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Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

'twisting things to support my argument' - what, you don't like the fact that i've stuck to my point throughout the whole thread? desperation belboid, that's what's characterizing your last spate of posts. deflections about arguments i made on these boards when i was 17, gross mis-readings and oversimplifications, crude attempts to bait me into waxing off lyrical by myself in the hope i'd give you some rope to hang me with... and now you're attacking me for having a consistent argument.
no, I'm having a go at you for being all over the shop, thats why I said 'you're a right mess of contradictory tosh' - ie the very opposite of being consistent. Learn to fucking read.

i agree with you again - but it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier)... the fact that Pakistanis contribute to 2/3s of the cases of known domestic abuse of Asian women also, from your own study, would further suggest to me entrenched cultural values which spill out in the fringes into varied forms of misogynistic and abusive behaviour.
lol, what an idiotic comment. Of course Pakistanis contribute about 2/3 of DA against Asian women. Because about 2/3 of Asian women are married to Pakistani men! That's absolutely nothing to do with Pakistani culture, any more than the fact that most white british DA victims are attacked by white British men.
 
no, Pakistanis make up 1.9% of the UK population - the 'Asian' population makes up 5% of the total population. Pakistanis are therefore over-represented by almost 1/3

edit: in fact, it's worse. the Asian population makes up almost 7% of the UK population (2011) and the Pakistani population amounts to 1.82%.
 
no, Pakistanis make up 1.9% of the UK population - the 'Asian' population makes up 5% of the total population. Pakistanis are therefore over-represented by almost 1/3
Ok, that is a change in the argument, though. Pakistani culture may breed a disturbing number of men who abuse women. But the conjecture that some Pakistani men pick on non-Muslims because they see them as 'whores' due to their culture - is that supported by the numbers? I don't think it is.

As for Islam somehow being part of the problem, what are the figures among British Bangladeshis?
 
Ok, that is a change in the argument, though. Pakistani culture may breed a disturbing number of men who abuse women. But the conjecture that some Pakistani men pick on non-Muslims because they see them as 'whores' due to their culture - is that supported by the numbers? I don't think it is.

As for Islam somehow being part of the problem, what are the figures among British Bangladeshis?

i think they're congruent arguments, not the same by any means but one may well support the other. there appears to be something culturally related in the case of the specific grooming gangs we are discussing, as the victims appear to be almost universally non-muslim. that other forms of abuse also occur within the community elsewhere i think is testament to the malleability of patriarchal values into different strands.

personally, i wouldn't argue that Islam in general is the problem, as there are many Islamic communities who - whilst displaying more conservative values than the norm - can't in any way be statistically linked with spikes in these kinds of activities. the majority of Arab communities, for example - or Persian. for the record, Bangladeshis make up 0.71% of the UK population.
 
there appears to be something culturally related in the case of the specific grooming gangs we are discussing, as the victims appear to be almost universally non-muslim.
I don't think so. Not unless there is evidence that the men refrained from abusing Muslim girls who were in care and fell into their hands. The almost all non-Muslim nature of the victims is a reflection of the ethnic make-up of girls in care in the area, no?
 
i think that's definitely a factor, but from the report only 1/3 of the girls involved in Rotherham came from care (iirc) which still leaves a good 2/3s from elsewhere. it suggests to me there is a case of cultural profiling.
 
no, Pakistanis make up 1.9% of the UK population - the 'Asian' population makes up 5% of the total population. Pakistanis are therefore over-represented by almost 1/3

edit: in fact, it's worse. the Asian population makes up almost 7% of the UK population (2011) and the Pakistani population amounts to 1.82%.
you havent actually read the report, or paid it any close attention, have you? It isnt talking about Asian girls and young women in general (despite its title) its looking specifically at 'Asian-Muslim' young women. It states specifically that it is talking about girls and young women from:

An Asian ethnic background (e.g. Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Afghani), who may or may not be of the Muslim faith; and / or A Muslim background who could be from any ethnic group.

So it's hardly surprising it is largely men of Pakistani heritage who are the abusers.
 
i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.

