Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[butchersapron]

Here's piece that he took that ethnic-mysoginy from:

In Rotherham, this ethnic misogyny then ran up against the institutional misogyny of the police and the mostly white council. Ms Jay writes of one female employee at the council being told that if she wore shorter skirts to meetings “she’d get on better” and other senior male officials making explicit sexual remarks to female workers. Some senior police officers clearly saw the abused girls simply as sexually precocious young women

Note institutional misogyny (white) vs ethnic misogyny (asian). Murky waters even for someone like diamond.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wut?

How is the Economist part of the problem of Child Sexual Abuse in Rotherham?

Their proferring of Establishment "logic" to supposedly explain a complex set of social and structural failings via "ethnic misogyny", perhaps?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Very murky waters. I see that the article mentions in parentheses that Pakistani girls had also been abused, but brazenly ignores this in its claim that the men saw white women as fair game.

It's almost like fuckwit bingo: pornography and rap music both get a name check.

Lazy, even by The Economist's standards.

 

[butchersapron]

Very murky waters. I see that the article mentions in parentheses that Pakistani girls had also been abused, but brazenly ignores this in its claim that the men saw white women as fair game.

It's almost like fuckwit bingo: pornography and rap music both get a name check.

Lazy, even by The Economist's standards.

Note also, it blames rap music.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here's piece that he took that ethnic-mysoginy from:

It's crap. Even the strap is wishful thinking. It's not a "distinctively British" phenomenon at all Less than 10 years ago a similar furore (with similar accusations of political correctness and cultural misogyny being bandied) occurred in Paris with regard to a supposed rape culture in the North African-dominated Banluies (sp) that had supposedly been going on since the '60s.

Note institutional misogyny (white) vs ethnic misogyny (asian). Murky waters even for someone like diamond.

I don't think he ever takes off his blinkers for long enough to even see that the water is murky.

 

[butchersapron]

(and btw, this thread is of no consequence - a point that is worth underlining in light of "heated" exchanges)

Posters are well aware of the lack of consequence of such threads. Nice of you to remind us, though, even if it was only to boost your own ego by doing so.

I don't know just what motivated that latest you're all cunts and i'm better than you thing from diamond, but it is of consequence if imagined as part of a wider social debate - to me, if not the state's immediate actions. It is of consequence to potential on-the-ground developments in the area i live in. I know Diamond thinks he's above everything and everyone though (because he's passed some law exams i gather) which is why he doesn't think any of this matters. It's just an opp to be pompous - make crude evidenced claims and write like he's reading the bumper book of peregrine worsthorne for style tips. There's a discussion going on diamond, any chance you could try and take part without spitting on the people involved?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I really don't understand what this means.

It means that hot air baboon is a fuck-knuckle who needs a good shoeing for trying to make racist capital out of this whole sorry mess.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Despite the determined attempts to derail, I think this thread has got somewhere important. Thanks everyone. I have learned a lot from it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's appalling the way people are talking about Muslims or even just people of Pakistani heritage as if they were a monolith.

I've attempted to make the poin that that neither Pakistanis or Muslims in general are homogeneous, but many people don't want to listen, because to do so would contradict their simplistic internalised beliefs.

Who are these community leaders anyway, what power do they exercise, who elected them, whom do they represent and how does their electorate get rid of them?

I can only speak for what I know in SW London, but most of them are unelected, and while not exactly "self-appointed", are the personality type to always put themselves forward if there's a chance of a sniff of power and/or influence without responsibility, especially if there's a void to be filled. I saw this as a school governor, and as a political activist. While some do indeed represent the normative views of their community, they don't often represent the more nuanced views of individuals in the community, and will indeed use their "status" to suppress such views.
IMO the problem doesn't actually reside in their existence so much as in there being no established checks and balances to the power so-called "community leaders" from any community can garner and exercise.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what that article does highlight is that the refusal to record investigate sexual offenses is not something just found in that area, but appears to be a problem everywhere.

An attitude that has always been prevalent, and which is reinforced by the managerialism rampant within the PoliceServices.

