]

Why the fuck am I getting shit for this, on a thread about Russell Brand? When the ‘joke, if you can even call it that was on Brand, not Christianity or Jesus. And Brand’s motives were what were originally being questioned here, not Christianity itself.

Well, I take as a starting point that you can attack religious hierarchies, the scandals, the misogyny of religions. Fill your boots. But individual beliefs are different. These may be deeply held, they involve identity and a sense of community. Some of that might itself be problematic, but it's about a mix of who people are and who they choose to be.

I also take it as obvious that your 'joke' would be pretty offensive to Christians. You can make those 'jokes' if you want and I've probably said things in the past that would be offensive to Christians and others. But really, being a 'grown up', means having a bit of respect, not being deliberately offensive. That's about it really. Except to add - Serge Forward 's point - that being deliberately offensive isn't a great way to build solidarity.

 

[JimW]

Concept of original sin? Perfectly fine?

This is the biggie really; pointing out the silly shit in the Bible won't get you much mileage against a Jesuit theologian as they've dealt with those objections for years, but core tenets such as OS are just plain wrong, even if I do recall some decent attempts at justification.

 

[JimW]

Are figs the one that have a dead wasp in them by design? Bit off-putting.

 

[discokermit]

Well, I take as a starting point that you can attack religious hierarchies, the scandals, the misogyny of religions. Fill your boots. But individual beliefs are different. These may be deeply held, they involve identity and a sense of community. Some of that might itself be problematic, but it's about a mix of who people are and who they choose to be.

I also take it as obvious that your 'joke' would be pretty offensive to Christians. You can make those 'jokes' if you want and I've probably said things in the past that would be offensive to Christians and others. But really, being a 'grown up', means having a bit of respect, not being deliberately offensive. That's about it really. Except to add - Serge Forward 's point - that being deliberately offensive isn't a great way to build solidarity.

neither will droning on like a minister

 

[Wilf]

neither will droning on like a minister

I know...

 

[Aladdin]

All of them I know are just in for the schools. It's nuts anyone could genuinely believe, but there is a stranglehold to break. Who knows what happens when it stops,,,

I'm in Ireland and the schools are mostly state run schools. The boards which once were headed up by religious are increasingly secular...mostly secular unless its a very small country school. Purely because there are fewer and fewer priests. And the fact that schools have become more secular in general and non denominational.
Unless its a very fancy private fee paying school in D4.

is it a bad thing to have issues with Christianity anyway? What’s wrong with disagreeing with ideas you find problematic?

i hate all religious institutions. And it’s not even just religious institutions that protect and shelter abusers. I’m sure all large organisations and institutions do.

Thing is...Christianity is an easy one to kick around. No repercussions for you if you share your thoughts on a message board or even out loud somewhere in public.
No real Christian is going to harm you for your tirade...unless you're in a pub on the Falls...
Try dissing Islam in the middle east...

all this just for one quip! I can’t pretend that I understand what the fuss is about tbh

Really? That's probably your problem then.

I'm here roughly 10 years. I've never felt the need to discuss my faith on here...that I recall.

So .. some might call Christianty it "fairy tales". But it's a message that I appreciate. A way to live. A way to see the good in others. A belief that everyone deserves to be loved just because we exist.

I'm probably not well right now.
And I am trying to cope with a lot. So I am taking a break from urban for a while.

Until then.... peace all.

 

[discokermit]

this reminds me of when the swp tried to ban its members from watching father ted, due to its anti irish bigotry.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's a Calvinist distortion of what Christianity teaches. The Orthodox faith teaches that heaven and hell are about the inner state of the individual. According to this older tradition, we all end up in the company of God, but those who love God will experience that company as heaven, and those that hate God will experience it as hell.

There is of course a rather aulder tradition but we rarely mention the gnostics here these days

 

[BigMoaner]

Meister Echeirt has entered the chat.

Prob one of the most influential thinkers of all time and a Catholic. There’s a lot there and Dawkins-like new atheist “ throw it all away” gets more and more shallow seeming as the years go on. There’s more in the Upanishads to inspire than I’ve found in most places. A book that has inspired the most Logical philosophers for centuries. Infact most western philosophers worth their weight are tied up with the metaphysics that religion has talked about for centuries. So reductive and dismissive to throw out “all religions are a waste of time”, especially when the main meaning of life for so many now seems to be material comfort as salvation. There’s a lot that’s truly radical in religious thought and a lot that is inspiring today’s radicals. The mystical tradition for example which has little of the supernatural but all of the mind blowing practices and insights is one such line of thought that has come from religion, not to mention ethics, etc. pantheism makes more sense to me than atheism and you don’t even have to ascribe a god, you could call god in pantheism absoloute nothingness which the Buddhists do. Absolute nothingness therefor everything then is the Absolute - that to me makes far more sense than using the limited human mind and senses to understand “reality”. Infact I would hasten to add that the more ordinary religious metaphysics is explored the more the reductive scientific materialism that we all live under seems lacking. The scientist who looks down a microscope is always looking within a context, and what he is seeing is filtered through the human brain. The people who go around just barking “religions a load of shit, and fairy tales, it’s all about the facts and reason” are really dwarfed by a whole history of very logical thought thought that they do not understand in the slightest.