One thing I don't believe these cunts can be accused of is acting systematically. One of the factors that militated against them being caught, even if the police and social services had been less supine, is that they weren't systematic in targeting victims - they didn't stick to a single "racial" or "social" type, and as Jay makes clear, some of their targets told them to fuck off, and walked away unharmed.
I think you're reading, for whatever reason, a logic into this abuse that doesn't actually exist, or if it does, is a factor far subordinbate to the undoubted primary factor - that these offenders were opportunists who were in situations where they could exercise opportunism: The night-time economy. While some may have located themselves in that economy purely to further a penchant for child abuse, I'd strongly suspect that, as with a significant minority of other child sex abusers, they abused because the opportunity for sex was there, and wouldn't have actively sought it out. In any "gang" situation, there are always leaders and followers, with all the social dynamics that follow from that.
 
Ok, but what is it about the girls that made them targets? Their race, their religion, or their vulnerability? I suggest that it is this last, their vulnerability, that is overwhelmingly the factor in their being chosen.
In most long-term abuse situations, child or no, vulnerability (either taken advantage of, or manufactured) is usually a primary factor, whether the vulnerability is social or physical. In terms of race and religion, with these "grooming gangs", those appear to be secondary concerns "bolted on" to the practice of abuse by the abusers after the event, along the lines of "it's alright to do this to these white bitches because they're worse than animals". Classic dehumanisation, as adopted by many individuals and many cultures to excuse their oppression of other individuals and other cultures. If, of course, the cultural justification was primary, then there would be a vanishingly-small or non-existent incidence of these men preying on females in their own communities. This isn't the case.
 
so, basically, your view can be summarised as 'these paki's need to sort their shit out'

and your views can be summarised as 'i agree with forced marriage'

You're both reducing some very important issues to a series of straw men.

Belboid is conflating an objection to certain (highly objectionable) cultural practices found in certain sections of the British Pakistani community with a racist dislike for that community as a whole. On the contrary if somebody didn't give a shit about Pakistani people then surely they wouldn't care about young Pakistani women being forced to marry creepy old men they've never met, or if they were subject to endemic domestic violence?

The truly racist attitude in this situation would be to ignore these problems on the grounds that those women who are being abused aren't worth bothering with and to assume that the situation can't be helped anyway because it's somehow inherent to the nature of both perpetrator and victim. It's not, it's a result of certain self-perpetuating cultural values and practices for which attitudes towards immigrant communities in the UK from the wider population must be seen as partly responsible. These attitudes and abuses can be changed, just like attitudes towards women in western societies has been dragged kicking and screaming in the direction of decency and fairness in recent decades.

As for Das Uberdog, he appears to be making the equally dodgy leap from, "some people within this community do x" to, "people in this community do x" which is clearly not the case. For a start it assumes that there even is a homogenous 'British Pakistani community' in the sense of a bunch of people who all go down the bingo together to gossip and plot. This does a great disservice to Pakistani people who wouldn't think of forcing their daughters to marry anyone, much less of cruising around at night looking for vulnerable teenage girls. If attitudes to women are to be improved then this cannot simply be imposed from the outside by hand-wringing white people, it will require British Pakistanis who oppose cruel practices to take a stand against them. And I'm sure many people are already doing exactly that.

It's a lot easier to punish bad behaviour than to encourage good behaviour. It takes a lot more work, a lot more time and a lot more understanding. Which is not to say the perpetrators of this crime shouldn't be punished. We should not mistake an understanding of the root causes of this abuse for excuses, there can be no excuse. But the perpetrators are individuals with names and addresses, it is not an entire community or ethnic group that has done these things. If we try to blame Pakistanis in general then we deny those Pakistani people who must surely be sickened and outraged by what has been done the agency to help make sure it doesn't keep happening.

It's clear from this thread that people have vastly different experiences of British Pakistani culture. This is only to be expected, we're talking about millions of people across the country and the Pakistani people you know, work with or live alongside will only be a tiny fraction of that huge and diverse group of people. So when it comes to understanding British Pakistani culture, the problems within it and the ways in which progress can be made the best people for the job are Pakistanis themselves. The first and most important thing we can do to help is not to tar them all with the same brush.
 
i agree with you again - but it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier)... the fact that Pakistanis contribute to 2/3s of the cases of known domestic abuse of Asian women also, from your own study, would further suggest to me entrenched cultural values which spill out in the fringes into varied forms of misogynistic and abusive behaviour.

