Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[Das Uberdog]

I'm - to say the least - unimpressed that these 'statistics' are being quoted to win an argument about race without making clear how severely limited they are, arguably to the point of being meaningless, except as a starting point for further work. A more blunt way of expressing that springs to mind.

no-one is trying to 'win an argument about race' here other than you. fair enough to question the comprehensiveness of the CEOP report but the Times report still stands; that in the capacity of 'organised gangs' perpetrating the grooming since 1997 53 of 56 convictions have been non-white, of which 50 were Muslim and the vast majority of those Pakistani.

i'm not making any 'racial' extrapolations from that, just noting a severe trend in regards to a specific crime which you'd be criminally negligent to to take account of. the report from Rotheram explicitly argues the same, as does the Nazir Afzal quote just posted by hot air baboon above.

 

[butchersapron]

Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak
S Yorkshire Police Officer Daniel Cookson, previously based in Rotherham, charged with causing 15-year-old girl to engage in sexual activity

 

[Ole]

And where is race mentioned...?

Nowhere, because race was not an issue.

It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.

The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.

 

[Lurdan]

fair enough to question the comprehensiveness of the CEOP report

I'm not questioning it - I'm quoting it. The reservations about the adequacy of the data are theirs.

 

[Pickman's model]

It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.

it's a very vague statement - "it is an issue in some form". what form do you mean?

 

[Ole]

it's a very vague statement - "it is an issue in some form". what form do you mean?

The following sentence after that.

 

[Pickman's model]

The following sentence after that.

there is no following sentence after that. it's the end of a paragraph.

 

[comrade spurski]

Nowhere, because race was not an issue.

It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.

The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.

Why is it an issue in the rotherham case but not in the celeb cases...cos you and others say so?
Its you that decides to mention race when it suits not.me...ALL THE CELEBS WERE WHITE SO WHY IS IT IRRELEVANT WHEN ITS RELEVANT IN THIS CASE.?
it is the complete inability to answer this without spouting shit stats which are not backed up in any way which is a fucking joke...lots of this reads like this is worse cos the perpetrators are pakistanis and that is sick. Child abuse is abhorrent regardless of the colour of anyone involved...so why yhe fuck is race an issue in your mind?

 

[hot air baboon]

...there's no inability to answer it at all...the answer is staring anyone in the face who isn't blinkered .....that the race of the perpetrators is the factor that is clearly implicated as *one* of the factors - desspite whatever the whitewash-merchants on here are desparate to prove - that allowed these offences to go unpunished for so long in so many places up and down the county....

....we went over all this before over Savile.....Savile being a catholic - not "relevant".......Catholic Priests all over the Western World implicated in child abuse and church authorities ignoring it to cover their arses : therefore catholic = "relevant".......

..do we really need to rehash the details of all the other "Rotherhams" that have crawled out of the woodwork to make the point that there is something seriously amiss going on in this country.....

 

[comrade spurski]

Saville was white...or am I white washing that?
You decide his religion makes his colour irrelevant. ..while deciding it is relevant in this case...convenient for you point of view but completely worthless as is your argument

 

[bmd]

...there's no inability to answer it at all...the answer is staring anyone in the face who isn't blinkered .....that the race of the perpetrators is the factor that is clearly implicated as *one* of the factors - desspite whatever the whitewash-merchants on here are desparate to prove - that allowed these offences to go unpunished for so long in so many places up and down the county....

....we went over all this before over Savile.....Savile being a catholic - not "relevant".......Catholic Priests all over the Western World implicated in child abuse and church authorities ignoring it to cover their arses : therefore catholic = "relevant".......

..do we really need to rehash the details of all the other "Rotherhams" that have crawled out of the woodwork to make the point that there is something seriously amiss going on in this country.....

I think race comes into it when you look at how some institutions were wary of being branded as racist and that may have impacted on the way they approached their investigations. However, I think culture is the bigger issue here for the abused and the abusers, white or otherwise.

 

[Citizen66]

...there's no inability to answer it at all...the answer is staring anyone in the face who isn't blinkered .....that the race of the perpetrators is the factor that is clearly implicated as *one* of the factors - desspite whatever the whitewash-merchants on here are desparate to prove - that allowed these offences to go unpunished for so long in so many places up and down the county....

