Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[bmd]

I think race is an issue here, that race has caused the police to behave differently towards these paedophiles and so not catch them despite a lot of people giving them a reason to investigate.

I think that's why there is such a massive amount of crimes here. That these paedophiles were allowed to operate with impunity because of a fear of being branded as racist.

 

[happie chappie]

the independent report said it was a factor based on discussions with the police and other agencies though. ergo that conclusion was drawn because the police involved said it was a factor. which in my mind, reeks of bullshit.

since when have the police cared about being construed as racist? if they gave one single fuck about that their stop and search stats wouldn't be as they are.

furthermore, if they were concerned about community cohesion, why did they allow 1,400 kids to be abused. were those children/their parents not part of that same community?

nah, it's a convenient excuse, an afterthought if you will...

The relevant part of the report was based on interviews with front-line social workers.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I think race is an issue here, that race has caused the police to behave differently towards these paedophiles and so not catch them despite a lot of people giving them a reason to investigate.

I think that's why there is such a massive amount of crimes here. That these paedophiles were allowed to operate with impunity because of a fear of being branded as racist.

I don't buy it. They didn't give a fuck about those children. Many people have quoted here saying the police treated the victims (fucking hate that terminology) with contempt.

 

[Das Uberdog]

No? How do you know that? More importantly, why the media's emphasis on 'race'? This is about male attitudes to women and children and it cuts across all cultures.

because i didn't say that no-one else rapes or grooms, that's how you know. and as for the media's emphasis on 'race', that's obvious. my emphasis was on a cultural issue.

Which leads to the inevitable and flawed conclusion that black people are genetically predisposed to criminality. You're familiar with racial profiling. Right?

no that is not an inevitable conclusion, so long as you are capable of keeping at least two parallel running thoughts in your head at one time. black people are, statistically, disproportionately represented amongst reported crimes - the black population is also more impoverished. we know that poverty impacts upon certain kinds of criminality, and the issue is clearly one of class rather than genetics.

your assumption seems to be that we have to cover over accurate social observations if they stray onto arenas of ethnicity or race because either you yourself are unable to take your conclusions in any direction other than a racist direction, or because you think that the rest of society is incapable of it. that's not true though in my experience, people are well capable of coping with a slightly more complicated assessment of the situation which goes beyond just aesthetically associating different ethnicities with different perceived activities. that is, so long as people are willing to have out the proper argument rather than just try and hush it under the carpet.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't buy it. They didn't give a fuck about those children. Many people have quoted here saying the police treated the victims (fucking hate that terminology) with contempt.

what term would you suggest instead?

 

[bmd]

I don't buy it. They didn't give a fuck about those children. Many people have quoted here saying the police treated the victims (fucking hate that terminology) with contempt.

Absolutely. That too. The police couldn't have cared less, added to that the race thing, added to that the incompetence, added to that a whole list of other things. I don't think the race thing is the stand out problem here, not by a mile, but I think it is part of it.

 

[dolly's gal]

Of course not, but to be fair, it doesn't seem the police and civil authorities are actually saying this themselves, contrary to the suggestions of the media reporting of this case.

Useful to read the relevant sections of the independent inquiry report.

The relevant part of the report was based on interviews with front-line social workers.

ok, to be fair, i haven't read the report, i shall read the relevant sections. i am glad though, that we all seem to be in agreement that the police did nothing about this because they are despicable arseholes, and once more they have shown themselves to be an institution that is completely at odds with the communities it is there to support.

rightly or wrongly, the social workers i have more empathy with, although of course as an institution, social services is fucked too...

 

[quiquaquo]

Had a lengthy conversation with my mate last night who's Asian (of Sri Lankan heritage) he argued in general Pakistani culture is misogynistic. He also suggested if we can say the met is institutionally racist we can say the same about the Pakistani community . My issue with this is this entire debate about culture is quite offensive. I readily accept misogynistic attitudes exist in the Pakistani community as it does throughout society. I accept its degrees of too. But what drove these men was sex, power and vulnerability. I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this. Secondly why aren't we having this debate about white attitudes and the high level peado rings. In fact such a debate arguably takes the heat off the states failings. We need to be focusing why these girls were in the position they were and why the police and local authority ignored the girls.

