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Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

Well, what a fucking shame. butchersapron (sorry for tagging but it seems rude not to these days) post yesterday on race and culture was excellent, real clarity of thinking there, really useful. This is such an important issue with so much to think about I can't believe there's been a derail like this. I'm really fucking angry about it.

I'd like it if we can discuss rape without calling people rape apologists. It's not helpful. Calling people pieces of shit isn't helpful either. It's good to challenge people without using these terms. The use of these terms is not evidence of a more radical position.
 
Earendel said:
You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser. You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.
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Poser? For disagreeing with you?
You are so fucking unbelievably disingenuous in what you aregue.
The problem for you and others arguing your point of view is not child abuse, the lack of action by those entrusted to protect vulnerable children and the buck passing being employed by those in power...your collective problem is "white" girls being being target by 6 pakistani men (you have referred to "white" girls several times)... from which you have made all sorts of leaps to make it a fact that there is a problem in the pakistani community as they are more predisposed to this sort of crime. No facts are used, just "I read it so its true" logic is used. I have read lots but it dont make it a fact. There's a book called the bell curve from the mid 1990s which is supposed to be an academic book ... it has been quoted thousandsof times to justify why black men are more likely to be criminals due to genetics...that book is beyond scientifically flawed yet people quoted it like it was a fact.
This is what people have done here. The figures available picked and chose what counted as men grooming children for sex...and low and behold for pakistani men to be disproportionately more likely to commit this crime. Yet when child sexual abuse convictions and investigations take place they find pakistani men are no more likely to be involved than white men.
Inconvenient truths such as groups of white men abusing and grooming children not being talked about in terms of their race are dismissed by you and your ilk as "being different because...it isn't the same" points to you having a need for this case to be seen a race issue and if anyone disagree you insult them and then play the pc gone mad card and finally claim you are bullied and we dont care about white kids.
Your arguments on this thread are racist pure and simple. Stop whining at people who disagree with your view.
Everyone should care about children being abused by adults...not about white children being abused by pakistani men...because of obvious reasons.
ALL CHILDREN DESERVE PROTECTION
ALL ABUSERS MUST BE STOPPED AND CAUGHT
On top of this you and others have come across like the other cases mentioned, like the catholic priests, politicians, celebrities are lesser crimes
All of the above makes me mistrust your motives
 
butchersapron said:
There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat multiplicity of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing that culture and race are actually now one and the same. So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that:

highlighted that Asian girls were being sexually exploited where authorities were failing to identify or support them. They were most vulnerable to men from their own communities who manipulated cultural norms to prevent them from reporting their abuse.

actually helps disentangle this race/culture nonsense as it shows that a) they believe that there does exist cultural norms among certain (asian) communities that do help paedos in their activity and b) that these norms are also internally directed - that asian children are also victims - thus removing the race angle and properly replacing it with the culture angle.

And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani people, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be to racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.

Many of those who are arguing this had nothing to do with race are doing so with the best of intentions but doing so on dodgy grounds that assume when the racial aspect is properly dispensed with then the cultural aspect must necessarily go too - as race = culture. That's worrying and suggests that the far-right and racists have won a large part of their battle.

(I really am going to try and keep quiet until i've finished the report now)
Click to expand...

So can we start again from here?
 
A brief piece from an academic about Rotherham, and other such cases of CSE in working class communities, which does attempt to frame within a social/cultural context without resorting to race:-

it is far from clear that either the report’s author or the media framing of the story has got to the heart of the problem. The inquiry was too limited to go thoroughly into the social context within which these events occurred. Consequently, it left open the opportunity for yet another search for professional scapegoats. The situations it describes are not new, are not particularly associated with racism or political correctness, and raise serious questions about the nature of some traditional working class communities and their representatives.

