bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
And yeah, I'm still watching it, and feeling manipulated.
Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims
- Thread starter Ole
- Start date
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
The fact that the story is being presented by someone of Pakistani heritage appears to whitewash the appalling prejudice. This doesn't represent the British Pakistani community.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Plays straight into EDL narrative.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Ah, the police woman says the majority of those apprehended are white men. So why why are so many convicted Asian males? Uh, racial prejudice, anyone?
1%er
Well-Known Member
As someone who lives over 7,000km from this situation I found it very interesting. I have no problem with a person who describes them-self as a British Pakistani journalist looking into something that effects the community that he comes from. From what I saw I think is was balanced and fair.
If it had been described as a documentary about sexual exploitation in the UK and had just focused on Pakistani's I'd have some sympathy with you view, but it clearly wasn't.
If it had been described as a documentary about sexual exploitation in the UK and had just focused on Pakistani's I'd have some sympathy with you view, but it clearly wasn't.
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1%er
Well-Known Member
I think your own post answers your question
A quote from your link:
This article originally said that Table 4 of the CEOP showed a majority of Asian offenders were of Pakistani origin. This was incorrect, and that part of the sentence has been removed.
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bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
As someone who lives over 7,000km from Derby you don't know wtf you are talking about.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
You are suggesting that arrest and conviction are fairly distributed ethnically? I don't think so. Asians are ten times more likely to be arrested for a start.
1%er
Well-Known Member
I'm not suggesting anything, I'm going by the figures you provided in the link you posted
I'm only taking about the documentary I watched.
It appears to me from your post that your personal prejudice has clouded your thinking (You had an opinion and decided the issue before you even watched the documentary). A British Pakistani journalist has looked at the issue in just one community, you seem to be making far more of it than that.
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bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
I've seen the whole thing now. Classic BBC moral panic. As I said before, ugh.
1%er
Well-Known Member
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
I think it's a question of the line people take through the statistics. You could take the line of the bald men, the fat men, the men with an 1Q below 100 or the men with an income below the median wage. Any one of those would make a story. What sticks out for me in that documentary is the focus on Pakistani men and a total lack of focus on gangs, drugs and mobsters. That's the real menace here, not sad sex-starved muslims creeping around in taxis.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
we've been through the stats earlier in this thread already - sex offences are one thing but grooming offences are another, with around a quarter of all convicted for grooming offences committed by 'Asians' with Asians making up 5% of the population (and of Asians, Pakistanis making overwhelmingly the largest portion). if you take actual incidences of grooming into account, the stats are far worse for Pakistanis as there have been far, far more victims amongst Pakistani grooming networks than amongst non. and, in relation to the actual grooming 'gangs' who are picking up girls in a systematic way, all of the big 5 since 1998 have been Pakistani gangs targetting non-Muslim girls (Oxford, Derby, Telford, Rochdale, Rotherham).
i'm sick to death of arguing with right on lefties who are determined to pull the wool over their own eyes here. there is clearly a self-replicating pattern of activity within certain sections of British Pakistani communities - CLEARLY. this is not all chalked down to media bias but if the left refuse to engage on the issue in a serious way then of course there will be a media bias, just as there is an absence of level-headed response.
i'm sick to death of arguing with right on lefties who are determined to pull the wool over their own eyes here. there is clearly a self-replicating pattern of activity within certain sections of British Pakistani communities - CLEARLY. this is not all chalked down to media bias but if the left refuse to engage on the issue in a serious way then of course there will be a media bias, just as there is an absence of level-headed response.
1%er
Well-Known Member
There is something very seriously wrong with a society in which police, healthcare and childcare professionals appear willing to turn a blind eye to the rape and sexual abuse of young working-class girls for fear of being branded racist.
What on earth has lead to this appalling situation?
What on earth has lead to this appalling situation?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There's something seriously wrong when these authorities don't give a shit about vulnerable girls. But the excuse given by some of them that fear of being branded racist stopped them from acting needs to be treated with caution. This is what they say happened, but not necessarily what happened.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
That's just bollocks tho. The police didn't care about being seen as racist, they just didn't give a fuck about the girls involved. And it was overwhelmingly the police's fault that cases weren't taken forward - them and the CPS. There are cases every single day where there will be no prosecution - and where race has absolutely no influence over matters - because the CPS decide that the victim wont make a 'good enough' witness, and so the cases are dropped.