Patriarchy is embedded in every culture. What pertains in Rotherham and other centres of abuse by members of the British Pakistani community is an exploitation of particular circumstances including patriarchal custom. What it isn't, is an acting out of extant cultural custom.

I also believe that conflating child sexual abuse and domestic abuse is fatuous - most justification for DV comes from custom, and means that those who practice it can be educated out of it. Child sex abuse is a choice, not a cultural custom, and therefore isn't amenable to education.
 
This is a little different, though. It might help explain how they got away with it for so long, but does it say anything about why they did it? I'm not sure it does.

As I've said previously on other threads, while there are a minority of paedophiles who have a compulsion to commit such offences, they are a minority, and are usually childhood victims of neglect and abuse themselves, so are to an extent driven by impulses beyond their own ability to understand. With a majority the crime is opportunist (although also assisted/facilitated by gendered and culturally-based assumptions), and with regard to child abuse, often once the abuser has abused one child, they realise just how relatively-malleable and manipulable such victims are, compared to adult women.
 
I also believe that conflating child sexual abuse and domestic abuse is fatuous - most justification for DV comes from custom, and means that those who practice it can be educated out of it. Child sex abuse is a choice, not a cultural custom, and therefore isn't amenable to education.

And you don't think a set of customs which justify domestic abuse of women could lead to contempt for, and mistreatment of women in general?
 
....I think Uberdog is trying to do something which is basically unprovable & ascribe motivations to people we don't know and can't look inside the heads of....in a way that is clearly not welcomed by most posters here, which is fair enough ..why I ducked out....although we can seemingly contemplate and read-in racial bigotry on the part of the police & authorities as feeding into their dismissive attitudes towards the CSE victims : -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/28/rotherham-abuse-class-sex-racial-bigotry

....apparently the perpetrators are such cherubs.....such choirboys....that such attitudes on their part are clearly unthinkable !?

...I tend to agree with him & am convinvced that the gross over-sexualisation of young girls & mainstreaming of porn in MSM ( obv of a mainly white complexion ) is hugely culpable in fostering the misogynistic view towards the girls that he is describing....



....I don't think this article has ever been posted....

Asian grooming: why we need to talk about sex


Special Report day two: Our investigation into the background to the Rochdale child abuse ring concludes by exploring its cultural and religious implications

Paul Vallely Friday 11 May 2012


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html




When it comes to sex, Alyas Karmani is a plain-speaking man. For a Muslim imam he is breathtakingly so. "Oral sex and anal sex are taboo in the British Pakistani community," he announces matter-of-fact way over gosht palak in his favourite curry-house just up the hill from Bradford University. "Sex is seen as only for procreation and only in the missionary position. More so if your spouse is from abroad."

He is addressing the question of whether a disproportionate number of British Asian men are involved in grooming underage girls for sex. He thinks the answer is "Yes" – which is also very plain-speaking on a subject around which the British policing, political, academic and social work establishment dances with over-sensitive diplomacy.

Yet Imam Karmani is no maverick. As well as being an imam, he is a psychologist with more than 20 years of practical experience in youth and community work. He is a former adviser to the Department for Education on youth empowerment and a one-time head of race equality for the Welsh Assembly and is now co-director of Street, a project whose name stands for Strategy to Reach, Empower and Educate Teenagers. .

One of its key projects is running courses to change the attitude of young British Pakistanis which, Alyas Karmani believes, underlie the cultural assumptions which have led a number of Asians to become involved in the on-street grooming of schoolgirls for sex. Eight men of Pakistani heritage, and an Afghan, were were convicted at Liverpool Crown Court this week of offences including four rapes, 11 charges of conspiracy to engage children in sexual activity and six of trafficking children for sexual exploitation.

"Many British Pakistani men live in two worlds," he begins. "The first is encompassed by family, business, mosque. It is a socially conservative culture where there is no toleration of sex outside of marriage, and little emphasis on sexual gratification."

Many are emotionally browbeaten into preserving their family honour by marrying a cousin from their family's village in north-west Kashmir, the part of Pakistan from which the forefathers of Bradford's Asian community originally migrated.

These new wives can bring with them "an unhealthy attitude towards sex and sexuality". It is not Islam which induces that, he says, but a traditional rural Kashmiri culture.

