Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[Lurdan]

Ah, the witch hunts are on for anyone who doesn't agree with the line.

Well I'm certainly following any line about engaging with this twat any further, but I hadn't appreciated I was the subject of a witch hunt as a result. Thanks for warning me.

ETA - 'certainly not' - doh

 

[hot air baboon]

White male gangs are known as paedophile rings for some reason but they were also operating within the UK at the same time but no one is asking why the white community, or whatever, didn't act.

plenty of people have been asking exactly that .....maybe you were out of the country that fortnight when Harriet Harman and the NCCL weren't out of the papers over their involvement with Paedophile Information Exchange...?

...I take it you've never read this either ...?


The Establishment paedophile: how a monster hid in high society

Roger Took was a pillar of academia, with an enviable Chelsea address. He was also a vicious paedophile. Charlotte Metcalf shows how the veneer of social respectability can protect even the worst offenders

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...paedophile-how-a-monster-hid-in-high-society/

 

[BanCunnulingus!]

Getting back to the "cultural" thing.
Having been to a couple of Muslim countries and spending some time there, I was shocked at how they treated women, I was quite uncomfortable, but there was nothing I could do about it. Also all the men and especially the young men seemed sexually repressed, and all the experts say the more you try to suppress sexual urge, the worse you make it. I contrast the amazonian Indians culture to Muslim culture, the Amazonian Indians don't even have a word for anal sex or a way to describe, it is unknown to them, whereas Pakistan is the porn watching capital of the World. (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/12/data-shows-pakistan-googling-pornographic-material/), Everywhere where Muslims have come to live in Western countries they have had the same problem, is it genetic or caused by their repressive religion, it is obviously their religion, because they come from varied countries. Check out Bachi Bazi as well (I couldn't find the full documentary but this is a clip : ). This people come from this abusive and exploitative and sexually repressed background, this why they behave the way they do.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't bother folks.

 

[quiquaquo]

Islamophobia, homophobia, Fox News link and "Ban Cunnulingus" as a username all in one post.

Well fucking done not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the Amazonian Indians don't even have a word for anal sex or a way to describe, it is unknown to them,

 

[bmd]

plenty of people have been asking exactly that .....maybe you were out of the country that fortnight when Harriet Harman and the NCCL weren't out of the papers over their involvement with Paedophile Information Exchange...?

...I take it you've never read this either ...?


The Establishment paedophile: how a monster hid in high society

Roger Took was a pillar of academia, with an enviable Chelsea address. He was also a vicious paedophile. Charlotte Metcalf shows how the veneer of social respectability can protect even the worst offenders

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...paedophile-how-a-monster-hid-in-high-society/

Have they been asking what white communities have been doing about paedophile rings? Afaics you've posted about MPs responsibilities in supporting them, which is clearly an issue but isn't relevant to the question of why the Pakistani community is being held responsible for colluding with these paedophiles whilst the same questions aren't being asked of the communities that white paedophiles live in.

 

[hot air baboon]

...don't the eskimos have 30 different words for it though..?

 

[BanCunnulingus!]

And you have proof they do?

 

[hot air baboon]

...I'll quote from the article if its quicker...

However, what is remarkable about Took’s case is that his respectability and status blinded some who knew him to the true horror of his crimes and, to an extent, protected him from the public outrage that normally follows the exposure of such appalling acts against children.

 

[bmd]

I would really like to talk about what butchers posted about the cultural aspect of this but I feel that it will just attract so many racists that any discussion will be derailed before it gets going.

butchersapron will you please expand on your post about this? I found it immensely interesting and informative and a real insight into views I have a very tenuous grasp on.

 

[butchersapron]

I would really like to talk about what butchers posted about the cultural aspect of this but I feel that it will just attract so many racists that any discussion will be derailed before it gets going.

butchersapron will you please expand on your post about this? I found it immensely interesting and informative and a real insight into views I have a very tenuous grasp on.

Would like to mate, but out the door in a few minutes, may be gone for just a few hours but may not be back till late tonight. If i can grab a few minutes on the phone later i'll do my best...

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'll have a go.

Because there are no adequate mechanisms for collecting/reporting the figures which would produce meaningful national statistics - something which Professor Jay highlighted in interviews. The table from the CEOPs report has to be understood in that context. It was the result of a six month investigation set up after the Rochdale localised grooming case in 2010 which put this issue onto the agenda.