You are unlikely to get an unbiased opinion from Sri Lankans, Indians or indeed Bangladeshi people for starters. British people of Pakistani origin are like most immigrant communities living in a past that is fast disappearing back home, one only has to look to British emigrants to Spain and Australia to see similar entrenched views. These same 'British Pakistanis' are further hindered by socio economic deprivation both historic and actual, racism and last but not least the fact that many originate from the most deprived parts of what is now Pakistan, namely Mirpur and Kashmir. Jokes about Mirpuris are sadly very common in the community.

Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an historical attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.

 

[butchersapron]

There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat multiplicity of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing that culture and race are actually now one and the same. So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that:

highlighted that Asian girls were being sexually exploited where authorities were failing to identify or support them. They were most vulnerable to men from their own communities who manipulated cultural norms to prevent them from reporting their abuse.

actually helps disentangle this race/culture nonsense as it shows that a) they believe that there does exist cultural norms among certain (asian) communities that do help paedos in their activity and b) that these norms are also internally directed - that asian children are also victims - thus removing the race angle and properly replacing it with the culture angle.

And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani people, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be to racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.

Many of those who are arguing this had nothing to do with race are doing so with the best of intentions but doing so on dodgy grounds that assume when the racial aspect is properly dispensed with then the cultural aspect must necessarily go too - as race = culture. That's worrying and suggests that the far-right and racists have won a large part of their battle.

(I really am going to try and keep quiet until i've finished the report now)

 

[comrade spurski]

As for the gang argument...max clifford, saville, hall, harris, glitter, jonathan kingplus countless others under investigation were all known to each other via the bbc...what is that if not a gang of white men abusing tousands of children?
But is that an issue of race...is it fuck...this is gonna end up with racist attacks and abuse going through the roof against any asian men...I am not looking forward to going back to school next week ... its can be difficult enough being a mixed race bloke working in a primary school but this reaction re asian men being a problem is going to make it worse.
Child abuse is the issue here and it is being trivialised by people insisting that this is a race thing and making up bullshit to fit their narrative

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.

i thought it was because india was a large and not entirely homogenous country. out of 1.2bn people there may be 1m or even 100m xians but they'll still be dwarfed by the number of hindus.

 

[Citizen66]

I’m not sure what your argument is.

The independent report said race was a factor. If you disagree then it’s up to you to say why and then take it up with Professor Jay, not me.

By the way, you've still not answered my questions.

Which questions?

 

[hot air baboon]

the independent report said it was a factor based on discussions with the police and other agencies though. ergo that conclusion was drawn because the police involved said it was a factor. which in my mind, reeks of bullshit.

since when have the police cared about being construed as racist? if they gave one single fuck about that their stop and search stats wouldn't be as they are.

furthermore, if they were concerned about community cohesion, why did they allow 1,400 kids to be abused. were those children/their parents not part of that same community?

nah, it's a convenient excuse, an afterthought if you will...

...well you are flat out wrong on this issue .......short memories here...has everyone forgotten this :

Channel 4 has been forced to pull a documentary, which shows Asian men in Bradford grooming young white girls for sex, after local police claimed the programme could spark race riots in the city.

The broadcaster agreed to postpone Edge of the City , produced by Chameleon TV, which was due to air yesterday (20 May) at 21.00 after discussions with West Yorkshire Police.

Police claimed the observational documentary, which was replaced by an episode of Faking It , would risk creating public disorder in Bradford where race tensions are still running high.

http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/c4-pulls-edge-of-the-city/1093804.article

 

[happie chappie]

Which questions?

In Post 322

 

[quiquaquo]

i thought it was because india was a large and not entirely homogenous country. out of 1.2bn people there may be 1m or even 100m xians but they'll still be dwarfed by the number of hindus.

There are at least two states in India with about 90% Christian population.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are at least two states in India with about 90% Christian population.

 

[quiquaquo]

Mizoram and Nagaland are around 90% Christian. Fact.

