Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[happie chappie]

which paragraph are you referring to?

Sorry - I've really got to go to work. Not ducking out - but need to be somewhere else and I'm very late. Apologies.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited their ability to read and understand.

The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons - here's just a few :

• it was 'consensual'
• it was 'prostitution'
• 'they were asking for it'
• 'there were more important crimes affecting more important people'
• some of the victims wouldn't co-operate
• some of the victims wouldn't accept that they were victims of crime
• some of the victims were unlikely to present well in Court
• some of the victims might be easy to discredit in court
• investigations were very likely to be be time and resource consuming
• it didn't fall into the targeted initiatives to direct scarce resources at specific sorts of crime affecting more significant people
• it was easier to set up a joint working party to meet occasionally to discuss how difficult it all is
• it was easier to try refer the victims to other agencies
• it was easier to close the file
• hmmm, where I put that file...
• because this is South Yorkshire Police

Indeed, feminist scholars have long documented the failure of the police to take rape complainants seriously. This was really bought to the public's attention following the police cock-up in relation to John Worboys, the London cabbie who was able to rape and sexually abuse over 100 women because police didn't take victims seriously. In Rotherham, London and in countless other cases women are double victims of misogyny: first and foremost at the hands of the violent misogynists that assault them and secondly by the authorities that don't take their complaints seriously.

 

[toggle]

In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited their ability to read and understand.

The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons - here's just a few :

• it was 'consensual'
• it was 'prostitution'
• 'they were asking for it'
• 'there were more important crimes affecting more important people'
• some of the victims wouldn't co-operate
• some of the victims wouldn't accept that they were victims of crime
• some of the victims were unlikely to present well in Court
• some of the victims might be easy to discredit in court
• investigations were very likely to be be time and resource consuming
• it didn't fall into the targeted initiatives to direct scarce resources at specific sorts of crime affecting more significant people
• it was easier to set up a joint working party to meet occasionally to discuss how difficult it all is
• it was easier to try refer the victims to other agencies
• it was easier to close the file
• hmmm, where I put that file...
• because this is South Yorkshire Police

and a lot of that list comes down to 'because they were female'. and some in particular- 'because they were w/c female'

 

[articul8]

Let's talk politics prof.

I suppose the first step is to resist the idea that this is evidence of "the" (singular) Pakistani/muslim community who [have been allowed, by liberal authorities, to] exploit and abuse "white" girls in general - and which must be tackled by ramping up attacks on Pakistani/musims and their values, and by making the authorities less liberal. Which would seem for many - following a tabloid led popularist right-wing narrative - a "common sense" response. But one that the far right could also capitalise on.

Under critical scrutiny of any real sort the distinction breaks down. The values of Pakistani/muslim men aren't necessarily values shared or approved of by Pakistani/muslim women. There is not one "Pakistani", let alone "muslim" community in Britain but a diverse set of ethnic and religious groupings. The girls weren't just white girls in general, they were mostly white working class girls in the "care" of the state at some level but also included some muslim girls it appears, who dare not speak out. The "problem" of the authorities was not just that they thought they'd be called racists for acting, but because they didn't value or believe the victims etc, and people in a position of authority who were embedded in institutions which had a particular reason to take certain other institutionally privileged individuals as "representing" a particular community.

In terms of framing a political response you'd be looking to contest how mutually reinforcing structures of authority had an institution blindness or complicity with regard to failing to challenge abuses of power, what kind of new alliances could reframe the debate in order to contest the form of cultural and political authority as such rather than to ask the authorities to do a "better job" in policing a society based on class and ethnic division.

 

[toggle]

Indeed, feminist scholars have long documented the failure of the police to take rape complainants seriously. This was really bought to the public's attention following the police cock-up in relation to John Worboys, the London cabbie who was able to rape and sexually abuse over 100 women because police didn't take victims seriously. In Rotherham, London and in countless other cases women are double victims of misogyny: first and foremost at the hands of the violent misogynists that assault them and secondly by the authorities that don't take their complaints seriously.

campaigners as well as 'scholars'. or even just 'feminists' or 'women' or 'people'. it's not just those with a perceived authority who have been discussing this, complaining about this, shouting about this and crying about it, because every time there's a big case linked to failure to listen to women/girls, there's a shitload of handwringing. a lot of discussion, changes in procedures. but nothing about the fact that the underlying problem is a belief that women lie about rape all the time. and nothing is being done about that underlying problem of a misogenistic culture, and everything is being done to aviod talking about it and blaming that misogensitic culture for the shit that women go through.

 

[Citizen66]

Sorry - I've really got to go to work. Not ducking out - but need to be somewhere else and I'm very late. Apologies.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

campaigners as well as 'scholars'. or even just 'feminists' or 'women' or 'people'. it's not just those with a perceived authority who have been discussing this, complaining about this, shouting about this and crying about it, because every time there's a big case linked to failure to listen to women/girls, there's a shitload of handwringing. a lot of discussion, changes in procedures. but nothing about the fact that the underlying problem is a belief that women lie about rape all the time. and nothing is being done about that underlying problem of a misogenistic culture, and everything is being done to aviod talking about it and blaming that misogensitic culture for the shit that women go through.