The whole report is here and the executive summary is here.

Quoting from the latter :

It defines 'localised grooming' :



(It's perhaps worth emphasizing that the Jay report deals with all forms of Child Sexual Exploitation not just 'localised grooming' although the latter has for obvious reasons attracted the most attention).

The report then explains - at length - how limited the data it had to work with is.

CEOPs report :






(...)





(...)



In short it makes abundantly clear that Police forces and other agencies had generally not identified this as an issue and did not keep records about it. These figures are likely - as the CEOPs report makes clear - to be skewed by the fact that the areas which do keep any kind of records are those where the recent street grooming trials have taken place.

I'm - to say the least - unimpressed that these 'statistics' are being quoted to win an argument about race without making clear how severely limited they are, arguably to the point of being meaningless, except as a starting point for further work. A more blunt way of expressing that springs to mind.

I have to say that I found some of the stuff in the report about the lack of data-sharing quite alarming. We're nearly 20 years in with multi-disciplinary and multi-agency involvement in child protection, and yet data is still being clung onto in a way that stops trends being analysed and resources properly directed.

I realise that, measured alongside the horror of the actual crimes committed against these children, my quibble is rather academic, but even so...

 

[bmd]

I have to say that I found some of the stuff in the report about the lack of data-sharing quite alarming. We're nearly 20 years in with multi-disciplinary and multi-agency involvement in child protection, and yet data is still being clung onto in a way that stops trends being analysed and resources properly directed.

I realise that, measured alongside the horror of the actual crimes committed against these children, my quibble is rather academic, but even so...

The problem afaics is a misunderstanding/lack of training around confidentiality and data sharing in relation to child protection or vulnerable people. Plus every agency had their own guidelines to this even though child protection trumps any single agency guidelines. Then there is inter agency protectiveness in so much as a lot of them are after money from the same pot and simply don't want to share information with their rivals. Finally there are the personalities involved. If someone can't be bothered to share the information then the flow stops right there.

I don't think it is academic, I think it's a fundamental flaw that is a big part of this whole problem.

 

[Lurdan]

I have to say that I found some of the stuff in the report about the lack of data-sharing quite alarming. We're nearly 20 years in with multi-disciplinary and multi-agency involvement in child protection, and yet data is still being clung onto in a way that stops trends being analysed and resources properly directed.

I realise that, measured alongside the horror of the actual crimes committed against these children, my quibble is rather academic, but even so...

Not just not sharing data - not recording it to start with. At the first level because this isn't even seen as a distinct issue, and later if it, (as in Rotherham to this day), because the Police have reasons of their own for not accepting and recording what is reported to them as crimes. I think of myself as a fairly cynical old scrote but I was somewhat surprised at the level of the criticism in the new HMIC report into Crime Data Integrity in South Yorkshire Police I quoted last night. You'd think they would be attempting a better job of arse covering.

This was particularly evident in the public protection unit, with a great deal of time spent trying to disprove the word of the victim from the outset, rather than record the crime in compliance with the NCRS and HOCR and then take the appropriate action as the investigation progressed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The problem afaics is a misunderstanding/lack of training around confidentiality and data sharing in relation to child protection or vulnerable people. Plus every agency had their own guidelines to this even though child protection trumps any single agency guidelines. Then there is inter agency protectiveness in so much as a lot of them are after money from the same pot and simply don't want to share information with their rivals. Finally there are the personalities involved. If someone can't be bothered to share the information then the flow stops right there.

I don't think it is academic, I think it's a fundamental flaw that is a big part of this whole problem.

It's also rather sobering to think of the possible true scale of this problem. Reading that report gives me the distinct impression that the harder and wider people look for this, the more such rings will be revealed. It may be little more than a question of chance that some of the rings exposed so far have involved particular identifiable ethnic groups. People will conspire with those they know, meaning that rings are likely to be self-selecting in terms of the demographics of their members. It seems likely that similar things are going on elsewhere within different groups, but we simply don't know about them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ok so is all rape motivated by hatred?