 

[Ole]

You are unlikely to get an unbiased opinion from Sri Lankans, Indians or indeed Bangladeshi people for starters. British people of Pakistani origin are like most immigrant communities living in a past that is fast disappearing back home, one only has to look to British emigrants to Spain and Australia to see similar entrenched views. These same 'British Pakistanis' are further hindered by socio economic deprivation both historic and actual, racism and last but not least the fact that many originate from the most deprived parts of what is now Pakistan, namely Mirpur and Kashmir. Jokes about Mirpuris are sadly very common in the community.

Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an historical attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.

It should also be remembered that Islamic and Christian imperialism also had a fair bit to do with that.

 

[brogdale]

There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat plurality of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing that culture and race are actually now one and the same. So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that:



actually helps disentangle this race/culture nonsense as it shows that a) they believe that there does a exist cultural norms among certain (asian) communities that do help paedos in their activity and b) that these norms are also internally directed - that asian children are alos victims - thus removing the race angle and properly replacing it with the culture angle.

And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani men, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.

Many of those who are arguing this had nothing to do with race are doing so with the best of intentions but doing so on dodgy grounds that assume when the racial aspect is properly dispensed with then the cultural aspect must necessarily go too - as race = culture. That's worrying and suggests that the far-right and racists have won a large part of their battle.

(I really am going to try and keep quiet until i've finished the report now)

Yes. One reason why I was pleased to hear the (self-identified) Pakistani woman interviewed on R4 this morning talking about aspects of culture that might help to explain such abusive attitudes towards girls/women amongst some sections of the Pakistani community.

 

[Thimble Queen]

what term would you suggest instead?

I don't have an answer. Survivor doesn't sit comfortably either. I don't think people should be defined by abuse but I think it's up to the person how they want to describe themselves, if at all. That's a different discussion tho.

 

[Pickman's model]

Mizoram and Nagaland are around 90% Christian. Fact.

mizoram: population 1.016m (2012); nagaland: 2.275m (2012)

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't have an answer. Survivor doesn't sit comfortably either. I don't think people should be defined by abuse but I think it's up to the person how they want to describe themselves, if at all. That's a different discussion tho.

offendee or offended perhaps.

 

[bmd]

There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat plurality of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing that culture and race are actually now one and the same. So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that actually helps disentangle this race/culture nonsense as it shows that a) they believe that there does a exist cultural norms among certain (asian) communities that do help paedos in their activity and b) that these norms are also internally directed - that asian children are alos victims - thus removing the race angle and properly replacing it with the culture angle.

And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani men, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.

Many of those who are arguing this had nothing to do with race are doing so with the best of intentions but doing so on dodgy grounds that assume when the racial aspect is properly dispensed with then the cultural aspect must necessarily go too - as race = culture. That's worrying and suggests that the far-right and racists have won a large part of their battle.

(I really am going to try and keep quiet until i've finished the report now)

Such a thoughtful, well-informed and informative post. This hit home in so many ways.

 

[_angel_]

No? How do you know that? More importantly, why the media's emphasis on 'race'? This is about male attitudes to women and children and it cuts across all cultures.

Why are you asking me about the media?

 

[quiquaquo]

There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.

which community springs first to your mind?

 

[Citizen66]

But are Pakistani men statistically more likely to commit gang-related crimes of sexual exploitation and brutal sexual slavery than, say, white men?

If so, why (and what is to be done about it?)

It's revealing that you say "if so why (and what is to be done about it)" and you didn't say "if not why (and what is to be done with white men about it)" isn't it?

 

[quiquaquo]

which community springs first to your mind?

The majority White community of course. Were Savile and the others Pakistani?

 

[Ole]

There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.

Are you suggesting the mere discussion of child sexual abuse in the Pakistani community is racist?

What 'community' first springs to your mind as most associated with child abuse?

 

[brogdale]

There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.

Quite possibly, but it serves no-one well to ignore the fact that, within the ambit of her report, Jay found that most perpetrators were of Pakistani origin. That's not racist or a sub-text.