Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[Das Uberdog]

no you havent, you dishonest little man. You've been deliberately vague and left everything of substance out. All you've done is go 'I hate those lefties that I was really badly arguing on behalf of until a year or so ago'

dishonest, fuck off. it's literally all there word for word for you. what details are vague? do you agree that non-Muslim girls who wear short skirts are universally prostitutes and whores? do you believe that decent girls need to be brought up under the constant supervision of their patriarch, who should intervene in all of their personal affairs from a young age to ensure they live a wholesome life and are married off to a decent sort? do you believe domestic abuse regulated by scriptural precedent is justified - in moderation - to prevent your wife and children from making incorrect life decisions? do you believe that certain forms of profession are 'ungainly' for a woman, who must primarily live for housework and children and to honour her husband - and that women who take on professions dishonour their families? these are all lessons to take away from an average North West Pakistani mosque.

in some more extreme cases, do you agree that for your daughter to live a wholesome life she should educated in a private madrassa rather than state school - where she will not even be taught how to properly read, as age 12 she will be sent on a holiday back to Pakistan where she'll get married off to some respectable tribal personality from you ancestor's locality? my home town, Chorley, has a private madrassa - i've been in it, whilst trying to set up a Stop the War branch with the Mosque. the children are gender segregated (naturally) and taught, amongst other things, that polyphonic music is evil alongside everything listed above.

if there's one thing i'm not guilty of on this thread it's concealing my views. your attempt to smear me with that brush is the absolute height of disingenuousness.

 

[butchersapron]

Shaun Wright gone.

 

[ViolentPanda]

<snip>
There are no meaningful national statistics about 'localised grooming' yet because until very recently this issue was not seen as a priority (indeed for some agencies it's clear it was not even seen as a 'real' crime). I've no doubt there will be more robust national statistics pretty soon. (Figures that hopefully include offences reported AND prosecutions conducted as well as convictions). When there are it may well be that the scale of the problem in some heritage communities is far worse than we currently imagine. But until then waving these figures around risks looking rather like an exercise in giving a veneer of objectivity to your own prejudices.

Just to add, police and "criminal justice" efforts with regard to grooming offences are almost entirely concentrated on so-called "internet grooming". Cynics might say that this is because it garners plenty of camera minutes for the relevant minister. Very little effort indeed is focused on the (older and more widespread) problem of local grooming.

And why should we assume it's just the Pakistani heritage community ? Why (serious question) shouldn't the same activity be found in other heritage communities ?

Your implication that the 'real' problem is the 'right on' 'lefts' failure to respond is stomach turning. Or do you just mean their failure to tell YOU how to respond? If you do, in fact, have some 'level-headed' populist bollocks to lay on us at this point why not just get on with it?

TBF, I expect Das Uberdog has a fair quantity of animus against "the right on left", what with having been a member in good standing, once upon a time.

 

[ViolentPanda]

do these same issues recur in all tight-knit, culturally conservative and poverty-stricken communities? yes - to a degree...

The above constructs these crimes purely as an artefact of reaction and poverty. Don't be a dummy.

 

[yardbird]

Shaun Wright gone.

And I trust/hope that he's unemployable.

 

[belboid]

dishonest, fuck off. it's literally all there word for word for you. what details are vague? do you agree that non-Muslim girls who wear short skirts are universally prostitutes and whores? do you believe that decent girls need to be brought up under the constant supervision of their patriarch, who should intervene in all of their personal affairs from a young age to ensure they live a wholesome life and are married off to a decent sort? do you believe domestic abuse regulated by scriptural precedent is justified - in moderation - to prevent your wife and children from making incorrect life decisions? do you believe that certain forms of profession are 'ungainly' for a woman, who must primarily live for housework and children and to honour her husband - and that women who take on professions dishonour their families? these are all lessons to take away from an average North West Pakistani mosque.

in some more extreme cases, do you agree that for your daughter to live a wholesome life she should educated in a private madrassa rather than state school - where she will not even be taught how to properly read, as age 12 she will be sent on a holiday back to Pakistan where she'll get married off to some respectable tribal personality from you ancestor's locality? my home town, Chorley, has a private madrassa - i've been in it, whilst trying to set up a Stop the War branch with the Mosque. the children are gender segregated (naturally) and taught, amongst other things, that polyphonic music is evil alongside everything listed above.

if there's one thing i'm not guilty of on this thread it's concealing my views. your attempt to smear me with that brush is the absolute height of disingenuousness.

so, basically, your view can be summarised as 'these paki's need to sort their shit out'

 

[Das Uberdog]

and your views can be summarised as 'i agree with forced marriage'

 

[likesfish]

It is part of the problem.
Not the whole story of swarthy pathans luring innocent white girls to their doom
Not matter how swarthy and whiley they couldnt have got away with it without staggering incompetance/apathy and or corruption

 

[belboid]

and your views can be summarised as 'i agree with forced marriage'

I can show you where you have made the argument I claim for you. You cant show me where I have made the argument you have claimed for me.