"The second world in which British Pakistani men live," he continues, "is the over-sexualised, material and lust-driven English lifestyle, where women are scantily clad, binge-drinking is a mainstream form of entertainment and porn is a massive factor." You might have thought that, as time passed, British Asians would have found middle ground between these two worlds.

But that has not been happening. "Patriarchs and matriarchs within families have huge influence," says the imam. "Conservatism is maintaining its grip. Around 60 to 70 per cent of British Asians, men and women, are still virgins when they marry."

For those Asians who work at night –such as taxi-drivers and takeaway workers – these two worlds collide dramatically in their workplaces which are filled with young women from a culture in which drinking to insensibility is commonplace. "Many of these men do not understand what is appropriate behaviour in wider society and what is not," he adds. "They are so lacking in social skills – because relationships between men and women in Pakistani culture are characterised by a real formality – that they can misconstrue an ordinary conversation with a white girl in their taxi and think she is indicating that she is open to a sexual advance when that is not what she means at all."

Others cannot resist the temptation aroused by women – and young girls – whose cultural assumptions are so alien from their own.

There are a number of ways, says Alyas Karmani, in which second and third generation British Pakistani men cope with the cognitive dissonance induced by living with two conflicting cultures.

Some give in to the temptations of Western life – which in an Asian urban context might mean celebrating values embodied in gangsta music and films. "It links sexual violence with gang lifestyle and glorifies it through rap and videos which degrade a man to 'pimp' and a woman to 'bitch'," Karmani says. Others turn their back on that and embrace religion, sometimes in a puritan or even jihadist way. But many are conflicted into living a double life.

They do that in a variety of ways. "Some have a wife from Pakistan and an English girlfriend by whom they may also have children," he says. "In some cases the English girlfriend predates the wife; some relationships go back to schooldays. Sometimes the arrangement is open – the wife knows about the other family but says nothing. Sometimes even the man will marry the girlfriend under Islamic law, though not under British law, obviously. Some of these relationships are exploitative, others are consensual.

"Some of these men with double lives, who lack the social skills to go out and chat up a white girl of their own age, use prostitutes for sexual gratification," he continues. "But a few abuse the sexuality of vulnerable young girls they come across as taxi-drivers and in takeaways. It's important to stress that this grooming behaviour is not an endemic pattern among Pakistani men; overall there is only a very a small minority of Pakistani men involved in grooming and sex gangs."

Some in the Asian communities resent even this very qualified criticism. Iftikhar Ahmad, of the London School of Islamics Trust, has complained that "native Brits have double standards and are hypocrites [who] don't mention the fact that the majority of men who go to countries in east Asia looking for under-aged sex are white European men".
 
continued....

But generally condemnation from religious and community leaders in the Asian community has been slowly growing over the past two years as a succession of cases has reached the courts in which men from the Asian community have been convicted of crimes involving the sexual exploitation of underage girls.

Expressions of shame, however, have outnumbered attempts at analysing whether there are specific qualities in ethnic minority culture which nurture the attitudes from which abuse springs.

Six years ago, Mohammed Shafiq, who runs the Ramadhan Foundation, a small Muslim youth organisation in Manchester, spoke out about the involvement of British Pakistanis in underage sex abuse crimes. He was roundly vilified by his own community. "I was accused of doing the work of the BNP," he recalls. "I had excrement through my door. I received death threats." His offence was to insist that "to say that ethnicity is not a factor in these crimes is a lie".

Members of Asian grooming gangs, he said, thought "that white girls are less valuable than girls from their own community, which is sick and abhorrent". This grew, he declared, from an assumption among some members of the Muslim community that "white girls have fewer morals".

More recently, up the road from Bradford in Keighley, a youth worker named Shakeel Aziz has spoken out, declaring sexual grooming to be "an extension of other criminal activity, specifically gang association and drug selling. It's really a jigsaw of different problems and issues in society that enforce one another," he said. And last year the broadcaster Adil Ray, a DJ and comedian with the BBC Asian network, set out another hypothesis in a BBC Three investigation into on-street grooming. He asked whether there was something particular about the Kashmiri culture that nurtured abusive attitudes.