While "hatred" may be a rather naked term, rape is always rooted in contempt. How else could you violate someone, unless you felt contempt or, yes, hatred for them and/or their gender? If we step away from the fairly obvious fact that one does not victimise a friend, however convenient and/or beneficial it might be to us as an individual, what you are left with are a handful of arguments, some of which I'll itemise below:
1) The argument that the rapist "couldn't help it", that something the assault victim wore, did or said caused a compulsion in the perpetrator. In sex-offender treatment programmes, this is the first "rape myth" dealt with - it's unpacked to show the offender that it's a convenient fiction that allows them to excuse their own actions.
2) The argument of "mixed messages" with regard to body language and/or lack of sexual refusal, especially prevalent when one or both parties have their faculties impaired by drink or drugs. This is another argument dealt with succinctly in S.O.T.P.s, through reference to the fact that the perpetrator generally doesn't misread any other "message" except the one to do with fulfilling their own need to assert power.
3) The hoary argument that a woman has a reputation, so certain behaviours are to be expected from her, including "putting out" if you spend the evening buying her drinks

The three above examples are all rooted in the same set of assumptions about women - that they are and should be subject to the whims of men. If that doesn't speak of contempt, even outright hatred, I don't know what does.

 

[comrade spurski]

yes you're an idiot. in one restricted sense yes of course 'rape is rape' but in another far more accurate sense it is utterly stupid to categorise every crime designated as rape as the same exact event. pretty much the entire 3rd wave feminist movement take the fact that rape can occur even when not intended to be rape by the rapist - there are fucking thousands of memes and cartoons and videos devoted to increasing the layers of emotional complexity in entering into sexual relationships... campaigns which seek to educate people on what is and what is not rape - all based around this pretty simple and obvious tenet. the main point of this is, by doing so they are actually casting the net out wider in what can be seen as rape, increasing society's intolerance for abusive behaviour.

you, and some others, tried to take a comment from Grandma Death which in content was anti-rape and you opportunistically (or stupidly, it's increasingly hard to tell) tried to turn that into an accusation of 'rape apologism' by focussing on some essentially irrelevant wording and casting out aspersions based on that. it's a disgusting way to conduct yourself quite frankly, and especially in the context of destroying an actually important discussion which you claim to care about.

I query the concept of unintentional rape and I am an idiot ... you like I said have fucked up ideas.
I didn't call anyone a rape apologist so fuck knows what that had to do with my question.
and finally... fuck off with unintentional rape...just be honest and either apologise or say that rape aint always rape...
imo rape is always rape so there is fuck all unintentional about it.

 

[Lurdan]

When I was cutting a pasting that stuff in the CEOPs report the bit that struck me was the bit about

Where police, children’s services and voluntary sector agencies have worked together, coordinated by the LSCBs, to identify and address child sexual exploitation, a significant number of cases have come to light. However, very few case are known in areas where agencies do not routinely engage victims and collect data. Agencies which do not proactively look for child sexual exploitation will as a result fail to identify it.

because it reminded me about the stuff in the Jay report about the Risky Business project in Rotherham, and the references to the inadequate record keeping Jay found in Social Services records. It struck me as I was reading that, that if Risky Business hadn't existed a significant slice of the abuse Jay identified might have remained invisible. Project that on to the majority of places which don't have such a project and it suggests some grim conclusions.

 

[bmd]

It's also rather sobering to think of the possible true scale of this problem. Reading that report gives me the distinct impression that the harder and wider people look for this, the more such rings will be revealed. It may be little more than a question of chance that some of the rings exposed so far have involved particular identifiable ethnic groups. People will conspire with those they know, meaning that rings are likely to be self-selecting in terms of the demographics of their members. It seems likely that similar things are going on elsewhere within different groups, but we simply don't know about them.

This is another issue that this has shone a light on, that Rotherham simply can't be the only place this is happening. To think of the scale of this in those terms is truly horrific.

I was having a talk with a friend who works in a Protecting Vulnerable People unit, what the PPU is in Rotherham, the other day and she confidently told me that paedophiles simply can't operate with impunity these days. I just looked at her and said "are you serious?" She's a police officer and has been for 20 years and the police really believed that they had this problem nailed. I will be interested to hear her views on this.

The thing is, if they believe they have this under control then what does that say about crimes like domestic violence, that they acknowledge they are only beginning to understand? The police should, at the very least, protect our most vulnerable but they can't even do that. If I was working for the police today I would having a long think about continuing to do so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In this documentary it is mentioned at one point:

So your "evidence" is a single mention in a decades-old doco.
In other words, it's not actual evidence of anything except a single pervert or group of perverts having expressed a preference.