Childcare professionals were, by and large, the ones making the complaints and trying to get them heard. Fear of being branded racist only played a very very small part in things not happening sooner.
I suggest you read the report.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Criminal ethnic orgin pakistani gangs get into this crime because they have members in taxis/other nightime economy and theirs vulnerable victims plus tight knit community likely to keep quiet about abuse because violent gangster have much more of a grip over a tight knit community.
Being known as part of a hard family only works if the people your trying to threaten have heard of you otherwise its just embarrassing
Much like criminal ex etonians do insider trading and fraud oppurtunity access to the city and cash helps olus having a network will keep the roozers at bay for awhile.
Being known as part of a hard family only works if the people your trying to threaten have heard of you otherwise its just embarrassing
Much like criminal ex etonians do insider trading and fraud oppurtunity access to the city and cash helps olus having a network will keep the roozers at bay for awhile.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You appear to be taking as read that the claims in the first paragraph of your post are accurate - that a deliberate and wide-ranging conspiracy took place down to fear of racism.
Because, of course, it couldn't possibly have come about because of classism, the institutional culture of police services, racism and plain incompetence, all mixed together with poor staffing and absolutely shoddy institutional accountablity on the part of social services depts, could it?
Here's the thing: This sort of "abuse ring" isn't new. The suborning of children into prostitution through emotional blackmail and through violence isn't new. The FAILURE TO ACT isn't new. We've been here before. The only "new" feature is the loading of blame almost entirely onto the British Pakistani communities. 50 years ago it was predominantly blamed on "Maltese ponces"; 40 years ago on "Black pimps"; 30 years ago it was "care home staff", and so on and so on. Give us another decade and the same problems will STILL be around, but they'll probably be blamed on eastern or Central European communities.
What does the above tell you? It tells me two very important things:
1) That while the British Pakistani community in many of these areas may be implicated, the problem doesn't originate with them, but with the way the state and its' various apparatuses think about and deal with "the lower orders".
2) That every time the extent to which children, and especially children in care are abused, lots of promises are made, but they comprise "sound and fury...signifying nothing".
I'm sure there are more than a few of us on here that either knew people in care as kids, or were in care, and knew this stuff was going on around them. I certainly knew kids back in the '70s and '80s who thought that abuse was just part of being "in care", and some who even accepted being pimped as their punishment for somehow having failed at life. People prey on that, whether they're Pakistani, Polish or whatever.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
There's something seriously wrong when the authorities don't give a shit about vulnerable anyone, whether they be children, adults or the elderly. However, we need to analyse what the "don't give a shit" is based on.
In my own experience, to simplify the issues, it's the perceived result of a number of separate issues:
1) The switch from service provision to service commissioning forced on social services depts by new Labour.
2) The costs implications of the above (insert a new layer of bureaucracy, and the money to pay for the bureaucracy invariably comes from funds that would otherwise have paid for services).
3) The shabby state of care provision in most local authority homes, often extending back decades, due to increasing priority being given to services for the elderly post-around the late 1970s.
4) Police attitudes to and perceptions of working class children and their social value per se, and how that places working class children in care on an even lower rung.
5) Institutional reactions to previous abuse scandals - if the centre (i.e. central government) reacts by covering shit up, this sets an example to the periphery (local government) that's overwhelmingly-likely to be followed.
6) Institutional attitudes across the institutions dealing with children in care, and how they're informed by the social class of those who are part of those institutions.
7) Political considerations at both local and central level
Lurdan
old wave
Indeed - someone posted the figures from the CEOP's report without any reference to the strong reservations CEOP expressed about them, then threw a hufty fit when this was pointed out and cited a more 'reliable' source - articles in the the Murdoch press. Oh wait that was you.
There are no meaningful national statistics about 'localised grooming' yet because until very recently this issue was not seen as a priority (indeed for some agencies it's clear it was not even seen as a 'real' crime). I've no doubt there will be more robust national statistics pretty soon. (Figures that hopefully include offences reported AND prosecutions conducted as well as convictions). When there are it may well be that the scale of the problem in some heritage communities is far worse than we currently imagine. But until then waving these figures around risks looking rather like an exercise in giving a veneer of objectivity to your own prejudices.