Ray, who is from a Pakistani community in Birmingham, interviewed Yasmin Qureshi, the former specialist sexual offences lawyer who is now MP for Bolton South East. He noted that most of the cases of grooming by Asians occurred in the North and Midlands, which is where in the main immigrants from Kashmir settled to work in the factories and mills. The MP concurred. "In the south... there's more integration between communities," she said. "You very rarely find a school that has 80 per cent of one nationality. The people who came and settled in the south came from a much more educated, literate background... You can't take away from the fact that a lot of people come from Kashmir where some of the communities are culturally quite traditional."

This is not so far from the claim made in 2003 by Ann Cryer, then Labour MP for Keighley, that Pakistani men were exploiting local children because they had married, or been promised in marriage, "to someone they've never met, some cousin from their village in Mirpur who is almost certainly illiterate and hasn't got anything in common with them".

Alyas Karmani agrees with Mohammed Shafiq about the dissonance caused for British Pakistanis caught between two cultures. And he agrees with Shakeel Aziz that there can be an interplay between grooming and drug and gang cultures. But he does not accept the idea that Kashmiri culture is somehow more backward and thereby to blame.

"That's a flawed analysis. It's not about education. It's about access and opportunity," he says. "These men – and it's worth stressing that only a very tiny minority have deviated in this way – are not targeting white girls specifically but going for those who are most easily accessible and vulnerable, and that is by definition mainly white girls as young Asian teenagers are within the protection of the home at that time of night.

"The issues around ethnicity and sexuality are complex," he continues. "Some powerful gangsta types have white girlfriends as status symbols. They would not dream of sharing them with anyone.

"But other 'big men' think it adds to their status and kudos if they pass their conquests around to their 'brothers' under biradiri – the system of clan loyalty which has been brought here from Kashmir. That is often the case with those who abuse young girls. They involve brothers or cousins or friends from their clan."

That observation is confirmed by academic researchers working on child sex exploitation. Analysis by Ella Cockbain and Helen Brayley at University College, London's Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science shows that abusers' networks were "tightly knit and characterised by strong social bonds predating the abuse, such as kinship".

Gangs did not develop around a shared furtive interest in child sex abuse. Rather, abuse was introduced into pre-existing social networks.

"Sometimes money changes hands," says Imam Karmani. "But not large amounts. Most of the girls are enticed into relationships with the smallest of gifts – a £5 top-up for their mobile phone, a free kebab or bag of chips. Any girl who is unprotected can be targeted. It's not racist; it's opportunistic. They are usually girls from damaged or dysfunctional backgrounds, who are out on the streets at all hours."

So it is not about race, he insists, though it grows out of cultural presuppositions. "These men disrespect all women, but these white girls are more vulnerable. They objectify women, just as white footballer rapists do," he says. "Porn," he adds, "plays a big part in it."

All across the country – but mainly in Bradford, Blackburn, Manchester and London – he runs courses aimed at three key groups. "We run From Boys to Men courses for 11- to 13-year-olds to talk openly about puberty, bodily changes, sexual attraction and Islamic teaching on there being no sex before marriage," he explains. "Many have had no conversation with their fathers, because sex is an embarrassing and even shameful activity in traditional Pakistani culture.

"Sex education in schools does not address real life issues and challenges," Karmani adds – and a lot of the boys had been removed from sex education classes at school on religious grounds. "So all their information is from their peers, the streets or the internet. They have no understanding of sex in a loving relationship, or any understanding of what is permitted and forbidden in Islam. They confuse Islam with conservative Pakistani culture."

He runs run similar courses for 14-to 19-year-olds, which also deal with drugs, alcohol, gangs and violence. "Many of these kids just want an adult male to talk frankly with them. They have to learn the importance of self-respect and not being susceptible to peer pressure or older men who offer them alcohol or want to take them to the brothel. Teaching respect for themselves and respect for women is part of that. The sessions also deal with social networking and internet, violence and sex, honour killings and domestic violence, sex offending, grooming, statutory rape, "date rape" and indecent assault.

"We talk about what is abusive and what not – and about the need to respect white women and the damage that on-street grooming does to the victim, the man and the wider community," he says.

"We look at famous case histories, like Britain's youngest rapist, who was 13. We don't flinch from hard cases and will answer any questions whatsoever. And we do some hard-hitting aversion therapy using the filmed testimony of women who have been raped – who are someone's daughter and sister."

