Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[littlebabyjesus]

Seriously???

Bleddy hell, that's weak.

Necessary precondition for this to happen.

Working up from the bottom,

You have the men who carried out the abuse.
>
Above them are the local gangster-politicians (sorry, 'community leaders') who protected them.
>
Said local gangster-politicians gained leverage with the state by making themselves the link that could look out for potential terrorists.
>
The radicalisation of British Muslims has been driven on by the actions of the British government in starting wars in Muslim countries.


Work that list back up the other way, and the chain that enabled this to happen remains unconnected without Blair's wars.

 

[butchersapron]

Nah, this sort of model of community control has been going on since the scarman report into the 81 riots.

 

[Diamond]

what do you think is the difference in qualification required to be a visiting professor and a full professor?

The point is that Jay doesn't appear to be "visiting" as a "professor" from anywhere in particular.

Therefore she has no security of tenure, which is ultimately a reflection on her capabilities, albeit in a traditional sense.

 

[Diamond]

Necessary precondition for this to happen.

Working up from the bottom,

You have the men who carried out the abuse.
>
Above them are the local gangster-politicians (sorry, 'community leaders') who protected them.
>
Said local gangster-politicians gained leverage with the state by making themselves the link that could look out for potential terrorists.
>
The radicalisation of British Muslims has been driven on by the actions of the British government in starting wars in Muslim countries.


Work that list back up the other way, and the chain that enabled this to happen remains unconnected without Blair's wars.

That is a mightily tenuous argument that is wholly unsupported.

Tosh, in other words.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That is a mightily tenuous argument that is wholly unsupported.

Tosh, in other words.

No, it's rather well supported.

 

[J Ed]

Necessary precondition for this to happen.

Working up from the bottom,

You have the men who carried out the abuse.
>
Above them are the local gangster-politicians (sorry, 'community leaders') who protected them.
>
Said local gangster-politicians gained leverage with the state by making themselves the link that could look out for potential terrorists.
>
The radicalisation of British Muslims has been driven on by the actions of the British government in starting wars in Muslim countries.


Work that list back up the other way, and the chain that enabled this to happen remains unconnected without Blair's wars.

I don't even mean anything as elaborate as that, what I mean is that without the already inflamed 'community relations' as a result of Blair's wars there would be a lot less perceived need to tread softly on issues like this.

 

[butchersapron]

The point is that Jay doesn't appear to be "visiting" as a "professor" from anywhere in particular.

Therefore she has no security of tenure, which is ultimately a reflection on her capabilities, albeit in a traditional sense.

Or, she was busy doing some proper directly relevant hands-on work. What a ridiculous post.

Have you rowed back from your embarrassingly crude, this is simply anti-white racism reading yet?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Nag, this sort of model of community control has been going on since the scarman report into the 81 riots.

The Bradford, Burnley, Oldham etc riots were Summer 2001, i.e. before WTC and Iraq.

The aftermath of the riots seems to have increased the co-dependency of Labour and 'community leaders' in South Asian areas.

(can't recall source for latter point but will have a dig for it)

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't even mean anything as elaborate as that, what I mean is that without the already inflamed 'community relations' as a result of Blair's wars there would be a lot less perceived need to tread softly on issues like this.

did the sierra leone adventure lead to community relations issues?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

... and the Bradford etc riots were Summer 2001

Sure, this started before Blair's wars. Blair's crackdown on civil liberties started before Blair's wars. The wars exacerbated everything, though.

 

[Diamond]

Or, she was busy doing some proper directly relevant hands-on work. What a ridiculous post.

Have you rowed back from your embarrassingly crude, this is simply anti-white racism reading yet?

I know that you are a grievous offender on this front but might you, for once, stop caricaturing others' opinions?

 

[Diamond]

No, it's rather well supported.

Please provide that support.

 

[butchersapron]

I know that you are a grievous offender on this front but might you, for once, stop caricaturing others' opinions?

This was your postition. It's not a caricature:

In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.

...attempt to camouflage it in poncy writing all you like, but in essence and in articulation, this was the crude position that you adopted.

 

[bluescreen]

They are going to wheel on Anne Cryer on WatO.

 

[butchersapron]

I know that you are a grievous offender on this front but might you, for once, stop caricaturing others' opinions?

Why did you ignore the first part of that post - the bit that undermined you attempt to suggest that Jay is not competent to have headed this investigation? Bear in mind that unless you are a full professor i'm not going to take you or what you write seriously - even if you have many years direct experience in the field at all levels.

 

[butchersapron]

They are going to wheel on Anne Cryer on WatO.

Wheel on is a bit dismissive - she was fighting against this in Keighley when many others were keeping their head/careers down.

 

[bluescreen]

Yes, sorry about the tone there. But she did have a persistent angle on the race of the perps.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Sure, this started before Blair's wars. Blair's crackdown on civil liberties started before Blair's wars. The wars exacerbated everything, though.

Sure, but I think that some of the causes of this situation become clearer if you look at the earlier period.

Serious unemployment problems, with these 'community leaders' generally being a key source of jobs in the area.

Racial tensions that precede all the islamic terror panic stuff of the post-911 world, with NF and BNP making a lot of noise.

I wonder if those tensions weren't perhaps exacerbated by local outrage about child abuse/grooming that was already going on in the 90's in most of these places and evidently not being dealt with.

Does anyone recall the latter coming up as a cause for 2001 riots?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Please provide that support.

Read the thread. Support for this idea of the structure of events is in this thread.

The only bit that's really in serious doubt is how different this would have been without the wars. I would judge that, at the very least, the wars made everything worse. But I accept that the roots of the problem predate them.

 

[bluescreen]

Tbh I'm very uneasy about the issue of race here. The notion of gangs who have a cultural affinity is where it stops, I hope.

