Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[Grandma Death]

oh dear

Oh dear what?

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh dear what?

oh dear how could you write that and think anyone would take you seriously?

 

[Pickman's model]

I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this.

so racists who kill people can, iyo, only be motivated by racism if all racists do that sort of thing. oh dear oh dear oh dear

 

[Citizen66]

Misogyny manifests itself in different ways. There isn't a one size fits all definition.

 

[Grandma Death]

oh dear how could you write that and think anyone would take you seriously?

'Anyone' who made you the spokesman for Urban?

I accept there exists misogynistic attitudes in the Pakistani community but not all misogynists go on to commit offences like gang grooming. It really is quite simple-not sure which part you're struggling with.

But im sure you'll pick through my posts-as you often do on the occasions I post here-carry on mate. Im sure you will.

 

[Pickman's model]

'Anyone' who made you the spokesman for Urban?

I accept there exists misogynistic attitudes in the Pakistani community but not all misogynists go on to commit offences like gang grooming. It really is quite simple-not sure which part you're struggling with.

But im sure you'll pick through my posts-as you often do on the occasions I post here-carry on mate. Im sure you will.

it's perfectly simple. some people's beliefs motivate them to do things others with similar beliefs won't or don't. so someone can express their misogyny solely through sexist language while someone else who is misogynistic may beat or sexually assault women. saying that 'i don't think they did it because of x because not everyone who believes in x does that' is a fallacious argument and does not present you in a good light. if you can't see that then you're denser than i thought.

e2a: some people take their beliefs further than others, although they may be motivated by the same thing. eg the person who only puts up stickers for their group while other people go on demonstrations.

 

[Grandma Death]

it's perfectly simple. some people's beliefs motivate them to do things others with similar beliefs won't or don't. so someone can express their misogyny solely through sexist language while someone else who is misogynistic may beat or sexually assault women. saying that 'i don't think they did it because of x because not everyone who believes in x does that' is a fallacious argument and does not present you in a good light. if you can't see that then you're denser than i thought.

But its a fact. Not all racists kill people. Not all terrorists are muslims. Not all coppers are corrupt. etc etc

Thanks for the dense label-I feel all warm now. Now please go away. As always when I post and you home in on me I find it very tedious

 

[Pickman's model]

But its a fact. Not all racists kill people. Not all terrorists are muslims. Not all coppers are corrupt. etc etc

Thanks for the dense label-I feel all warm now. Now please go away. As always when I post and you home in on me I find it very tedious

it's only tedious because you make it so. if you didn't need these things spelt out in words of one syllable then it might not be so dull.

 

[Citizen66]

But its a fact. Not all racists kill people. Not all terrorists are muslims. Not all coppers are corrupt. etc etc

I agree. Let's not tar the nice misogynists with the same brush.

 

[Grandma Death]

it's only tedious because you make it so. if you didn't need these things spelt out in words of one syllable then it might not be so dull.

Youre till hurting over the stats on false allegations of rape arent you. You looked a complete and utter tool then and you do now. But carry on mate.

 

[Grandma Death]

I agree. Let's not tar the nice misogynists with the same brush.

No lets not suggest the presence of misogynistic attitudes leads to gang rape.

 

[Pickman's model]

Youre till hurting over the stats on false allegations of rape arent you. You looked a complete and utter tool then and you do now. But carry on mate.

no, i'm not "till hurting". i'm not bringing up an old beef with you. i raise this point because you've posted something unbelievably stupid and you don't seem to realise how daft it is.

 

[Red Cat]

Well we can split hairs and start talking about what constitutes a 'lot'-but across the range of attitudes only a minority of people holding such views will go on to commit offences of the type quoted in my post.

I'm not sure why you're surprised that hatred towards women frequently expresses itself in abusive and violent actions towards women.

 

[Pickman's model]

No lets not suggest the presence of misogynistic attitudes leads to gang rape.

oh dear oh dear. you're all over the fucking shop on this one.

 

[Citizen66]

No lets not suggest the presence of misogynistic attitudes leads to gang rape.

Are you suggesting some rapists arent misogynists?

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you suggesting some rapists arent misogynists?

he believes they're not motivated by misogyny. see my post 423.

 

[comrade spurski]

If you only consider certain types of offenders to constitute a "gang" but not others then the stats can easily be manipulated and are thereby flawed.
No one talks about a "gang" of white men within show business grooming children...they speak of individual "perverts" ... this stat that is not open to manipulation shows and always has shown that child abusers are roughly the same percentage as their race within society. I find it amazing that you can not or will not see this very simple fact.
The manipulation of crime stats to suit racism is not new...in the 1970s "mugging" as a term was invented and a disproportionate number of afro carribean young men were charged with it while young white men were charged with robbery...this was to justify the abuse of black young men via the sus laws and stop and search procedures.
In the 1990s again it was claimed that young black men made up a hugely disproportionate number of muggers ... again white young men who committed the same crimes were charged with different crimes.
Very powerful organistions such as the police and councils pretend to be intimidated by anti racists, in order to wriggle out of their incompetence and inaction in this abuse issue and you and others want to discuss how pakistani men are more likely to be child abusers? Think about it...seriously, think

.