Very true, all of that. I used an unduly narrow term there.

 

[Grandma Death]

and a lot of that list comes down to 'because they were female'. and some in particular- 'because they were w/c female'

Without question there is class prejudice across society. If these attacks had been on kids from middle class families living in the leafy suburbs the police and authorities would have done more. Far more. This prejudice exists in the media too. Witness the hands across the nation for the mccanns... Yet if this had been a single parent off some council estate on benefits on holiday and left their kids they'd have been crucified. Same goes for nigella lawson and her use of coke... Coverage of her case was much different to say Danielle westbrook. It pisses me off and in this case it's resulted in the lives of these girls being fucked up and left to the perpetrators. Criminal proceedings need to be brought against these people who failed the girls. Full stop

 

[treelover]

You’re falling into a trap.

No one denies white men are paedophiles or there are white paedophile gangs.

But are Pakistani men statistically more likely to commit gang-related crimes of sexual exploitation and brutal sexual slavery than, say, white men?

If so, why (and what is to be done about it?)

I don’t know the answer either of these questions by the way.

On the local radio this morning, they interviewed a Asian woman from Rotherham, she claimed that many many people in the local community knew what was going on, that there had been 'crisis' meetings in Mosques, etc about it, going by local media/social media, the atmosphere in Rotherham is volatile and the far right are going to try to stir things up, etc.

 

[toggle]

Without question there is class prejudice across society. If these attacks had been on kids from middle class families living in the leafy suburbs the police and authorities would have done more. Far more. This prejudice exists in the media too. Witness the hands across the nation for the mccanns... Yet if this had been a single parent off some council estate on benefits on holiday and left their kids they'd have been crucified. Same goes for nigella lawson and her use of coke... Coverage of her case was much different to say Danielle westbrook. It pisses me off and in this case it's resulted in the lives of these girls being fucked up and left to the perpetrators. Criminal proceedings need to be brought against these people who failed the girls. Full stop

criminal proceedings would be a start, but won't stop abuse in the future unless we address the MISOGYNY in our society. which i believe i've discussed quite a bit in one of the posts above

 

[toggle]

Very true, all of that. I used an unduly narrow term there.

i don't normally like nitpicking stuff like that, but in this discussion, I think ti's important. when the underlying problem is that women's/girl#s voices aren't being heard when they report their own expereinces.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

i don't normally like nitpicking stuff like that, but in this discussion, I think ti's important. when the underlying problem is that women's/girl#s voices aren't being heard when they report their own expereinces.

You were absolutely right to point that out.

 

[Lurdan]

and a lot of that list comes down to 'because they were female'. and some in particular- 'because they were w/c female'

Absolutely - and not simply (mostly) working class but from particularly disadvantaged parts of it. As I quoted from the report up-thread :

5.16 - Many of the case files we read described children who had troubled family backgrounds, with a history of domestic violence, parental addiction, and in some cases serious mental health problems. A significant number of the victims had a history of child neglect and/or sexual abuse when they were younger. Some had a desperate need for attention and affection.

i don't normally like nitpicking stuff like that, but in this discussion, I think ti's important. when the underlying problem is that women's/girl#s voices aren't being heard when they report their own expereinces.

That's perfectly true. Of course there were other cases where it wasn't the victims who reported things but who were referred by other agencies who had picked up signs of problems from the outside. And on the (seemingly rare) occasions that this was followed up some of them refused to co-operate. There was an interview with one victim on TV last night who said she hadn't understood what had happened to her until much later.

No-one would pretend these are easy matters to deal with. What is inexcusable about the Police response is that when the nature and scale of what had been going on was made clear to the Police, Council management and Council members in a series of reports and briefings between 2002 and 2006 they still failed to devote sufficient urgency to dealing with it. The Jay report lists a several pages of initiatives, meetings, working parties, policies. What's crystal clear is that these were not given any meaningful priority and in some cases this amounted to deliberate obstructionism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Paedophiles prefer Blond, Blue eyed boys, probably the same for girl victims, and these creeps are fully capable of being Racist.

And your evidence for this is...?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fingers is spot on when he talks about the barriers brown girls and boys face in disclosing abuse.

Not helped, as both of us have mentioned earlier, by the fact that abuse of British Pakistani children by British Pakistani men doesn't sell as well as "Pakistani men rape white girls" in the media.

Particularly because, as is commonly understood, abuse is often carried out by someone known to the person and their family. I don't think abuse about skin colour at all. It's more about access, vulnerability and it the scum think they can get away with it.

Absolutely. A lot of intra-familial abuse is as much about opportunity, as about power, and the "closeness" of a family can often make the reporting of abuse far more problematic than stranger abuse. There doesn't even need to be a pre-existing vulnerability, because a determined abuser will engineer one, if necessary.