You were shit at arguing when the SWP handed you a pre-made argument, and you're even worse at it now.

 

[Das Uberdog]

raking back the muck from when i was a 17 year old swappie belboid - from the arguments you're attributing to me that was at a most generous estimate 5 years ago (when i first left the party). you're one to talk about weak-ass arguments. how about you answer things i'm saying here?

 

[Das Uberdog]

and yes btw, my argument OPENLY and ALL ALONG has been that there are certain facets of prevailing culture within Pakistani communities which need to change. you seem to disagree with that, which is why you agree with forced marriage.

 

[ViolentPanda]

the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.

Even my old schooldays mate Brainy Steve, legendary for the amount of Thixofix he could huff through, would never make a statement that stupid, and he had the excuse for stupidity of murdering millions of his own braincells every day.
This isn't merely about clashing sets of social values. It's about there being "room" in the criminal justice and social services systems for such crimes to be committed in the first place, and for all you tout "1400 victims in Rotherham alone", the only reason that you're able to do so in the first place is because of the appalling attitudes of the criminal justice system and social care systems toward working class children. Attitudes that have existed far longer than Pakistani communities have in Britain.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Even my old schooldays mate Brainy Steve, legendary for the amount of Thixofix he could huff through, would never make a statement that stupid, and he had the excuse for stupidity of murdering millions of his own braincells every day.
This isn't merely about clashing sets of social values. It's about there being "room" in the criminal justice and social services systems for such crimes to be committed in the first place, and for all you tout "1400 victims in Rotherham alone", the only reason that you're able to do so in the first place is because of the appalling attitudes of the criminal justice system and social care systems toward working class children. Attitudes that have existed far longer than Pakistani communities have in Britain.

it's about lots of things all mashed together! the criminal justice system being one component part, which most of the left seems determined to focus upon at the expense of everything else.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Good post this but need to add a bit.

An office hours culture in children's services in which every thing can wait until the next morning or Monday morning , staffing levels so low in kids homes ( whether private or council) mean that staff cannot leave the home , emergency social service teams that operate only by phone. These means that after five o clock the police are the only service responsible for vulnerable kids.

Scary in and of itself.

The logical direction of travel is a round the clock integrated co located service that focuses on vulnerability .

I live in hope. I'm not holding my breath, though, because I'm fairly sure that even after the "abuse crisis" of the last half-decade or so, there won't be any extra money to provide such an integrated service. After all, what's a working class life worth these days?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.

So the social values of the Pakistani communities these men came from led to their becoming abusers? What about the social values of the non-Pakistani communities? What did they learn from the way the girls were ignored, told to go away, accused of lying, and generally treated like sub-human scum by various people charged with looking after them? Whose social values are at fault here, and in what proportion? These men did not exist in isolation from wider society.

 

[belboid]

and yes btw, my argument OPENLY and ALL ALONG has been that there are certain facets of prevailing culture within Pakistani communities which need to change. you seem to disagree with that, which is why you agree with forced marriage.

I haven't commented on that. But to do so....

Your comments are astoundingly crude (shock horror). From the actions of an unknown number of men - only some of whom are of Pakistani heritage - you have chosen to tar an entire community. You have chosen to follow the EDL etc in saying the key factor here is Pakistani prevailing culture, and have chosen to ignore all the other factors involved.

I have said quite clearly that I think this is a problem of: night-time economy workers; statutory agencies not caring about the victims (thus giving the criminals a free go, and allowing them to think they can get away with it); and all male environments. Those three things combine to make a toxic environment.

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's about lots of things all mashed together! the criminal justice system being one component part, which most of the left seems determined to focus upon at the expense of everything else.

Because without altering the way in which criminal justice and social care address such issues, space is left (as it always has been) for this shit to happen again, to someone(s) else, by another group of abusers. Close the loopholes and break the prejudices inherent to the system, and the sex offenders would have no room to groom in the first place, because the victims would have been believed, and their complaints acted on - your grooming gangs wouldn't be able to come about in the first place, just as (to reiterate what I said earlier) their historical equivalents the Maltese ponces and black pimps wouldn't.