E2A that was a response to butchers who complained, perceptively, that I was dismissive of Anne Cryer.

 

[Diamond]

This was your postition. It's not a caricature:



...attempt to camouflage it in poncy writing all you like, but in essence and in articulation, this was the crude position that you adopted.

Your response to that accusation is to selectively quote what I have written?

Seriously?

 

[butchersapron]

Your response to that accusation is to selectively quote what I have written?

Seriously?

My response to is post your summary of what you think this abuse amounted to, yes. If you're going to deny that you argued this abuse was anti-white racism then go ahead.

 

[Diamond]

Read the thread. Support for this idea of the structure of events is in this thread.

The only bit that's really in serious doubt is how different this would have been without the wars. I would judge that, at the very least, the wars made everything worse.

The problem with argument, which sometimes makes it a little tiresome, is that it is good manners to provide evidence for stuff that you advance, usually the more you advance the more evidence that one has to provide, so to put your rather bold argument and then refer essentially to "all that stuff that other people have said" as your evidence base tends to fatally wound the point that you are trying to make.

 

[butchersapron]

Tbh I'm very uneasy about the issue of race here. The notion of gangs who have a cultural affinity is where it stops, I hope.

E2A that was a response to butchers who complained, perceptively, that I was dismissive of Anne Cryer.

I think part of the thing with Cryer is that she came from outside of the sort of professional social service culture and didn't have the language and grasp of ways to say things without saying them that they did so she tended to just talk openly about race - but without meaning race.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The problem with argument, which sometimes makes it a little tiresome, is that it is good manners to provide evidence for stuff that you advance, usually the more you advance the more evidence that one has to provide, so to put your rather bold argument and then refer essentially to "all that stuff that other people have said" as your evidence base tends to fatally wound the point that you are trying to make.

Have you read the thread? I'm just not repeating myself, that's all.

 

[butchersapron]

Sure, but I think that some of the causes of this situation become clearer if you look at the earlier period.

Serious unemployment problems, with these 'community leaders' generally being a key source of jobs in the area.

Racial tensions that precede all the islamic terror panic stuff of the post-911 world, with NF and BNP making a lot of noise.

I wonder if those tensions weren't perhaps exacerbated by local outrage about child abuse/grooming that was already going on in the 90's in most of these places and evidently not being dealt with.

Does anyone recall the latter coming up as a cause for 2001 riots?

The accusations were certainly in the air at the time and well before.

 

[Sue]

There appear to be parallels with what happened in Oxford re taxi drivers, late-night takeaways, drug dealing, very dubious 'community leaders' being cosied up to by political parties in return for delivering the 'community vote'.

 

[ViolentPanda]

does anyone that dosen't have a pre existing anti-pc agenda( the "i'll call a spade a spade and a black person a ******* if i want to" twonks) actually believe that that the police are so obsessed with not looking racist that this was the only or even major reason for not investigating rapes, especially considering the long term, widespread failures that have been highlighted in their handling of rape cases, eg, mistreatment of victims, or recording reported rapes as 'no crime.

reporting their failures as due to a fear of accusation of racism is about absolving them of responsibility, 'the left' the 'pc brigade' etc can be blamed for this fucking abysmal failure (and for their reputation for being a bunch of racist arseholes), rather than having to take a good fucking look as to why they might be called racist and why they failed to do their jobs properly

Yep, it's pretty much a mask for institutional racism on the part of some agencies, although we shouldn't forget that this institutional racism that's being masked by claims of "political correctness" is only part of the issue. Other parts are (not exhaustively):

1) The "chilling effect" of having to use so-called community leaders as a "mediating layer" in negotiations and enquiries about the sex offenders.
2) The large-scale structural changes in local authority social services provision and funding since the mid '80s causing an atmosphere of impermanence in many social services depts.
3) The unfamiliarity and obstinancy of police about their role in child protection - for the first half a decade after multi-agency coordination was made mandatory in (IIRC) 2002, both social services and the OB were more concerned about "turf" than about cases, in some depts.
4) Class and gender attitudes - Simplistically, the police were/are wont to look down on women and/or the working classes (especially since the "graduatisation" of policing), and social workers are historically more often drawn from the middle class.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

There appear to be parallels with what happened in Oxford re taxi drivers, late-night takeaways, drug dealing, very dubious 'community leaders' being cosied up to by political parties in return for delivering the 'community vote'.

I suspect that it's a bit more than getting the vote out. I get the idea that those dodgy community leaders are the focus for wider forms of political and even social control, particularly in the period following the 2001 Oldham, Bradford, Burnley etc riots.

For example, providing intelligence on unauthorised political activity within their 'manor', getting into all kinds of dodgy backscratching with the local cops etc.

See also:

Back in 2001, the London charity Southall Black Sisters, which has been campaigning against domestic violence since the 1970s, put me in touch with a social worker who had recently been transferred to Bradford. She told me how she had found herself the only woman at a post-riot “community relations” meeting where, she claimed, community leaders asked the police to pass any complaints of domestic violence from Pakistani women straight to them. They would “sort it” themselves. The worker said she challenged this, but felt that if she hadn’t been there the police would have agreed.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-rotherham-abuse-scandal-pakistani-community

 

[ViolentPanda]

I stand to be proven wrong, but the idea that in this country, the police and other authorities will look the other way and let you get away with more stuff if you're a member of an ethnic minority, well, that's not the police force I know.

It's not the OB I know, either. In fact I'd go as far as to say that such an idea flies in the face of the experiences not only of ethnic minorities in Britain, but of the working class as well (try living in a "white" area, and in the absence of racism as an outlet, coppers invariably use class as a determinant for whether to shit on you or not).