 

[comrade spurski]

ok, no-one actually brought you the stats so i'll go through them here:

the white population makes up 87.1% of the population, the 'Asian' population of Britain makes up around 6.9% and of that the Pakistani community makes up around 1.9%. when it comes to general sex offender stats, they match up reasonably proportionately (81.9% of sex offenders are white, 5.6 'Asian'). however when it comes to grooming gangs, 39% of the offenders are white and 26% 'Asian'. though the table i include below includes a majority of 'undefined' within that category, if we collate it with other reports such as the Times report from 2011 we can see that within those numbers, the great bulk are of Pakistani origin ['of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, most were from the British Pakistani community'].

http://ceop.police.uk/Publications/

i bring it up just because people have referenced these stats a few times now but no-one's actually put down the figures.

And who decides what counts as a grooming gang? No one refers to all groups of men involved as grooming gangs...that alone screws up these stats

 

[Pickman's model]

And who decides what counts as a grooming gang? No one refers to all groups of men involved as grooming gangs...that alone screws up these stats

lies, damned lies, and ...

 

[bmd]

After readings the report it seems that the reason this is all about white girls is because Muslim/Pakistani girls are either too afraid, ashamed or unable to report their abuse. However, as common sense dictates and the report says, the abusers pick on girls from their own communities most often.

So it would seem that Pakistani girls are not only being abused more often but that they are more vulnerable and receiving less help than even the white girls, which beggars belief really.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Race certainly can come into these exploitiv cases, look at where dirty old men go for Sex Tourism, Thailand, not Africa, look at where Liberated White Middle-age women go to find love and express heir sexuality, AFRICA. Two different continents.

I think you need to understand the difference in the concepts or 'race' and 'culture'...I think you are erroneously using the two interchangeably.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, the independent report said it was a factor.

It has also been suggested that it was a factor in other similar cases such as that in Derby.

Sure, the Jay Report mentioned it as a factor.
Elements of the media, however, appear to be attempting to place that singular factor as the fundamental reason for the longevity of the abuse, when there's little or no evidence to sustain such a claim, as yet.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well it wasn't because he was white.

It was to do with his powerful position.

And his position wasn't at all linked to the "acceptability" his whiteness bestowed on him in social circles from the '60s-onward?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well it wasn't because he was white.

It was to do with his powerful position.

Can you not see just how disempowered those abused in this were/are? Why can't you see the 'power' of the perpetrators in this case?

 

[Grandma Death]

and a lot of misogynists do commit offenses against women. they may not be getting their kicks out of raping teenage girls, but don't try to label the misogyny in this case as something seperate to the misogyny that leads men to commit other acts against women that are designed to give them a thrill at the expense of girls and women. it's still getting their jollies out male power over females. whether it's curb crawling girls walking home from school, DV, street harassment. and it's all routinely ignored by authorities.

Misogyny is firmly ingrained in society-and it comes in many forms from the extreme to the subtle messages in the media. I think its a bit far reaching to suggest 'a lot of misogynists' commit offences. I don't doubt the examples you give but they are the far extreme of a very wide reaching scale

 

[Pickman's model]

Misogyny is firmly ingrained in society-and it comes in many forms from the extreme to the subtle messages in the media. I think its a bit far reaching to suggest 'a lot of misogynists' commit offences. I don't doubt the examples you give but they are the far extreme of a very wide reaching scale

if misogyny firmly engrained in society then a lot of misogynists will be committing offences.

 

[Grandma Death]

if misogyny firmly engrained in society then a lot of misogynists will be committing offences.

Well we can split hairs and start talking about what constitutes a 'lot'-but across the range of attitudes only a minority of people holding such views will go on to commit offences of the type quoted in my post.

 

[Grandma Death]

And who decides what counts as a grooming gang? No one refers to all groups of men involved as grooming gangs...that alone screws up these stats

Can you explain why exactly those stats are flawed?

 

[Thimble Queen]

After readings the report it seems that the reason this is all about white girls is because Muslim/Pakistani girls are either too afraid, ashamed or unable to report their abuse. However, as common sense dictates and the report says, the abusers pick on girls from their own communities most often.
.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well we can split hairs and start talking about what constitutes a 'lot'-but across the range of attitudes only a minority of people holding such views will go on to commit offences of the type quoted in my post.

post number...

 

[ViolentPanda]

The relevant part of the report was based on interviews with front-line social workers.

Who spoke about their perceptions, and about their assumptions about why those in positions of power appeared to do nothing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Had a lengthy conversation with my mate last night who's Asian (of Sri Lankan heritage) he argued in general Pakistani culture is misogynistic. He also suggested if we can say the met is institutionally racist we can say the same about the Pakistani community . My issue with this is this entire debate about culture is quite offensive. I readily accept misogynistic attitudes exist in the Pakistani community as it does throughout society. I accept its degrees of too. But what drove these men was sex, power and vulnerability. I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this. Secondly why aren't we having this debate about white attitudes and the high level peado rings. In fact such a debate arguably takes the heat off the states failings. We need to be focusing why these girls were in the position they were and why the police and local authority ignored the girls.

oh dear