 

[belboid]

and for all you tout "1400 victims in Rotherham alone", the only reason that you're able to do so in the first place is because of the appalling attitudes of the criminal justice system and social care systems toward working class children. Attitudes that have existed far longer than Pakistani communities have in Britain.

indeed. The thing about the figure of 1400 over 17 years, is that it is probably about the same figure (per capita) in most big towns and cities - no matter what there racial make up. The difference is that there hasn't been an investigation and cover up in other places.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And I trust/hope that he's unemployable.

His "CV" is out there on the web now. Nothing short of a name-change is going to see him in a responsible position ever again, hopefully.

 

[ViolentPanda]

indeed. The thing about the figure of 1400 over 17 years, is that it is probably about the same figure (per capita) in most big towns and cities - no matter what there racial make up. The difference is that there hasn't been an investigation and cover up in other places.

And I'd posit that one reason there hasn't been investigations and cover-ups is because the institutional attitudes to such offences, especially at the mid and upper levels of such institutions, don't see the victims as valuable enough to make a fuss over.
As I said earlier, this has all happened before, and each panic gets forgotten, until the next one. I'm sure Das Uberdog has half a point when blaming culture, but it needs to be remembered that child abuse is not normalised in Pakistani culture, and that these abusers have had to manipulate and take advantage of the more reactionary elements of Pakistani culture (as opposed to British Pakistani culture) to provide a screen for criminal action. By doing so - by manipulating reactionary elements of culture, and by playing on the fears and prejudices of their own community - it's they that are criminal, not their culture in general.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

indeed. The thing about the figure of 1400 over 17 years, is that it is probably about the same figure (per capita) in most big towns and cities - no matter what there racial make up. The difference is that there hasn't been an investigation and cover up in other places.

It's a big number, but it is believed that one taxi driver, John Worboys (not Pakistani), may have attacked hundreds on his own. A taxi driver preying on vulnerable women. What were the social values of his community that led him to do it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

So the social values of the Pakistani communities these men came from led to their becoming abusers?

The reality being that like most abusers, they took advantage of community values and mores, and manipulated them for their own ends. In effect, they groomed their communities to respond in a particular way, just as paedos groom the parents of their target, as well as the victim themselves.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The reality being that like most abusers, they took advantage of community values and mores, and manipulated them for their own ends. In effect, they groomed their communities to respond in a particular way, just as paedos groom the parents of their target, as well as the victim themselves.

Ah, now here we get somewhere. The men have agency. They know they are doing wrong, that they are transgressing. So they manipulate those around them to keep their secret. Like Worboys and thousands of other abusers before them, they acted in this way despite it being contrary to the wider social values of the various groups they belonged to.

 

[Das Uberdog]

So the social values of the Pakistani communities these men came from led to their becoming abusers? What about the social values of the non-Pakistani communities? What did they learn from the way the girls were ignored, told to go away, accused of lying, and generally treated like sub-human scum by various people charged with looking after them? Whose social values are at fault here, and in what proportion? These men did not exist in isolation from wider society.

i believe that there is an unignorable element of 'culture' in the specific nature of how these grooming networks were formed and able to function on the scale that they did - yes. which is why the same thing was repeated across so many towns all with so many similar facets. but still, the absence to take something seriously is a different scale of wrong from seeing a situation where you know someone won't be taken seriously, and exploiting that. the crime of negligence over active abuse - both are connected but i just find it bizarre how the left in general is capable of entirely ignoring one side of it.

Your comments are astoundingly crude (shock horror). From the actions of an unknown number of men - only some of whom are of Pakistani heritage - you have chosen to tar an entire community. You have chosen to follow the EDL etc in saying the key factor here is Pakistani prevailing culture, and have chosen to ignore all the other factors involved.

the vast majority of those we know about were Pakistani, and as the report from Rotherham repeatedly makes clear it was a mistake on behalf of the authorities not to see the network as an issue coming from the Pakistani community in the town. i'm not 'following the EDL' in this regard at all, because i don't follow any of their conclusions; i don't believe in their bogus myths about 'English Culture', i don't agree with their policies of mob violence to subdue a minority culture, i don't believe in advancing a 'hard nose' attitude from government which would include cracking down on civil liberties or French style assimilation policies to try and wipe out a culture, i don't believe in any of those things. i believe in having a left which is totally intolerant of bullshit conservative values and morality, calls them out for what they are when they lead to or tolerate despicable behaviour, whilst at the same time arguing for a unity of all people on a secular, progressive working class culture as the antidote (rather than recriminations). the first step towards that is not ignoring when culture does play a role in creating social crises between ethnic groups.

