Russell Brand: rape and sexual abuse allegations, grifting and general dodginess - discussion

[PTK]

Adult baptism is, isn’t it?

As a regular practice, but other denominations also do it when people convert.

 

[Orang Utan]

In the same way that you cannot tell someone that you forgive a monetary debt, and then take the person to the small claims court.

eh? Justice is a secular thing. Forgiveness as a religious concept is a separate thing.

 

[two sheds]

Similarly though you could take the person to the small claims court and then forgive the debt.

 

[PTK]

eh? Justice is a secular thing. Forgiveness as a religious concept is a separate thing.

Never mind.

 

[Orang Utan]

Forgiving someone for committing a crime does not mean that you're fine with them not being prosecuted for it

 

[Orang Utan]

Never mind.

why? it's an important distinction

 

[PTK]

why? it's an important distinction

Forget it.

 

[two sheds]

admittedly if you forgave someone a debt and then took it to the small claims court they'd have a good case against you. Possibly with the Arkell vs Pressdram defence. Not sure how that converts to religious argument though.

 

[Orang Utan]

Forget it.

can’t now you’ve brought it up. Don’t venture a point if you cannot back it up. It it’s a mistake, own it. If you believe other people’s reasoning is faulty, then explain why.

 

[Orang Utan]

admittedly if you forgave someone a debt and then took it to the small claims court they'd have a good case against you. Possibly with the Arkell vs Pressdram defence. Not sure how that converts to religious argument though.

You’re using different definitions of the word ‘forgive’ here. Forgiving a debt is a different thing to forgiving a sin. As is forgiving a crime.

 

[DotCommunist]

You cannot claim to forgive someone and report them to the police.

this comes under 'render unto ceaser' as well as the more complex moral question. Nonce? he's getting rendered unto ceaser forgiveness or no.

 

[two sheds]

You’re using different definitions of the word ‘forgive’ here. Forgiving a debt is a different thing to forgiving a sin. As is forgiving a crime.

pah it counts "to wipe out, become as if it didn't exist"

 

[Orang Utan]

Cos all Catholics are drunken abusers eh?

I don't understand this...and I actually for the first time in my time on urban ..I actually feel quite threatened by you Orang Utan . I would be afraid to meet you. I feel that you would not treat me with respect...or tolerance.

BTW this is massively out of order and needs challenging. but I guess I cannot do anything about other people's perceptions, no matter how unreasonable (to me) or irrational they are.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Why would meeting him help you believe the numerous women that have come forward to say he assaulted them? Do you think you can just tell based on how much you like him in person?

 

[nogojones]

It seems to me that there is a contradiction between the Christian concept of forgiveness and the legal system. You cannot claim to forgive someone and report them to the police.

The RC church have that contradiction covered by not grassing up nonce priests and helping them skip the country, just like my old parish priest when he was caught raping the under 14's football team.

I have no problem with Catholics, all my family are, but the church as an institution has a few issues to say the least.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Why would meeting him help you believe the numerous women that have come forward to say he assaulted them? Do you think you can just tell based on how much you like him in person?

You have to be reasonably close to be able to feel the bumps on their head

 

[Raheem]

According to the Bible you need to confess your sins on order to be forgiven by God. I'm not sure it says what you have to do to be forgiven by a human, but it would surely be a bit unreasonable to expect humans to forgive sins that God won't.

 

[andysays]

According to the Bible you need to confess your sins on order to be forgiven by God. I'm not sure it says what you have to do to be forgiven by a human, but it would surely be a bit unreasonable to expect humans to forgive sins that God won't.

Don't know about other faiths, but according to Catholicism only God can forgive sins.

Is there any independent evidence that Brand is becoming or seeking to become a Catholic specifically?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Don't know about other faiths, but according to Catholicism only God can forgive sins.

Is there any independent evidence that Brand is becoming or seeking to become a Catholic specifically?

Don't think so. He's on Facebook today talking about being baptised yesterday and that he has been transformed and is now "in Christ". (sounds quite happy clappy evangelist). He mentioned that his wife is a catholic, but didn't say anything about becoming a catholic himself.

 

[tim]

hmm not sure he a catholic more a more again evangelistic twat

Father Cosplay, who is the person requesting prayers for Brand was ordained by batshit Nordic Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. Originally, he trained for ordination with the Church of England, but they decided he was too alt-Right, he then shifted to an outfit called the Free Church of England, they made him a Deacon but decided that he wasn't right or maybe too far-Right to be one of their Priests.

Basically, smells, bells and Fascism, so not a conventional Evangelical.

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[Wilf]

You can judge a soul?

You think you are funny?

Cos all Catholics are drunken abusers eh?

I don't understand this...and I actually for the first time in my time on urban ..I actually feel quite threatened by you Orang Utan . I would be afraid to meet you. I feel that you would not treat me with respect...or tolerance.


I fully understand that RB allegedly raped women and he has always seemed a creepy piece of work to me. So I get the dislike of his personality and cringey shit and I can understand the condemnation of his abuse od women and girls and alleged rapes. This is 100% something he needs to account for and be judged for in court. If proven guilty then I would hope he does time. But my view is not motivated by hatred of his turn to Christianity. His conversion to Christianity / Catholicism is not something I will judge. If he has done it for the right reasons and believes the true message of Christ who am I or anyone to judge his motives? He will have had to do a lot of work to get to the stage where he has been baptised into Catholicism. And whoever has worked with him will have had to assess his commitment in some way. But all that is between him and God . He may well be trying his best to be a better human being.