 

[Lurdan]

Besides "Hmm, I see that Diamond is still reading The Economist. I wonder if he still thinks he's some sort of anarcho-capitalist?"?
I'd say that whoever coined the term "ethnic misogyny" doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Ethnic misogyny implies an ingrained social response across an ethnic culture. This would mean, in terms of Rotherham, that all British Pakistani men in Rotherham could be expected to manifest a thoroughgoing hatred of any and all women. That doesn't happen.

Being curious (and a little bored) I looked for this article
http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ld-sex-abuse-scandal-see-no-evil-hear-no-evil

The relevant bit is

What the report does not spell out, but which is true, is that the horrors in Rotherham fit into a pattern. In other northern towns such as Oldham and Rochdale, as well as in southern cities such as Oxford, gangs of Asian men have been convicted of grooming and abusing young, mostly white girls. This is a specific ethnic issue more than a religious one, says a community worker in a city near Rotherham. Young Pakistani men are increasingly alienated from their conservative parents, who want them to marry girls from back home (often the Mirpur district in Kashmir) and also from religious leaders, who often cannot speak English. Discussions of sex are taboo at home and in the mosque, so some learn about it from pornography, about misogyny from rap music and come to view white women as fair game (though the report also suggests Pakistani girls were abused, and that this was hushed up).

In Rotherham, this ethnic misogyny then ran up against the institutional misogyny of the police and the mostly white council. (...)

This is a slightly more sophisticated (and arguably more offensive) line of bullshit than some others but it is still discussing this as if it was all just a recreational activity rather than a commercial venture. (Something you'd have thought The Economist might be alert to). And it still begs the question as to what this magic ethnic glue is which transforms tensions and 'second-generation' issues which exist in many communities into organized commercial sexual exploitation. Is it because members of the Pakistani heritage community are so 'simple' or 'backward' that they are incapable of resisting the blandishments of pornography and rap music ? Is the 'sexual repression' especially sooper-repressive repression so that their 'primitive instincts', so much 'closer to nature', cannot contain their drives ?

Fuck off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem with argument, which sometimes makes it a little tiresome, is that it is good manners to provide evidence for stuff that you advance, usually the more you advance the more evidence that one has to provide, so to put your rather bold argument and then refer essentially to "all that stuff that other people have said" as your evidence base tends to fatally wound the point that you are trying to make.

The usual etiquette on here is that one is expected to read the thread before jumping in. Doing so would have familiarised you with what lbj was talking about but, as usual, you've just dropped your metaphorical trousers and shat on the thread at the point at which you encountered it. Well done.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't necessarily see it as implausible in the case of community 'leaders' who are in a position to do valuable favours for the cops, in effect by acting as agents of state control over the community in question while perhaps also facilitating a nice bit of graft.

Now now Bernie, it's not "graft", it's a legitimate perk of public service work.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A surfeit of other demands preying upon your time presumably.

It's probably more that he thinks you're a cunt. That is usually the reason, isn't it?

 

[Diamond]

God rest ye merry gentlemen.

You are, I fear, rather confused.

I am otherwise engaged at present but will return in due course to help explain things in a fashion more amenable to your facilities.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't bother. This sort of thing isn't needed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't know just what motivated that latest you're all cunts and i'm better than you thing from diamond, but it is of consequence if imagined as part of a wider social debate - to me, if not the state's immediate actions. It is of consequence to potential on-the-ground developments in the area i live in.

Quite. This ties in with the lived experience of many of us who live and were reared in multicultural environments - not necessarily the sexual abuse element or the supposed centrality of British Pakistani males, but the interface between communities, community leaders and officialdom, whether than be the police or local authorities, and how that interface is (ab)used.

I know Diamond thinks he's above everything and everyone though (because he's passed some law exams i gather) which is why he doesn't think any of this matters.

Gosh, he's passed some exams!
I suppose that makes him far more learned than any other poster!

It's just an opp to be pompous - make crude evidenced claims and write like he's reading the bumper book of peregrine worsthorne for style tips.

Windbaggery is notorious as a cover for being an eejit.

There's a discussion going on diamond, any chance you could try and take part without spitting on the people involved?

But that would be so draining, and so unfulfilling.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So does anyone have more info on the "Risky Business raid" alleged by the Times?