 

[hot air baboon]

Have they been asking what white communities have been doing about paedophile rings? Afaics you've posted about MPs responsibilities in supporting them, which is clearly an issue but isn't relevant to the question of why the Pakistani community is being held responsible for colluding with these paedophiles whilst the same questions aren't being asked of the communities that white paedophiles live in.

...perhaps yopu could explain exactly why you seem to have this big and apparently very uncomfortable bug up your rear end at the thought of the Pakistani community being asked to dob in evil scumbags...isn't that what any decent member of society would WANT to do....why is asking any citizen or group of citizens to perform that duty such a terrible unjust imposition.....can you point to any member of the Pakistani community who has objected to that duty being asked of them...?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

When I was cutting a pasting that stuff in the CEOPs report the bit that struck me was the bit about

because it reminded me about the stuff in the Jay report about the Risky Business project in Rotherham, and the references to the inadequate record keeping Jay found in Social Services records. It struck me as I was reading that, that if Risky Business hadn't existed a significant slice of the abuse Jay identified might have remained invisible. Project that on to the majority of places which don't have such a project and it suggests some grim conclusions.

Yes, that was the bit that struck me too. Fucking grim conclusions.

 

[bmd]

...perhaps yopu could explain exactly why you seem to have this big and apparently very uncomfprtable bug up your rear end at the thought of the Pakisatni community being asked to dob in evil scumbags...isn't that what any decent member of society would WANT to do....why is asking any citizen or group of citizens to perform that duty such a terrible unjust imposition.....can you point to any member of the Pakisatni community who has objected to that duty beng asked of them...?

The problem I have is that you said the community was colluding with these paedophiles. Now you're shifting the goal posts and saying that I have a problem with the Pakistani community being expected to report these criminals to the police. But anyway, I'll address that. Have you read the bit in the report where it says a girl was doused in petrol so that her sister would do what these men wanted?

If they had doused your sibling in petrol then held a lighter to them, would you tell them to go fuck themselves because you're going to report them anyway? You're 12 btw.

 

[BanCunnulingus!]

So your "evidence" is a single mention in a decades-old doco.
In other words, it's not actual evidence of anything except a single pervert or group of perverts having expressed a preference.

Yes, that's my evidence. Got any to contradict it?

 

[Lurdan]

Well if pedophiles really do have more genes in common with crabs than with humans perhaps they are genetically hard wired to respond to that combination of blonde hair and blue eyes. Perhaps it reminds them of little mermaids. Wasn't there a Disney documentary aboiut that ?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Children have been allowed out of children's homes (for how long,who knows?) because carers are faced with putting choke holds on these children who know the law but not their own minds.
I've seen this stuff for years now, for instance police picking up kids late at night, taking them back, only to see them out again the same night(exploited in too many ways to mention) .
The whole of child welfare is not fit for purpose and regrettably never has been.
While our politician's are allowed outside interests, then we cannot trust them to do an exclusive job imho.
How long are we going to have these expensive and useless inquiries?
Just look at our country, the west in general, it's all broken. Can we wake up now?

I find this confusing as well. If as a parent you were to stop your kids walking the street late at night this would be seen as good parenting, yet the law opens up kids to be very vulnerable.

 

[hot air baboon]

.....plenty of people in Rotherham did know this was going on.....looking at a crime spanning 16 yrs and hundreds of victims the calls are obviously aimed at friends, aquaintences and family members of people involved who know or suspect something was ( ....& undoubtedly still is.... ) happening, not the actual victims as I'm sure you realise perfectly well...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

.....plenty of people in Rotherham did know this was going on.....looking at a crime spanning 16 yrs and hundreds of victims the calls are obviously aimed at friends, aquaintences and family members of people involved who know or suspect something was ( ....& undoubtedly still is.... ) happening, not the actual victims as I'm sure you realise perfectly well...

You're slipping into vague generalisations now. You don't know any more than anybody else who knew what.

 

[Citizen66]

...perhaps yopu could explain exactly why you seem to have this big and apparently very uncomfortable bug up your rear end at the thought of the Pakistani community being asked to dob in evil scumbags...isn't that what any decent member of society would WANT to do....why is asking any citizen or group of citizens to perform that duty such a terrible unjust imposition.....can you point to any member of the Pakistani community who has objected to that duty being asked of them...?

Plenty of people at the BBC knew or suspected Savile's misdeeds but I don't see calls for the entire BBC to be held accountable for his actions.

Wrt the 'Pakistani community' none of us know if anyone else knew or not. Stop making stuff up.