The real challenge of Rotherham, then, is not that of sending a few hapless local councillors or social service managers to the guillotine. It is to think about what would bring cultural change to those poor areas that have been left behind by modernization. They exist everywhere and are neglected everywhere, except when it is convenient to demonize them for their backwardness or to mobilize them for some atavistic political agenda. Rotherham is not about service failures but about what sort of a nation we want to live in – and how we engage every citizen with that vision.
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brogdale said:
A brief piece from an academic about Rotherham, and other such cases of CSE in working class communities, which does attempt to frame within a social/cultural context without resorting to race:-
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This is so true. Left behind by modernisation. On my estate we have flowers and wifi and a Subway, but nothing in the way of actually looking at the people there and thinking about how it can be different, real change, for the generations down the line. I can see the grand kids of the kids now being in exactly the same place, doing the same things, with no prospects.
 
bmd said:
So can we start again from here?
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Agree totally with the apron on this one.

I would add that perhaps some of the conflation between race and culture may come from insisting that race is a category whose interpretation is shaped by culture. One obvious example would be how, in a majority-white place such as the UK, a person with one black parent and one white parent may be widely considered 'black' by the wider population, whereas the same person in a majority-black place such as Angola may be widely considered 'white'. Racial categories contain lots of unconsciously held assumptions that are very much culturally dependent. But that does not in any way mean that it is a concept referring to culture.

The racists on here last night typified the confusion on this, insisting variously on 'white' or 'indigenous' as a racial category to which they nailed their allegiance, but in order for that allegiance to have any meaning, they had to tag cultural baggage onto it, at which point their categories immediately became anachronistic and internally incoherent.
 
Dr_Herbzost: 13366858 said:
My 'ex' brother (I hate the cunt) used to work for the CPS. He used to tell me about his work, and told me that over 90% of the sexual offense cases he was involved in (both female and male rape) involved members of the Pakistani community.

I have no official figures for this but as much as I hate the cunt, I have no reason to believe he was lying.
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Thats strange cos I knew this bloke, fucking hated him, and he said 90% of everything you said was a complete lie made up cos you were a racist ..... I have no proof to back this up but, as much as I hated him, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

There....see how easy it is to write bollocks.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Agree totally with the apron on this one.

I would add that perhaps some of the conflation between race and culture may come from insisting that race is a category whose interpretation is shaped by culture. One obvious example would be how, in a majority-white place such as the UK, a person with one black parent and one white parent may be widely considered 'black' by the wider population, whereas the same person in a majority-black place such as Angola may be widely considered 'white'. Racial categories contain lots of unconsciously held assumptions that are very much culturally dependent. But that does not in any way mean that it is a concept referring to culture.

The racists on here last night typified the confusion on this, insisting variously on 'white' or 'indigenous' as a racial category to which they nailed their allegiance, but in order for that allegiance to have any meaning, they had to tag cultural baggage onto it, at which point their categories immediately became anachronistic and internally incoherent.
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Yes! What strikes me about the racists pov is that it simply comes down to "I want everyone around me to be white." There is nothing more to their argument than that. Our country is everyone in it, whether they have just arrived, moved here a generation ago or can trace their heritage back to the Stone Age.

i also think there is a frustration for racists in this country that they cannot define their culture in an exclusively British way, define it so as to exclude the people they are racist against.
 
bmd said:
i also think there is a frustration for racists in this country that they cannot define their culture in an exclusively British way, define it so as to exclude the people they are racist against.
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Yep, they try to construct a very silly, ahistorical and entirely meaningless category 'indigenous', which simply ignores the history of the country from around 1945 backwards.

Thing is, butchersapron was right last night. They've already lost this one. They're stuck back in the 1960s with Enoch Powell. Even then they were already losing - they were always losing - but now they've lost.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Agree totally with the apron on this one.

I would add that perhaps some of the conflation between race and culture may come from insisting that race is a category whose interpretation is shaped by culture. One obvious example would be how, in a majority-white place such as the UK, a person with one black parent and one white parent may be widely considered 'black' by the wider population, whereas the same person in a majority-black place such as Angola may be widely considered 'white'. Racial categories contain lots of unconsciously held assumptions that are very much culturally dependent. But that does not in any way mean that it is a concept referring to culture.