Rotherham’s current chief executive Martin Kimber today said he could find no evidence of an alleged raid by council staff on one of their own offices to remove evidence of the extent of the town’s sex abuse crisis.

The Times reported that the offices of Risky Business, a youth project that worked with vulnerable young people, was targeted in 2002. It alleged that the only material and files removed were those used by Dr Heal to produce draft chapters of her report, which had been passed to officials in the town,

Mr Kimber said: “The alleged ‘raid’ on the Risky Business office is not something that I am aware of and having made appropriate checks within the council, I am unable to find anyone who recognises this series of events as they have been presented to us.

“Similarly, I have been unable to find any reference within the Alexis Jay report to the alleged incident and have no other independent means of corroborating the allegations that are being put forward. If further information is made available which enables me to do so, I would be happy to look into it.”

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ief-faces-probe-on-grooming-scandal-1-6812171

Risky Business were some sort of youth outreach programme mentioned in the Jay report as about the only organisation who were credible to the girls who were being abused, about the only one taking the cases seriously and apparently the source for a lot of the stuff in Dr Heal's report.

The Times seems to be the source for claims that they were raided and had files taken, but the detail seems awfully sketchy. Anyone know more about this aspect?

 

[phildwyer]

In the 50s and 60s it was the Jamaicans who were supposedly raping our women all over the place. This was the allegation that started the 1958 Notting Hill riots in fact. Twas racist nonsense then and tis racist nonsense now.

 

[1%er]

A House of Commons committee is to investigate whether Tony Blair's government knew about the Rotherham child abuse scandal, as far back as 2001.

The Independent on Sunday reported an inquiry will happen after it emerged a researcher at the Home Office was conducting an investigation in 2002 into trafficking and underage prostitution by Muslim gangs in Rotherham.

But her work was shelved by the Labour-run council when she attempted to blow the whistle.

more here

 

[Red Cat]

It hasn't 'emerged', it was stated very clearly in the Jay Report.

 

[Lurdan]

So does anyone have more info on the "Risky Business raid" alleged by the Times?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ief-faces-probe-on-grooming-scandal-1-6812171

Risky Business were some sort of youth outreach programme mentioned in the Jay report as about the only organisation who were credible to the girls who were being abused, about the only one taking the cases seriously and apparently the source for a lot of the stuff in Dr Heal's report.

The Times seems to be the source for claims that they were raided and had files taken, but the detail seems awfully sketchy. Anyone know more about this aspect?

A number of newspapers picked up the story from the Times piece. As usual the most shameless cribbing is in the Mail but I'm not sure it adds much
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-claims-officials-wiped-computer-files.html

 

[1%er]

It hasn't 'emerged', it was stated very clearly in the Jay Report.

Send a letter to Samantha Payne

 

[Casually Red]

A House of Commons committee is to investigate whether Tony Blair's government knew about the Rotherham child abuse scandal, as far back as 2001.

The Independent on Sunday reported an inquiry will happen after it emerged a researcher at the Home Office was conducting an investigation in 2002 into trafficking and underage prostitution by Muslim gangs in Rotherham.

But her work was shelved by the Labour-run council when she attempted to blow the whistle.

more here

The researcher's investigation came at the time the former Labour government wanted to pacify relations with the Muslim communities following the race riots of 2001.


Tensions within the cabinet were also boiling over when former foreign office minister Denis MacShane was nearly sacked by his boss, foreign secretary, Jack Straw, after calling on Muslims in the UK to choose between the "British way or the way of the terrorists".


MacShane made the extreme comments after a 24 year-old from South Yorkshire tried to bomb Israelis in a bar in Tel Aviv in 2003.

 

[Lurdan]

Think piece in the Independant
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...we-need-solutions-not-scapegoats-9701623.html

Sadly, journalists have not had in their sights the gangs of men who physically raped and mentally tortured their children as young as 11. Rather, the tabloid hue and cry has been in pursuit of a much easier quarry – the bureaucrats and functionaries whose inaction, incompetence and prejudices permitted these chilling abusers to flourish unchecked.

(...)