Can you explain why exactly those stats are flawed?

 

[Citizen66]

he believes they're not motivated by misogyny. see my post 423.

It's a brutal violation asserting male power over women. How could it not be motivated by hatred?

 

[Pickman's model]

If you only consider certain types of offenders to constitute a "gang" but not others then the stats can easily be manipulated and are thereby flawed.
No one talks about a "gang" of white men within show business grooming children...they speak of individual "perverts" ... this stat that is not open to manipulation shows and always has shown that child abusers are roughly the same percentage as their race within society. I find it amazing that you can not or will not see this very simple fact.
The manipulation of crime stats to suit racism is not new...in the 1970s "mugging" as a term was invented and a disproportionate number of afro carribean young men were charged with it while young white men were charged with robbery...this was to justify the abuse of black young men via the sus laws and stop and search procedures.
In the 1990s again it was claimed that young black men made up a hugely disproportionate number of muggers ... again white young men who committed the same crimes were charged with different crimes.
Very powerful organistions such as the police and councils pretend to be intimidated by anti racists, in order to wriggle out of their incompetence and inaction in this abuse issue and you and others want to discuss how pakistani men are more likely to be child abusers? Think about it...seriously, think

.

so it's class and context which allows you to define people as a gang - the bullingdon club in oxford not a gang, for example, while a similar body in nunhead would be.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a brutal violation asserting male power over women. How could it not be motivated by hatred?

i don't get it either.

 

[comrade spurski]

so it's class and context which allows you to define people as a gang - the bullingdon club in oxford not a gang, for example, while a similar body in nunhead would be.

I do not understand your point....I do not mean this rudely...but I am a bit confused
I was answering a question about gangs from grandma death...my point was the police and other authorities are picking and choosing what constitutes a "grooming gang" and then stats claiming this proves pakistani men are more likely to commit this type of crime are thrown about as a fact...when in fact they are a manipulated statistic

 

[Pickman's model]

I do not understand your point.
I was answering a question about gangs from grandma death...my point was the police and other authorities are picking and choosing what constitutes a "grooming gang" and then stats claiming this proves pakistani men are more likely to commit this type of crime are thrown about as a fact...when in fact they are a manipulated statistic

yes, i was agreeing with you and casting this into a wider context with the bullingdon club / gang thing, expanding your point rather than differing with it.

 

[hot air baboon]

No one talks about a "gang" of white men within show business grooming children...they speak of individual "perverts" ...

..er.....no they don't...

 

[Lurdan]

Can you explain why exactly those stats are flawed?

I'll have a go.

Because there are no adequate mechanisms for collecting/reporting the figures which would produce meaningful national statistics - something which Professor Jay highlighted in interviews. The table from the CEOPs report has to be understood in that context. It was the result of a six month investigation set up after the Rochdale localised grooming case in 2010 which put this issue onto the agenda.

The whole report is here and the executive summary is here.

Quoting from the latter :

It defines 'localised grooming' :

‘Localised grooming’ is a form of sexual exploitation – previously referred to as ‘on street grooming’ in the media - where children have been groomed and sexually exploited by an offender, having initially met in a location outside their home. This location is usually in public, such as a park, cinema, on the street or at a friend’s house. Offenders often act together, establishing a relationship with a child or children before sexually exploiting them. Some victims of ‘street grooming’ may believe that the offender is in fact an older ‘boyfriend’; these victims introduce their peers to the offender group who might then go on to be sexually exploited as well. Abuse may occur at a number of locations within a region and on several occasions. ‘Localised grooming’ was the term used by CEOP in the intelligence requests issued to police forces and other service agencies in order to define the data we wished to receive.

(It's perhaps worth emphasizing that the Jay report deals with all forms of Child Sexual Exploitation not just 'localised grooming' although the latter has for obvious reasons attracted the most attention).

The report then explains - at length - how limited the data it had to work with is.

CEOPs report :

This assessment was designed to assess the scale of ‘localised grooming’. Unfortunately, CEOP received a limited response from agencies, especially children’s services and LSCBs. [Local Safeguarding Children Boards] In total, only 13 LSCBs responded to the request for information. The highest response was from police forces but a significant number of forces reported a nil return. The data is significantly weighted towards the relatively limited number of areas who have provided a comprehensive response. These areas generally have stronger partnership arrangements to address child sexual exploitation.

This assessment cannot be seen as fully representative of the nature and scale of child sexual exploitation in the U.K., or, indeed, of the ‘localised grooming’ model. Data relating to child sexual exploitation is often partial and incomplete, concealed in secondary indicator data, or simply unrecorded.