....we went over all this before over Savile.....Savile being a catholic - not "relevant".......Catholic Priests all over the Western World implicated in child abuse and church authorities ignoring it to cover their arses : therefore catholic = "relevant".......

..do we really need to rehash the details of all the other "Rotherhams" that have crawled out of the woodwork to make the point that there is something seriously amiss going on in this country.....

Are you fucking thick?

Of course the people concerned are going to bleat about political correctness instead of admitting the uncomfortable truth that they didn't lift a finger because vulnerable young girls aren't high up on their list of priorities and are probably slags who brought it on themselves anyway.

Race is smoke and fucking mirrors. What do Savile and these fuckers have in common? They're male sexual predators who prey on young girls from childrens homes. Are Pakistani rapists worse than white celebrity ones or something?

 

[Citizen66]

Ok so is all rape motivated by hatred?

I'd say misogyny features in all offending of that nature yes.

 

[comrade spurski]

I think race comes into it when you look at how some institutions were wary of being branded as racist and that may have impacted on the way they approached their investigations. However, I think culture is the bigger issue here for the abused and the abusers, white or otherwise.

Since when did the police care about being perceived racist?
that was an excuse to justify their could give a fuck attitude to the children being abused imo

 

[Ole]

there is no following sentence after that. it's the end of a paragraph.

Fuck are you on about? Here's the sentence that follows the one you quoted.

"That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned."

That's the certain role that the issue of race plays in this, that it doesn't with Savile et al.

Why is it an issue in the rotherham case but not in the celeb cases...cos you and others say so?
Its you that decides to mention race when it suits not.me...ALL THE CELEBS WERE WHITE SO WHY IS IT IRRELEVANT WHEN ITS RELEVANT IN THIS CASE.?
it is the complete inability to answer this without spouting shit stats which are not backed up in any way which is a fucking joke...lots of this reads like this is worse cos the perpetrators are pakistanis and that is sick. Child abuse is abhorrent regardless of the colour of anyone involved...so why yhe fuck is race an issue in your mind?

The problem is that you can't fucking read. I said why it's an issue here and not there. bmd just reiterated the point.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Are Pakistani rapists worse than white celebrity ones or something?

no, and no-one has said that. but if there is something embedded in the cultural institutions of the Pakistani community which has played a role in aiding the ability of several of these grooming gangs to go about their business, then there is an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed. just like when Catholic priests were using the cover of the church to protect themselves from repercussions from their abuse, it was quite correctly seen by pretty much everybody as an institutional problem within the Catholic church which needed to be remedied by reforms to that organisations own particular inner workings. with Saville and the BBC, it was the institutions of the BBC, Saville's own wealth and power and corruption of authorities which allowed him to do what he did - and quite rightly, everybody expected change from within the BBC, the Police, etc.

why do you keep insisting that by referring to cultural institutions people are referring to racial traits?

 

[hot air baboon]

...yes....people don't get accused of being "culturalist" so I'm using the term in that sense....and would it really make any one feel any better if all the media stories ripping Savile's reputation to shreds had all been printed-up as "..white DJ Jimmy Savile was a serial nonce and necrophiliac...."

.....this thread seems to be running on fumes now....the circus has moved on somewhere else and I may follow them....

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck are you on about? Here's the sentence that follows the one you quoted.

"That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned."

That's the certain role that the issue of race plays in this, that it doesn't with Savile et al.


The problem is that you can't fucking read. I said why it's an issue here and not there. bmd just reiterated the point.

so you say form but you mean role.

 

[Citizen66]

<snip> but if there is something embedded in the cultural institutions of the Pakistani community which has played a role in aiding the ability of several of these grooming gangs to go about their business, then there is an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed.<snip>

But rape isn't exclusive to those communities, is it? So why do we need to understand "an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed" but not in wider society? Put the focus on Pakistani communities but give everyone else a clean bill of health? There-in lies your racism.

 

[comrade spurski]

The problem is that you can't fucking read. I said why it's an issue here and not there. bmd just reiterated the point.[/QUOTE]

The problem clearly is not caused by my inability to read.
You said race was not an issue...your very next sentence said..."

It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.

The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.

so how can race not be an issue and also be an issue in the rotherham case?

if you think that race does not play a role in the celebrity cases, politician cases and the catholic church cases but does in this case then you are at best being a complete hypocrite.