But this is, in my view, a very separate thing to his upcoming court cases. He still needs to atone to the law and pay whatever price the courts decide. That is right.. that is what society demands and it is right that there is justice for victims. I would think he will spend time in jail if convicted. I also believe as a Christian that he should atone for what he has done and apologise and pay retribution for it.

On a separate note...as a Catholic, I do find some of the anti Catholic posts above very unsettling. They'repossibly written in jest.. but I cannot rule out that Orang Utan may actually detest someone like me. It does affect me. Some people I thought were ok..fair people...who suddenly turn on the "all catholics are drunken abusers" type of thing. It's pretty clear to me that Christians are detested already by many groups. And the thing is that most of the worst people who have surfaced in Christianity and specifically the Catholic Church have been the least Christian of all but all of us are tarred.

I don't want to cause an argument. I considered sending a pm but I didn't want a debate about how I am feeling because it would become about me and my "feelings"... I am just stating it here and now that the attitude in the quotes above is in my view anti - Christian. I am fully aware that many here already find Christianity a joke..and poke fun at Catholicism...and that I will get grief for posting this. But I cannot just let it be...It would not sit well with my conscience to laugh at or support what OU has posted above.


That's all I want to say on this.

Not sure I agree with you about Brand's likely motives in terms of his apparent conversion. But whilst I believe we should be free to criticise organised religions and power structures, I also agree that we should do that whilst having a degree of respect for people's personal beliefs.

 

[andysays]

Don't think so. He's on Facebook today talking about being baptised yesterday and that he has been transformed and is now "in Christ". (sounds quite happy clappy evangelist). He mentioned that his wife is a catholic, but didn't say anything about becoming a catholic himself.

OK. If anyone becomes a Catholic as an adult, the normal way of doing it would be to go through a period of preparation and then complete the various sacraments (baptism, confirmation, first holy communion) at the Easter Vigil on Easter Saturday.

It doesn't sound like he's been baptised a Catholic.

 

[Callie]

can’t now you’ve brought it up. Don’t venture a point if you cannot back it up. It it’s a mistake, own it. If you believe other people’s reasoning is faulty, then explain why.

Forgive it

 

[Orang Utan]

On a separate note...as a Catholic, I do find some of the anti Catholic posts above very unsettling. They'repossibly written in jest.. but I cannot rule out that Orang Utan may actually detest someone like me. It does affect me. Some people I thought were ok..fair people...who suddenly turn on the "all catholics are drunken abusers" type of thing. It's pretty clear to me that Christians are detested already by many groups. And the thing is that most of the worst people who have surfaced in Christianity and specifically the Catholic Church have been the least Christian of all but all of us are tarred.

Sorry, still stewing about this.
You have incorrectly/dishonestly quoted me as saying “all catholics are drunken abusers” when this is demonstrably untrue.
I find it disturbing that someone would come to such a conclusion. It may be just down to a misreading, but I would appreciate a clarification and/or an apology, whichever applies here.

 

[BigMoaner]

This is fascinating and timely and brand relevant. We have been talking about these things on here for a long time but these guys add a lot more thought to it. Interesting

 

[Aladdin]

who would have thought that a serial abuser drunk on power would find a home in the Catholic Church?

The implication is clear. That the Catholic church would be the place for a serial abuser drunk on ...power...or.whatever..doesnt matter. You made it crystal clear that the Catholic Church in your view is the place for abusers.

Then you went on mucj later to clarify that it was the Hierarchy was the problem but you'd already labelled the Catholic Church as abusers.
You literally trashed Catholics ..the Catholic Church IS the people...it's members..all of the people...

I agree with the points about certain hierarchical individuals who really did a lot of damage by moving abusive priests around from place to place. That was unforgiveable. And since about 2016 or so there has been a massive weeding out of pedophile priests and religious...over here at any rate.

Maybe you didnt mean to be offensive to someone like me? Maybe I should laugh at the joke about Jesus' dick getting washed occasionally...maybe I am supposed to just sit here as you classify the Catholic Church as abusers and laugh at my beliefs but I see what you came out with as sectarian. I am sure you thought it was amusing and that it would get a few laughs..but I didnt find it funny.

Plenty people where I live suffered horrendously just because they were Catholic. Plenty suffered the same in NI for a very long time. Plenty still suffer because of it. So yes..I bristle at the sort of sectarian shite you came out with today. And no I have nothing to apologise for for calling you out on your nasty hatred of Christianity and specifically Catholics.

Put my account on ignore if you like... that's what I will be doing with your account. If anyone deserves to give an apology its you...

 

[Orang Utan]

re: the joke - Brand was the target of that joke, not Jesus.
I can’t believe I’m having to explain this to a grown-up.

 

[Orang Utan]

i hate all religious institutions. And it’s not even just religious institutions that protect and shelter abusers. I’m sure all large organisations and institutions do.

 

[Wilf]

re: the joke - Brand was the target of that joke, not Jesus.
I can’t believe I’m having to explain this to a grown-up.

You made the joke thinking Catholics/Christians would be okay with it?

 

[bcuster]

hate: there's too much of it...