For adults, he runs a "Joy of Muslim Sex" course. "I talk to the men and my wife talks to the women," he explains. "What you have to understand is that these people are coming from a Pakistani culture in which no demonstration of affection is allowed between a married couple in public or in front of their children – not even a peck on the cheek or holding hands.

"That would be completely shameful behaviour. We try to teach them to overcome that and to be affectionate with one another, to create time and space. That's hard in a community where it's common for two brothers and their wives to live with the men's parents still.

Men like Alyas Karmani are trying to get the British Asian community to address a problem from which, he admits, it has been in denial. But it is not enough simply to point the finger at Asians, as Wendy Shepherd points out. Her long experience with Barnardo's shows that if you scratch the surface you'll find some pretty appalling attitudes towards women in the white community too.

Child sex abusers come from all backgrounds. Greater Manchester Police Assistant Chief Constable Steve Heywood said after the Rochdale convictions that his force was investigating other cases of on-street grooming which did not involve British Pakistanis. "Our experience shows us that all communities need to be vigilant to this issue." Without that many more children will suffer at the hands of such men.
 
And you don't think a set of customs which justify domestic abuse of women could lead to contempt for, and mistreatment of women in general?

I'm saying that we shouldn't draw the conclusion that because a culture includes cultural provisos that facilitate patriarchal oppression of females, we shouldn't see it as directly linked to child abuse. Child abuse, apart from anything else, has always been more of a "minority pursuit" among cultures than DV is. If the one fed into the other in any drect way, we could expect stats for intrafamilial sexual abuse to be higher in families where intrafamilial DV took place, yet that isn't the case in any community - there's no direct correlation between DV and child abuse.
 
SpookyFrank said:
As for Das Uberdog, he appears to be making the equally dodgy leap from, "some people within this community do x" to, "people in this community do x" which is clearly not the case. For a start it assumes that there even is a homogenous 'British Pakistani community' in the sense of a bunch of people who all go down the bingo together to gossip and plot.

i don't want to give the impression, just because i'm arguing against one extremity (that Pakistani culture plays absolutely no part in what has occurred with these grooming gangs) that i am arguing the other; that all Pakistanis are complicit in grooming gangs. that is expressly not my opinion, but i do believe that the prevailing culture has facilitated recent events. the article hot air baboon posts above is quite measured i think - and addresses lots of those questions from the perspective of an imam presumably with extensive knowledge of that community. my reaction on this thread was against lefties who are totally unwilling to even engage on the question, and instead reserve the entirety of their response onto criticizing the authorities (who obviously, also need criticizing).

this isn't me trying to 'blame Pakistanis' in general, though i am trying to lay some blame at the feet of particular cultural values which are prevalent in that community (values which, in most cases do not lead to child abuse but which i believe can be congruent with it).

and, to an extent, the Pakistani community does exist as a much more homogeneous entity than many of cultures - it has a centre of power, the Mosque, with an established social hierarchy, decision-makers, etc... everyone knows eachother's business and family/personal/business interests are all mediated through the Mosque. to this extent, if there are values which are being propagated which encourage an inhumane view of women or non-muslim girls, there are actually social structures through which this could be systematically challenged.

ViolentPanda said:
One thing I don't believe these cunts can be accused of is acting systematically. One of the factors that militated against them being caught, even if the police and social services had been less supine, is that they weren't systematic in targeting victims - they didn't stick to a single "racial" or "social" type, and as Jay makes clear, some of their targets told them to fuck off, and walked away unharmed.

i disagree, i think it's totally fair to describe these gangs as systematic. you don't ratchet up 1,400 victims like this without an established processing system... it seems like when new victims were chosen, there are a fairly well established channel and route through which they were integrated into the gang and then shared around. seems pretty 'systematic' to me.

Patriarchy is embedded in every culture. What pertains in Rotherham and other centres of abuse by members of the British Pakistani community is an exploitation of particular circumstances including patriarchal custom. What it isn't, is an acting out of extant cultural custom.

i find it easy to agree with this statement, and don't think it lies in contradiction with my argument - for the reason that, even if the custom is being exploited, it lends itself to exploitation due to its predication in intolerance towards towards other people or cultures.
 