 

[Lurdan]

no, and no-one has said that. but if there is something embedded in the cultural institutions of the Pakistani community which has played a role in aiding the ability of several of these grooming gangs to go about their business, then there is an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed. just like when Catholic priests were using the cover of the church to protect themselves from repercussions from their abuse, it was quite correctly seen by pretty much everybody as an institutional problem within the Catholic church which needed to be remedied by reforms to that organisations own particular inner workings. with Saville and the BBC, it was the institutions of the BBC, Saville's own wealth and power and corruption of authorities which allowed him to do what he did - and quite rightly, everybody expected change from within the BBC, the Police, etc.

why do you keep insisting that by referring to cultural institutions people are referring to racial traits?

So it's a fair cop guv but societies to blame ?

I don't disagree that if an institution or a culture breeds abuse or criminality it needs to be addressed but are you seriously suggesting that these are all just political problems which can be solved by reforming institutions ? Are you suggesting that it's the institutions which cause or facilitate or fail to deal with criminality which are the real problem ? And in the case of the Pakistani criminals we're talking about here I'll ask what I asked before - why are you assuming that it's their Pakistani cultural background that needs to be addressed rather than the criminal culture they are members of ?

 

[bmd]

Since when did the police care about being perceived racist?
that was an excuse to justify their could give a fuck attitude to the children being abused imo

I think the cohesion and support that the Pakistani community give each other means that the police can't bully them as much as, say, Afro caribbeans. But I agree, I was thinking more of the council.

 

[Citizen66]

So it's a fair cop guv but societies to blame ?

I don't disagree that if an institution or a culture breeds abuse or criminality it needs to be addressed but are you seriously suggesting that these are all just political problems which can be solved by reforming institutions ? Are you suggesting that it's the institutions which cause or facilitate or fail to deal with criminality which are the real problem ? And in the case of the Pakistani criminals we're talking about here I'll ask what I asked before - why are you assuming that it's their Pakistani cultural background that needs to be addressed rather than the criminal culture they are members of ?

Or their gender. Or how British society ignores young girls when they make complaints of this nature. Why isn't British society under the microscope? We're back to 'ethnic communities not doing enough' again aren't we.

 

[comrade spurski]

I think the cohesion and support that the Pakistani community give each other means that the police can't bully them as much as, say, Afro caribbeans. But I agree, I was thinking more of the council.

From personal experience of working and living in woolwich and plumstead which has a large asian population including pakistanis and being a union rep the local council (greenwich...run by labour) could not give a shit about mistreating any one asian or about being accused of being racistand that experience has been repeated up and down the country with black and asian staff being appallingly treated by councils.
But I get the point youre making...I just think it is an absolute lie on their part to try and shift blame and justify the unjustifiable

 

[Das Uberdog]

But rape isn't exclusive to those communities, is it? So why do we need to understand "an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed" but not in wider society? Put the focus on Pakistani communities but give everyone else a clean bill of health? There-in lies your racism.

when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.

when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.

 

[Citizen66]

when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.

when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.

I can take that point. The point I'm trying to make is that the same thing isn't said about any other crime relating to any other communities*. This appears to be a special case. And I can't help but feel it ties in nicely with the constant Muslim bashing in the right wing press.

*Apart from travellers. The moneyed class are never asked to search their consciences for the havoc they bring on all.

 

[Lurdan]

I think the cohesion and support that the Pakistani community give each other means that the police can't bully them as much as, say, Afro caribbeans. But I agree, I was thinking more of the council.

I think I understand what you mean but it's important not to romanticize this. Here in Tower Hamlets the Bangladeshi community is very cohesive and politically organized but it contains the same hierarchies of wealth, status, gender etc. as British society in general and in some ways these hierarchies can be even more constraining. For the much smaller ethnic communities it's very different.

 

[Citizen66]

Muslim bashing. Inept social workers. Political correctness to blame. It's a Daily Mail wet dream.

 

[DotCommunist]

Muslim bashing. Inept social workers. Political correctness to blame. It's a Daily Mail wet dream.

and the failure/complicity of SYP goes virtually unmentioned in the rush to decry those peedo muzzies and the PC brigade

 

[butchersapron]

Concentrate on them then.