 

[Orang Utan]

Well, I take as a starting point that you can attack religious hierarchies, the scandals, the misogyny of religions. Fill your boots. But individual beliefs are different. These may be deeply held, they involve identity and a sense of community. Some of that might itself be problematic, but it's about a mix of who people are and who they choose to be.

I also take it as obvious that your 'joke' would be pretty offensive to Christians. You can make those 'jokes' if you want and I've probably said things in the past that would be offensive to Christians and others. But really, being a 'grown up', means having a bit of respect, not being deliberately offensive. That's about it really. Except to add - Serge Forward 's point - that being deliberately offensive isn't a great way to build solidarity.

Is this still about my comment on Russell Brand’s personal hygiene? I wasn’t being deliberately offensive. It was just a quip that I did not imagine would offend anyone. No one commented at the time, so I’m puzzled as to why it’s now an issue. I apologise for offending anyone with that comment. It wasn’t my intention.
However, I will not apologise for criticising the Catholic Church’s sheltering of serial abusers.

 

[metalguru]

Religion or belief is one of the 9 protected characteristics enshrined in Equality legislation -along with age, disability, gender reassignment, race, sex, sex orientation etc - giving a steer that it's an area to treat with respect and dignity.

tbh OU I think that rather than continuing to flail around, it might be better to have a period of reflection and break from posting on this issue.

 

[Orang Utan]

Meister Echeirt has entered the chat.

Prob one of the most influential thinkers of all time and a Catholic. There’s a lot there and Dawkins-like new atheist “ throw it all away” gets more and more shallow seeming as the years go on. There’s more in the Upanishads to inspire than I’ve found in most places. A book that has inspired the most Logical philosophers for centuries. Infact most western philosophers worth their weight are tied up with the metaphysics that religion has talked about for centuries. So reductive and dismissive to throw out “all religions are a waste of time”, especially when the main meaning of life for so many now seems to be material comfort as salvation. There’s a lot that’s truly radical in religious thought and a lot that is inspiring today’s radicals. The mystical tradition for example which has little of the supernatural but all of the mind blowing practices and insights is one such line of thought that has come from religion, not to mention ethics, etc. pantheism makes more sense to me than atheism and you don’t even have to ascribe a god, you could call god in pantheism absoloute nothingness which the Buddhists do. Absolute nothingness therefor everything then is the Absolute - that to me makes far more sense than using the limited human mind and senses to understand “reality”. Infact I would hasten to add that the more ordinary religious metaphysics is explored the more the reductive scientific materialism that we all live under seems lacking. The scientist who looks down a microscope is always looking within a context, and what he is seeing is filtered through the human brain. The people who go around just barking “religions a load of shit, and fairy tales, it’s all about the facts and reason” are really dwarfed by a whole history of very logical thought thought that they do not understand in the slightest.

Agree with this bit especially.

 

[Raheem]

So it's OK if she lives round the corner?

I think "neighbour" as used in the Bible means anyone in the local community. So no, sorry. But if she lives in Helsinki you've found a loophole.

 

[Wilf]

I think "neighbour" as used in the Bible means anyone in the local community. So no, sorry. But if she lives in Helsinki you've found a loophole.

Sorry, global village, space-time compression... the space for a bit of extra-marital non-neighbourly how's your father is rapidly shrinking.

 

[burtabraham]

There is of course a rather aulder tradition but we rarely mention the gnostics here these days

There is some good stuff in the gnostic tradition, although I believe they came a little later - 2nd Century onward.

 

[Orang Utan]

Well, I take as a starting point that you can attack religious hierarchies, the scandals, the misogyny of religions. Fill your boots. But individual beliefs are different. These may be deeply held, they involve identity and a sense of community. Some of that might itself be problematic, but it's about a mix of who people are and who they choose to be.

not sure where i had a go at any individual here apart from Russell Brand

 

[Wilf]

not sure where i had a go at any individual here apart from Russell Brand

I don't think anyone has accused you having a go at an individual.

 

[CNT36]

My mum's a committed Christian, regularly attends church and pretty po faced about it all but doubt she'd get upset by this.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't think anyone has accused you having a go at an individual.

Why was it brought up then?
It’s got weirdly personal.

 

[story]

not sure where i had a go at any individual here apart from Russell Brand

Presumably though you can recognise, if not understand, that people feel very personally aligned with their chosen community. Might be a football team, or a music tribe, or a neighbourhood, or any other conglomeration of people with whom you feel some kind of kinship. So if someone were to insult your favourite genre of music as “bag o’ shite. Everyone who makes it is an idiot” then you might, maybe, feel some sense of loyalty or injury arising from that? Or your city is just a boring soulless pointless place, why the fuck would anyone want to live there?

So of you can - presumably - recognise that people might feel personally affronted to some degree by such an insult, can you extend that understanding to a person’s personal beliefs and feelings about their religion? Their spiritually practice, the place where they feel understood, take solace, and invest time and energy and emotions?

 

[BigMoaner]

Anyway whilst we are on the subject. Prob my fav quotes. Deeper than a deep dish pizza in Deepsville served by Dr Deep

 

[tim]

General consensus.

General Consensus was such a cunt that Queen Victoria led the mob that pulled his statue down and threw into Mr Bazalgette's sewer