The racists on here last night typified the confusion on this, insisting variously on 'white' or 'indigenous' as a racial category to which they nailed their allegiance, but in order for that allegiance to have any meaning, they had to tag cultural baggage onto it, at which point their categories immediately became anachronistic and internally incoherent.
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A supervisor of mine who was in Liberia in the 60s told me she would regularly meet African-Americans who had come over to West Africa as a solidarity thing, and were puzzled to be referred to by locals with a term that meant, basically, "foreigner" and was applied to white and black foreigners alike.
 
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/police-hid-the-truth-about-abuse-1-6811668

South Yorkshire Police ‘hid’ the ‘true extent’ of serious crime and left vulnerable victims ‘unprotected or at risk’ a damning watchdog report has found – just days after the Rotherham sex abuse scandal was made public.



Officers showed an ‘unacceptable’ disregard for victims, some of whom included vulnerable children who had suffered violence and sexual assault, an investigation by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has found.

Police spent ‘a great deal of time’ trying to ‘disprove’ the most vulnerable victims of crime and often failed to record crimes relating to vulnerable people, the report said.

The revelations come just days after it emerged at least 1,400 children in Rotherham were subjected to ‘appalling’ abuse between 1997 and 2013.

The HMIC report into the force’s ‘crime reporting integrity’ found almost a quarter of the crimes it examined, which should have been recorded, were not.

Of the 152 cases HMIC looked at from November 2012 to October 2013, 117 were found to be crimes that should have been recorded, yet only 89 were.

Of 53 reports referred from ‘other agencies’ such as social services, 34 crimes should have been recorded but only 18 had been, meaning nearly half were being effectively ignored.

The report said: “This level of under-recorded crime is a significant cause of concern and a matter of material and urgent importance, particularly as some of these relate to violence and sexual assault against vulnerable children."
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Beating up miners, Hillsborough, hitting and arresting disabled pensioners and covering up systematic rape of children. The SYP.
 
and the EDL are commemorating the victims by turning up and getting pissed. fucken vultures along with NF, BF and eejit infidullards. rothers.jpg
 
J Ed said:
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/police-hid-the-truth-about-abuse-1-6811668

Beating up miners, Hillsborough, hitting and arresting disabled pensioners and covering up systematic rape of children. The SYP.
Click to expand...

Very accurate 'mission statement'.

Their own attempt...
Effective procurement supports South Yorkshire Police in achieving its policy aims and objectives and helps to deliver high quality services, which will meet the current and future needs of local people based on value for money.

The role of effective procurement is crucial in achieving South Yorkshire Police's mission statement:-

"To help make South Yorkshire a safer and more just society".

South Yorkshire Police strives to ensure that its work is characterised by honesty, equality, integrity and transparency.
Click to expand...
 
Red Cat said:
Well, what a fucking shame. butchersapron (sorry for tagging but it seems rude not to these days) post yesterday on race and culture was excellent, real clarity of thinking there, really useful. This is such an important issue with so much to think about I can't believe there's been a derail like this. I'm really fucking angry about it.
Click to expand...

I agree. I was ruminating over one paragraph in butchersapron's post

butchersapron said:
And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani people, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be to racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.
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I get mildly annoyed about the idea expressed in some posts in this thread (not butchersaprons I should say) that there is some direct transmission belt from some (generally caricatured) notion of 'traditional' Pakistani culture and the actions of rapist criminals in the UK today. If organised child abuse is some logical/inevitable outcome of this cultural background how come it didn't manifest itself in the older generations in Asian communities? Misogynist attitudes in any community or family clearly feed into (and off) misogynist actions but they don't cause them. Most people aren't helpless slaves to their prejudices - in fact their prejudices are generally just the ways they have learned to/choose to talk about their misogynist behaviour.