And why should we assume it's just the Pakistani heritage community ? Why (serious question) shouldn't the same activity be found in other heritage communities ?
Your implication that the 'real' problem is the 'right on' 'lefts' failure to respond is stomach turning. Or do you just mean their failure to tell YOU how to respond? If you do, in fact, have some 'level-headed' populist bollocks to lay on us at this point why not just get on with it?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
who threw a 'hufty fit'? the reason to lay some criticism at the Pakistani community's door is because OF ALL THE GROOMING GANG CASES FOUND EMANATING FROM THAT COMMUNITY as opposed to the currently hypothetical crimes which may or may not have occurred elsewhere.
and what response should we have? i have been pretty up front and honest with my views this whole thread, your sneery aspersions toward imagined 'hufty-fits' notwithstanding... there are some opinions, often surprisingly widespread, held across many Pakistani communities in this country which i find frankly appalling, as would anybody who believes in any kind of common universal equality between people, genders, ethnic groups, etc. there are a great many cultural practices, from forced marriages to honour killings, which are totally incompatible with any society which values the personal freedom and right of an individual to live a life as they choose. and, in this case, there is a clear re-emerging criminal pattern of behaviour - targetted almost exclusively at non-muslim girls - emanating from one criminal section of several of these communities which cannot be entirely unrelated to these factors.
do these same issues recur in all tight-knit, culturally conservative and poverty-stricken communities? yes - to a degree - although clearly in this case there has been a surfeit of activity and the scale and organisation of these gangs since 1998 is unparalleled in this country, in comparison to anything found elsewhere. 1,400 victims in Rotherham alone, over a decade - at a conservative estimate! and at the same time this is happening, we have a left determined to do anything apart from admit that there is a problem. perversely, you lay all your disgust and contempt at the hands of the 'authorities failing to act' rather than the actual perpetrators of the fucking crime, for whom you've got absolutely nothing other than passing references!! authorities failing to act is one thing - and it's obviously really bad - but it's a seriously skewed morality to act as though that is the most notably appalling thing that has occurred during this case.
i've never attempted to hide my views on the matter and it's pretty risible for you to infer otherwise. i know exactly how to respond to sit right with my own scruples, and your cowardly squirming away from dealing with awkward truths is not it.
and what response should we have? i have been pretty up front and honest with my views this whole thread, your sneery aspersions toward imagined 'hufty-fits' notwithstanding... there are some opinions, often surprisingly widespread, held across many Pakistani communities in this country which i find frankly appalling, as would anybody who believes in any kind of common universal equality between people, genders, ethnic groups, etc. there are a great many cultural practices, from forced marriages to honour killings, which are totally incompatible with any society which values the personal freedom and right of an individual to live a life as they choose. and, in this case, there is a clear re-emerging criminal pattern of behaviour - targetted almost exclusively at non-muslim girls - emanating from one criminal section of several of these communities which cannot be entirely unrelated to these factors.
do these same issues recur in all tight-knit, culturally conservative and poverty-stricken communities? yes - to a degree - although clearly in this case there has been a surfeit of activity and the scale and organisation of these gangs since 1998 is unparalleled in this country, in comparison to anything found elsewhere. 1,400 victims in Rotherham alone, over a decade - at a conservative estimate! and at the same time this is happening, we have a left determined to do anything apart from admit that there is a problem. perversely, you lay all your disgust and contempt at the hands of the 'authorities failing to act' rather than the actual perpetrators of the fucking crime, for whom you've got absolutely nothing other than passing references!! authorities failing to act is one thing - and it's obviously really bad - but it's a seriously skewed morality to act as though that is the most notably appalling thing that has occurred during this case.
i've never attempted to hide my views on the matter and it's pretty risible for you to infer otherwise. i know exactly how to respond to sit right with my own scruples, and your cowardly squirming away from dealing with awkward truths is not it.