Belboid is conflating an objection to certain (highly objectionable) cultural practices found in certain sections of the British Pakistani community with a racist dislike for that community as a whole.
No, its the claim that such attitude are unique, or particular, to one community that is the problem for me. That and the claim that such communities are (largely) homogenous, and so such attitudes are held throughout those societies.

Obviously, particular practises need condemning and opposing, but they will not be if you are saying its a common cultural thing. It is a common male thing that is practised in slightly different forms in different cultures, but the bottom line is the same in all of them. Attacking just one particular form of vile practise in such a scattergun way not only lets lots of other people off the hook, but it will mean that the communities being attacked (and it is the whole community, not just the actual perpetrators) becomes more defensive and less willing to adapt at all. It's a countr-productive way of working.

On the contrary if somebody didn't give a shit about Pakistani people then surely they wouldn't care about young Pakistani women being forced to marry creepy old men they've never met, or if they were subject to endemic domestic violence?
hmm, I'm not really convinced by this. It's a useful stick with which to beat someone. It's disingenuous, but bigots usually are! The BNP and EDL both go on about how Islam is appaling to women and gays, but that's not actually because they give a shi about women or gays, is it?
 
i don't want to give the impression, just because i'm arguing against one extremity (that Pakistani culture plays absolutely no part in what has occurred with these grooming gangs) that i am arguing the other; that all Pakistanis are complicit in grooming gangs. that is expressly not my opinion, but i do believe that the prevailing culture has facilitated recent events. the article hot air baboon posts above is quite measured i think - and addresses lots of those questions from the perspective of an imam presumably with extensive knowledge of that community. my reaction on this thread was against lefties who are totally unwilling to even engage on the question, and instead reserve the entirety of their response onto criticizing the authorities (who obviously, also need criticizing).

this isn't me trying to 'blame Pakistanis' in general, though i am trying to lay some blame at the feet of particular cultural values which are prevalent in that community (values which, in most cases do not lead to child abuse but which i believe can be congruent with it).

and, to an extent, the Pakistani community does exist as a much more homogeneous entity than many of cultures - it has a centre of power, the Mosque, with an established social hierarchy, decision-makers, etc... everyone knows eachother's business and family/personal/business interests are all mediated through the Mosque. to this extent, if there are values which are being propagated which encourage an inhumane view of women or non-muslim girls, there are actually social structures through which this could be systematically challenged.
Yup, just like the Catholic church. All catholics think just alike, are all homogenous. You say you dont blame all muslims, but then a moment later, do blame (nearly) all muslims. Your whole reading of this tragedy is astoundingly superficial and based on nothing more than headlines, as evidenced by your statement:

i think it's totally fair to describe these gangs as systematic. you don't ratchet up 1,400 victims like this without an established processing system.
as if all 1400 girls were abused by one great big gang. They weren't. Lots of the men had no contact with each other. There seems to have been several different gangs - based around a couple of particular firms, with a disturbing amount of people involved. And, as I've said before, if you think the figures aren't similar in every major city, then you're very much mistaken.
 
There are 3 youtube videos on this links below from the Home Affairs Select Committee 9th Sept 14 (Interestingly all witnesses were put under oath so were subject to charges of perjury if they fail to tell the truth)

The current Chief Constable David Crompton QPM, and former Chief Constable Meredydd John Hughes CBE QPM, South Yorkshire Police.

Joyce Thacker OBE, Strategic Director for Children, Young People and Families, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council, and Rotherham Council’s chief executive Martin Kimber.

Shaun Wright, South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner.


Edited to add:
This former and current Chief Constable's are a joke, all they basically said was "I know nothing" and the chair of the committee seemed to think that the former should be charged with dereliction of duty (failed to act properly) and they find his evidence to the committee unsatisfactory.
 
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There are 3 youtube videos on this links below from the Home Affairs Select Committee 9th Sept 14 (Interestingly all witnesses were put under oath so were subject to charges of perjury if they fail to tell the truth)

The current Chief Constable David Crompton QPM, and former Chief Constable Meredydd John Hughes CBE QPM, South Yorkshire Police.

Joyce Thacker OBE, Strategic Director for Children, Young People and Families, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council, and Rotherham Council’s chief executive Martin Kimber.

Shaun Wright, South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner.