I have said quite clearly that I think this is a problem of: night-time economy workers; statutory agencies not caring about the victims (thus giving the criminals a free go, and allowing them to think they can get away with it); and all male environments. Those three things combine to make a toxic environment.

all of these finessed criticisms of the police and authorities are obviously correct - but they stand in this thread totally and utterly divorced from all of the other factors involved. there is a toxic environment brewing between Pakistani and non-Pakistani communities all over the North of England, it has been for decades now, and its fuelled by a total cultural disconnect in which the majority 'gentile' population are not completely in the wrong... which is a fact the left continue to ignore again and again, seeking to portray migrant communities as no more than victims of circumstance. the horrible reality is that both communities have legitimate grievances against the other - stretching back decades - and ignoring the reality of these grievances and constantly trying to avoid talking about it is not helping anything.

The reality being that like most abusers, they took advantage of community values and mores, and manipulated them for their own ends. In effect, they groomed their communities to respond in a particular way, just as paedos groom the parents of their target, as well as the victim themselves.

i completely agree with this statement - but it also has to be said that some of the prevailing values are there to be manipulated. as in, it takes fewer contortions from the normative values of a society who believe that not being a strict muslim is equivalent to being a prostitute to get to a dehumanising attitude towards non-muslim women, as opposed to a social norm which doesn't automatically place judgement on an individual from their particular religious upbringing. just as one example.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i completely agree with this statement - but it also has to be said that some of the prevailing values are there to be manipulated. as in, it takes fewer contortions from the normative values of a society who believe that not being a strict muslim is equivalent to being a prostitute to get to a dehumanising attitude towards non-muslim women, as opposed to a social norm which doesn't automatically place judgement on an individual from their particular religious upbringing. just as one example.

I think you're off the mark with this. I think you're forgetting the abuse suffered by Pakistani girls who are kept quiet about it in other ways - societal norms making them feel shame at having been abused and keeping them quiet.

This article puts it quite well, I think:

The UK Muslim Women’s Network published a report in September 2013 that looked into cases of sexual exploitation of Asian girls and women. It highlighted that they were most vulnerable to men from their own communities who were conscious of cultural norms, using them to manipulate victims into not reporting their abuse.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ual-abuse-vulnerable-girls-muslim-communities

Yes, there are problems with British Pakistani societal attitudes, but I don't think the problems are quite what you think they are. In particular, I think the idea that the men's culture led them to dehumanise non-Muslims is overstated, if not outright wrong.

 

[Das Uberdog]

i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.

Ok, but what is it about the girls that made them targets? Their race, their religion, or their vulnerability? I suggest that it is this last, their vulnerability, that is overwhelmingly the factor in their being chosen.

 

[belboid]

i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.

You're a right mess of contradictory tosh. You have to keep twisting things to support your initial argument - that Pakistani culture causes such behaviour. Even tho such behaviour has been witnessed in many other cultures, and even tho it is a tiny minority of Pakistani (and other) men behaving in such a way, and even tho it isn't wholly or solely non-Pakistani girls targetted. You are so determined to blame Pakistanis that you are blind to everything else that is happening, and causing this situation.

 

[Das Uberdog]

You're a right mess of contradictory tosh. You have to keep twisting things to support your initial argument - that Pakistani culture causes such behaviour. Even tho such behaviour has been witnessed in many other cultures, and even tho it is a tiny minority of Pakistani (and other) men behaving in such a way, and even tho it isn't wholly or solely non-Pakistani girls targetted. You are so determined to blame Pakistanis that you are blind to everything else that is happening, and causing this situation.

'twisting things to support my argument' - what, you don't like the fact that i've stuck to my point throughout the whole thread? desperation belboid, that's what's characterizing your last spate of posts. deflections about arguments i made on these boards when i was 17, gross mis-readings and oversimplifications, crude attempts to bait me into waxing off lyrical by myself in the hope i'd give you some rope to hang me with... and now you're attacking me for having a consistent argument.

Ok, but what is it about the girls that made them targets? Their race, their religion, or their vulnerability? I suggest that it is this last, their vulnerability, that is overwhelmingly the factor in their being chosen.

i agree with you again - but it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier)... the fact that Pakistanis contribute to 2/3s of the cases of known domestic abuse of Asian women also, from your own study, would further suggest to me entrenched cultural values which spill out in the fringes into varied forms of misogynistic and abusive behaviour.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

't it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier).

This is a little different, though. It might help explain how they got away with it for so long, but does it say anything about why they did it? I'm not sure it does.