The Jay report bemoans an overall macho and bullying sexist culture in South Yorkshire – "not an appropriate climate in which to discuss rape and sexual exploitation" – which is far more likely to explain the lack of action than some politically correct oversensitivity to race.

(...)

It is something else that should most disturb in the Jay report, but it won't make newspaper headlines. The report reveals a safeguarding co-ordinator who had seven changes of manager in a year, management reorganisations diverting staff from contact with vulnerable children, professionals working as individuals where they should be co-ordinating with other services, and systems which need an inordinate number of meetings before approving action. It underlines the need to improve the standard of records, reports, referrals and assessments. Performance management and staff monitoring need strengthening. Better two-way communications between senior leaders and the front line are required. And Professor Jay highlights tricky decisions at a time of spending cuts. How much money should go to preventive work vs post-abuse care? Do hundreds of dramatic child abuse cases need more resources than thousands of cases of child neglect which draw public attention only when a child dies?

 

[butchersapron]

A change of management is arse-first. Anyone who read the chronology of reports actions then inspections then unplanned inspections (problem--we're working on it -def reported improvement on the proper inspections then unplanned inspection, you've done fuck all apart from the week before the planned inspection, you've probably faked notes as well) - this going on for year after year knows it's a lot deeper than that.

Management. As if the people whose culture helped produce one side of this can fix it.

 

[Lurdan]

Channel 4 News interview with Hilary Wilmer of Parents Against Child Sexual Exploitation - video here :
http://www.channel4.com/news/abuse-scandal-is-a-vastly-wider-issue-than-rotherham

There are claims that a 2002 report by a Home Office researcher into the abuse in Rotherham was never published.

"What happened to that report in Rotherham is that there was great dislike in what was being covered up."

"It actually was drawing attention to all the failings of the local council, social care, police and everyone, who were failing to deal with information that was passed to them.

"We were able to identify houses to where the young girls were taken as well as all sorts of other places."

But she explained that when the group first started to highlight these cases they "were virtually laughed at", and authorities told them that the "girls had chosen this lifestyle to feed their drug habit."

"We were told this is nonsense. These girls all come from dysfunctional families or they are in care and they've chosen to do this, why should we bother to help them?

 

[Lurdan]

Mail on Sunday :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...inly-Asian-men-targeted-Manchester-alone.html

"Police plan mass raids on sex gangs: 'Day of reckoning' for hundreds of child abusers..."
"A source said the scale of the operation 'is almost beyond comprehension'

Senior officers say it is coincidental that news of the crackdown has emerged so soon after the scandal that continues to engulf police and social services in Rotherham.

Interesting piece by Nazir Afzal of the CPS on that same page (scroll down).

The ethnicity of many of the abusers in Rotherham, Rochdale and other places is a matter of fact – they were from Pakistani or South Asian backgrounds.

I do not care where they come from as long as they are stopped and brought to justice. I told Parliament in 2012 that the ethnicity of the perpetrators was an issue, not the issue. It was not the abusers’ race that defined them, but their attitude to women and girls. They targeted girls because of their vulnerability, and failings by those who should have safeguarded them.

There is, sadly, no community where women and girls are not at risk from sexual predators. The CPS has prosecuted people from over 25 countries, excluding those from outside the EU, for sexual offences and trafficking in the past three years. Abusers are of all nationalities, ethnicities and ages, though the vast majority are white British males.

 

[Citizen66]

Ah, that old chestnut. 'local community leaders'. What elected office did these 'local community leaders' hold, or were they of the self-appointing variety?

Ones that the establishment find palatable.

 

[Belushi]

Zizek enters the fray

The left exhibited the worst of political correctness, mostly via generalisations: perpetrators were vaguely designated as “Asians”, claims were made that it was not about ethnicity and religion but about the domination of men over women, plus who are we – with our church paedophilia and Jimmy Savile – to adopt a high moral ground against a victimised minority … can one imagine a more effective way to open up the field to Ukip and other anti-immigrant populists who exploit the worries of ordinary people? Such anti-racism is effectively a barely covert racism, condescendingly treating Pakistanis as morally inferior beings who should not be held to our standards.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...hild-sex-abuse-difficult-questions?CMP=twt_fd