Edited to add:
This former and current Chief Constable's are a joke, all they basically said was "I know nothing" and the chair of the committee seemed to think that the former should be charged with dereliction of duty (failed to act properly) and they find his evidence to the committee unsatisfactory.

Cops in "I don't recall" shocker!

Cops lying under oath shocker!

Those videos sum up how corrupt the police force is, and why all of those self serving cunts should be hung from lamp posts.
 
There are 3 youtube videos on this links below from the Home Affairs Select Committee 9th Sept 14
The only interesting session imo was that first one with the Police, largely because a few facts about the current situation emerged. The Kimber/Thacker session was almost entirely about the vile Vaz trying to get a token scalp and Shaun Wright just gave another public 'masterclass' in 'old labour' intransigence (which ultimately got him nowhere of course).

There was a more interesting session with Kimber and Thacker the following day (10th) in front of the Communities and Local Government Committee. Less grandstanding and more effective questioning left Thacker's position thoroughly undermined.
It's on the parliamenttv website (you need to install the Silverlight plugin for your browser)
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=15997

Sadly the full public PCC Panel session where Wright was told in no uncertain terms what people thought of him is not online afaik. The fragments shown on the news suggested that a lot more anger was being directed at him (and by implication the Police) than there had been at the Council Cabinet at their meeting the week before.

Thacker is now on 'indefinite sick leave'.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...children-s-boss-joyce-thacker-quits-1-6847899

ETA: updated Yorkshire Post link
 
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Well thats good and went with less fuss than the odious cunt wright
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham
Dont read it if your feeling depressed lists all the faults and there were many.
States people didn't want to know or admit the gangs were pakistani men.
Council corrupt
Social services understaffed underfunded with some complete and utter cunts in mangement bullied and disciplined anyone who pointed what the fuck was going on and betrayed at least one victimn to the gangs:mad:
Police were fucking useless:mad:
 
Almost certainly not related, but:

Dog walker finds human leg near Rochdale
Police begin hunt for more remains after body part discovered on land behind Healey Conservative Club in Whitworth

A dog walker has found a human leg, sparking a police hunt for other body parts. Lancashire police said the adult leg was discovered on land behind Healey Conservative Club in Whitworth, near Rochdale, Greater Manchester, this afternoon.

Officers have begun searching the area with the aid of police dogs. It is not yet clear how long the leg has been there or whether it belonged to a man or a woman.

A police spokesman said: "Police were called at shortly before 2.45pm today to a report that a member of the public had found a human leg on land behind Healey Conservative Club at Whitworth.

"Police are now searching the area to see if there are any further body parts and inquiries are ongoing to try to establish to whom the leg belongs."

The Conservative Club declined to comment.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/21/dog-walker-finds-human-leg
 
I always get Rotheram and Rochdale mixed up too. It doesn't help that both towns have become famous for child abuse on a large scale.
 
‘Disgust’ in Rotherham over anti-Islam comments on police Facebook page

Included in the story :
It comes as Assistant Chief Constable Ingrid Lee promised Rotherham’s three MPs it would deliver an update on its investigation into child sexual exploitation prosecutions this week.

John Healey, Sarah Champion and Kevin Barron, have demanded answers over when details of two inquiries into historic child abuse allegations and cases announced by the disgraced former Police and Crime Commissioner Shaun Wright in August last year will be published.

The trio asked for confirmation of the number of suspects being investigated, details of charges and convictions, figures on abduction notices and for the inquiry into police’s past failings to be overseen by the Independent Police Complaints Commission or National Crime Agency.

They are also seeking information on action being taken to tackle under-reporting of sexual exploitation by boys and Asian girls, a concern raised in the report.
 
Sheffield Star quotes a response from the police with figures for current investigations :
Police are investigating 18 potential suspects over the alleged abuse of almost 300 children in Rotherham during the period covered by the Jay report, it has been revealed.

Two separate ‘very large’ investigations are being carried out by South Yorkshire Police into offences against 283 victims that are said to have happened within the timeframe covered by the independent inquiry report.

Police have also revealed they are currently running 48 live child sexual exploitation inquiries in Rotherham, nine of which fall into the period covered by the Jay report, 1997 to 2013.
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...se-of-almost-300-rotherham-children-1-6854232
(I think this largely repeats information given to the Home Affairs Committee).
 
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