I'm a little reluctant to pontificate in this area (he said) but it seems to me that underlying a lot of this is a manifestation of second-generation issues. It's an (unacceptable and unforgiveable) response to being half-in and half-out of two communities and being at home in neither. For some people that takes the form of clinging to certainties and to rigid self-created identities - extreme machismo, inflexible religious certainties are examples. If I'm right about that it follows that domestic tyranny (for example) amongst this 'second-generation' isn't expressing 'traditional values' at all - it's expressing a reaction directly against them and at the same time against the loss of certainties and clearly defined status which went with them.

These sorts of issues and behaviours are scarcely unique to Asian communities or indeed to immigrant communities. There are clear parallels in my mind with the cuntish behaviour and attitudes of some of the Angry Young Men generation of the 1950s (John Osborne's 'Jimmy Porter' is a repellent poster boy) who were halfway in and halfway out of two different class-communities.

hmm, well I could blather on about that but maybe it would be better to let people tell me where I'm talking bollocks :)

The other thing that pisses me off is the stream of people demanding that we ACkNOWLEDGE these people are Pakistani (as if there was any fucking secret about it) while deliberately refusing to acknowledge that they are criminals. It's hardly as if the concept of groups from immigrant communities networking together into criminal sub-cultures is a novel one. Are yardies or triads expressing 'traditional values' ? Criminal sub-cultures develop and express their own values and codes.And while some will cloak themselves in notions of tradition, (like the Mafia family which set up an anti-defamation organization to counter 'slander' against Italians), all the better to prey on their own community, this is transparent bullshit. The values they are 'expressing' are those of their criminal culture.

Which is one of the unforgiveable things about what has happened in Rotherham. This activity was allowed to go unchecked for so long that it clearly developed into a semi-organized and self-reinforcing criminal sub-culture. I quoted the section of the Jay report about the role of taxi drivers and firms a few pages back. That sort of criminal networking doesn't spring up overnight.
 
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What strikes me about the police's part in this is that their culture was the barrier to protection and justice for these people. Individually the police attitudes towards females meant they didn't see them as victims of crime but as asking for it. The fact that it's a male culture reinforced these attitudes. Even the class difference between the police and these people played a part. The middle class police, paid a wage that means they can afford to live in suburbia disconnected them from these working class people. And the clear contempt they had for anyone unlike them and the culture of covering up any failures all worked together to leave these people at the mercy of the paedophiles.

When I think of it like that and then think of Muslim/Pakistani women and girls being the most targeted I don't see them being protected any time soon. I don't think this will make any difference to their lives at all.
 
Das Uberdog said:
because i didn't say that no-one else rapes or grooms, that's how you know. and as for the media's emphasis on 'race', that's obvious. my emphasis was on a cultural issue.



no that is not an inevitable conclusion, so long as you are capable of keeping at least two parallel running thoughts in your head at one time. black people are, statistically, disproportionately represented amongst reported crimes - the black population is also more impoverished. we know that poverty impacts upon certain kinds of criminality, and the issue is clearly one of class rather than genetics.

your assumption seems to be that we have to cover over accurate social observations if they stray onto arenas of ethnicity or race because either you yourself are unable to take your conclusions in any direction other than a racist direction, or because you think that the rest of society is incapable of it. that's not true though in my experience, people are well capable of coping with a slightly more complicated assessment of the situation which goes beyond just aesthetically associating different ethnicities with different perceived activities. that is, so long as people are willing to have out the proper argument rather than just try and hush it under the carpet.
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Utter rubbish. So how about Sidney Cooke? Would you say that grooming is typical of White English culture?
 
According to local radio The 'young british muslims' are having an 'open and frank' public meeting today at 4.30 at the Unity Centre Rotherham, all are welcome and its expected to be very robust
 
One more thing. While people are focussing on the 'race'/culture of these offenders, you've diverted your gaze from the high profile paedophiles (who aren't of Pakistani origin). Well done, guys.
 
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