In many cases, agencies do not have any data on child sexual exploitation. Indications from service providers suggest that because victims frequently do not recognise that they are being exploited and do not disclose abuse, there is significant unidentified and unmet need.

Where police, children’s services and voluntary sector agencies have worked together, coordinated by the LSCBs, to identify and address child sexual exploitation, a significant number of cases have come to light. However, very few case are known in areas where agencies do not routinely engage victims and collect data. Agencies which do not proactively look for child sexual exploitation will as a result fail to identify it. As a result, the majority of incidents of child sexual exploitation in the UK are unrecognised and unknown. In many cases, agencies do not have any data on child sexual exploitation. Indications from service providers suggest that because victims frequently do not recognise that they are being exploited and do not disclose abuse, there is significant unidentified and unmet need.

(...)

2,379 individuals were reported to CEOP as being possible offenders in relation to street grooming and child sexual exploitation. 1,162 individuals were excluded from analysis due to a lack of any basic information about them. The remaining data was divided into two groups, according to the level and quality of information available.(...)

Group one consisted of 940 individuals for whom a full name or initials were recorded. Group two consisted of 277 individuals for whom only a given name or alias was available.

When groups one and two (1,217 offenders) were analysed, despite the variable data quality, the results show that the vast majority are men, with 87% males, 4% females, and 9% unknown. they also show that the offenders are disproportionately skewed towards young adults within the 18-24 age range, with almost half of the offenders being under 25 where their age is known. The relative youth of the offender population is a striking feature of the data that
is distinct from a common profile of the older male abuser.

Caution should be taken in drawing conclusions about ethnicity due to the relatively small number of areas where agencies have been proactive around this particular type of crime. We do not draw national conclusions about ethnicity from the data available at this time because it is too inconsistent. Further research would be needed to examine whether the ethnic breakdown reflects issues that need to be addressed within a community context, local demographics of the areas from which data is drawn, an unconscious bias among agency responses or other factors that need
to be explored.

In relation to ethnicity, the data was often recorded to a particularly poor standard at the point of capture. ‘Ethnicity’ was often conflated with ‘nationality’ and neither factor captured according to a conventional or standardised classification scheme. Within the available dataset there was a significant difference between the groups. For groups one and two combined, the ethnicity of 38% of the offenders was unknown, 30% were white, 28% asian 4 , 3% Black and 0.16% Chinese. When only group one was analysed, the offenders were found to be 38% White, 32% Unknown, 26% Asian, 3% Black, and 0.2% Chinese.

(...)

Many of the cases submitted for assessment were incomplete and had significant intelligence gaps. This was particularly apparent in information relating to offenders. In some cases, there was no information provided at all relating to offenders and the respondent was only able to state that a child had disclosed that they had been groomed and sexually exploited.

Unfortunately, due to the sources from which data has been drawn it has not been possible to identify or distinguish the nationality, as opposed to an ethnicity that has been given for offenders. The ‘Asian’ numbers may therefore comprise, for example, Pakistani or Bangladeshi nationals alongside British asians of different ethnic origins.

In short it makes abundantly clear that Police forces and other agencies had generally not identified this as an issue and did not keep records about it. These figures are likely - as the CEOPs report makes clear - to be skewed by the fact that the areas which do keep any kind of records are those where the recent street grooming trials have taken place.

I'm - to say the least - unimpressed that these 'statistics' are being quoted to win an argument about race without making clear how severely limited they are, arguably to the point of being meaningless, except as a starting point for further work. A more blunt way of expressing that springs to mind.

 

[Grandma Death]

It's a brutal violation asserting male power over women. How could it not be motivated by hatred?

Ok so is all rape motivated by hatred?

 

[comrade spurski]

Ahh...sorry for being dim!
Im kind of gutted by some of the stuff on here...find it very disturbing...
Am off to have fun with my kids ... laters mate

 

[hot air baboon]

^ ...well at least we can * ALL* agree on that...

(...being gutted I mean, not you being dim..)

 

[comrade spurski]

..er.....no they don't...

And where is race mentioned...?

 

[hot air baboon]

.....I honestly wouldn't expect it to be, would you ?

...the overwhelming assumption on any story associated with establishment institutions like the BBC or Govt would be that any people involved would be white male......?

 

[hot air baboon]

.....interesting its only when we got an Asian prosecutor that these cases started actually being nailed :

Nazir Afzal

Nazir Afzal OBE, is the Chief Crown Prosecutor of the Crown Prosecution Service for North West England.[1][2] He is the first Muslim to be appointed to such a position and is Britain's most senior Muslim lawyer.

One of his first decisions on becoming a Chief Crown Prosecutor was to initiate prosecutions in the case of the Rochdale sex trafficking gang, overturning an earlier decision by the CPS. He said "white professionals' oversensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Afzal