Lurdan
old wave
All the Asian's arrested so far were of Pakistani heritage ? How do you know that ? You don't. Heritage communities are to blame for the activities of the criminals among them ? Grooming gangs "emanate" from them ? Is that in the same way that bigotry "emanates" from other heritage communities ?
"Currently hypothetical crimes" ? So you're suggesting that without yet knowing the scale of 'localised grooming' we jump to some conclusions where the problem is and what causes it ? Personally I think that the process of looking properly will show that the scale of this issue is far greater than is currently believed. But then unlike you I'm not looking for easy answers. And I'm particularly not looking for easy answers that suggest that the problem can be safely laid at the door of some other community and has nothing to do with attitudes and behaviours right across the society I'm part of.
There are appalling attitudes towards women, children and particularly vulnerable women and children across every section of this society. Are the attitudes of the Pakistani heritage abusers in Rotherham towards their victims worse than the identical attitudes of contempt held by the police ? It would appear you think they are. Why is that ?
I have no difficulty at all in directing my anger at who committed the abuse, at those, in particular the police, who facilitated the abuse, and still have plenty to spare for thick bigots who want to 'explain' this criminal abuse by blaming the ethnic background of the abusers.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
i haven't said that all arrested were of Pakistani heritage (that is actually definitively not the case) but the vast majority in the cases of Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Derby and Oxford were. that is a definitive fact.
if you believe that attitudes towards women and children are not, on average, worse in the Pakistani community than in general British society then you simply haven't had experience of the Pakistani community. and you are refusing to integrate any events or evidence which are put in your way in your determination to relativise cultural experiences.
the Police didn't rape a bunch of children - are you kidding me? they failed to take the case seriously, a crime in itself but one which is of a totally different calibre. i know you see yourself as attempting to 'balance off' the debate by making them your primary focus but that is a cynical political position, not based on an honest assessment of the situation but on 'pragmatic' realpolikal reasoning.
this is a disgusting, decadent sophistry on your part. your argument may well be 'harder' to make, in that it lays blame at the foot of the authorities rather than an already socially maligned community - but unfortunately that doesn't make it any less wrong. and as it stands you appear to have no idea of the depth of the anger in working class communities around the North West and elsewhere (i have also lived in Sheffield and saw much of the same there) and how this constant relativistic bullshit is totally failing to provide any suitable answer as to how primarily two divided communities are supposed to continue to be peaceable neighbours after these kind of events have occurred.
for starters, stop denying there is a problem when there is a problem.
Lurdan said:
if you believe that attitudes towards women and children are not, on average, worse in the Pakistani community than in general British society then you simply haven't had experience of the Pakistani community. and you are refusing to integrate any events or evidence which are put in your way in your determination to relativise cultural experiences.
the Police didn't rape a bunch of children - are you kidding me? they failed to take the case seriously, a crime in itself but one which is of a totally different calibre. i know you see yourself as attempting to 'balance off' the debate by making them your primary focus but that is a cynical political position, not based on an honest assessment of the situation but on 'pragmatic' realpolikal reasoning.
this is a disgusting, decadent sophistry on your part. your argument may well be 'harder' to make, in that it lays blame at the foot of the authorities rather than an already socially maligned community - but unfortunately that doesn't make it any less wrong. and as it stands you appear to have no idea of the depth of the anger in working class communities around the North West and elsewhere (i have also lived in Sheffield and saw much of the same there) and how this constant relativistic bullshit is totally failing to provide any suitable answer as to how primarily two divided communities are supposed to continue to be peaceable neighbours after these kind of events have occurred.
for starters, stop denying there is a problem when there is a problem.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Define the problem for us.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Go on, tell us more.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
work it out yourself you cretin. i've put it there in writing
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
no you havent, you dishonest little man. You've been deliberately vague and left everything of substance out. All you've done is go 'I hate those lefties that I was really badly arguing on behalf of until a year or so ago'
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Good post this but need to add a bit.
An office hours culture in children's services in which every thing can wait until the next morning or Monday morning , staffing levels so low in kids homes ( whether private or council) mean that staff cannot leave the home , emergency social service teams that operate only by phone. These means that after five o clock the police are the only service responsible for vulnerable kids.
The logical direction of travel is a round the clock integrated co located service that focuses on vulnerability .
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