riots in paris banlieu...

[tobyjug]

It's beyond me why they haven't sent in the army and put some form of martial law into place.

Eight nights of this nonsense is a couple too many!!!

The French government needs to grow some balls and put a stop to this.

They are using water cannon and the CRS as it is. Have you any idea what the French plod are like?

 

[ska invita]

Sue: how would you describe race relations in France? Is there a particular difference between the UK that you notice, day to day?

For me a big difference is in music and culture generally - the UK is a mixing pot culturally speaking, and thats why we are always at the cutting edge of musical genres, becasue everyone gets involved and integrates creating new fusions. Is there a style of music that hasn't been incorporated by the Britishm into a distinct British form? Can't be many left...

A general multiculturalism on mainstream primetime teevee may not reflect reality in every region, but is strong symbol of where the UK is at - In France, it seems to be, serge gainsburg is still seen as cutting edge, and johnny haliday is still rated. I seem to remember that there is a policy on French radio that sets a high quota for French music (and im not talking about mc solaar). There is a cultural protectionism, which whilst noble on some level, is just plain reactionary and isolationist and exclusive on others.

 

[spring-peeper]

They are using water cannon and the CRS as it is. Have you any idea what the French plod are like?

I have no idea.

I'm from Canada, and one of our provinces models itself after France. Their police force, le securite, are exceedingly scary. During a recent uprising, it was the securite that instilled fears into everyone. I mean that in a very bad, non-democratic way.

I hope that the French police system isn't like that.

Canada usually sends in our Army to deal with such problems. Unrest in the country is a Federal thing and Ottawa prefers to deal with it rather than leaving it to the lower levels of government.

 

[gawkrodger]

Just noticed this. Do you really think France has acknowledged its mistakes in Algeria..?

hell no!

 

[spring-peeper]

A general multiculturalism on mainstream primetime teevee may not reflect reality in every region, but is strong symbol of where the UK is at - In France, it seems to be, serge gainsburg is still seen as cutting edge, and johnny haliday is still rated. I seem to remember that there is a policy on French radio that sets a high quota for French music (and im not talking about mc solaar). There is a cultural protectionism, which whilst noble on some level, is just plain reactionary and isolationist and exclusive on others.

We have a similar policies in Canada and I fully support them.

 

[TeeJay]

...Is there a style of music that hasn't been incorporated by the Britishm into a distinct British form? Can't be many left...

Chinese/East Asian?

South American?

Pacific?

etc...

 

[Sue]

Sue: how would you describe race relations in France? Is there a particular difference between the UK that you notice, day to day?

For me a big difference is in music and culture generally - the UK is a mixing pot culturally speaking, and thats why we are always at the cutting edge of musical genres, becasue everyone gets involved and integrates creating new fusions. Is there a style of music that hasn't been incorporated by the Britishm into a distinct British form? Can't be many left...

A general multiculturalism on mainstream primetime teevee may not reflect reality in every region, but is strong symbol of where the UK is at - In France, it seems to be, serge gainsburg is still seen as cutting edge, and johnny haliday is still rated. I seem to remember that there is a policy on French radio that sets a high quota for French music (and im not talking about mc solaar). There is a cultural protectionism, which whilst noble on some level, is just plain reactionary and isolationist and exclusive on others.

I would certainly say that Paris (where I lived and the place I know most about in France) is a lot less integrated than London. I've a number of Francophone non-white friends who are trying to find jobs in London as (having previously lived there) they reckon it's a lot better racism-wise than Paris.

In terms of music (and not really down with the kids an' that...) apparently French music's a lot better than its used to be due to various African influences. Don't really know enough about that TBH to comment. But yes, JH and SG are still hugely popular for some bizarrely bizarre reason...

 

[Isambard]

On a side note, there's a "volunatry" code of practice coming in for German radio next year that 30% of music output must be in German or produced in a German speaking country.

 

[DaveCinzano]

<side note>

the bbc and most of the articles on google news were saying that last night (ie the 8th night of the rioting) that it had intensified, yet sky news was claiming it was 'the quietest night' of the riots (and not just the once - it was the tone of all their reports i saw last night).

what's that all about?

 

[DaveCinzano]

oi! you stole my side note

 

[Sue]

Deleted as didn't want to derail.

 

[DaveCinzano]

i thought 'lacombe lucien' & stuff helped move things along in that area..?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

by the way, sarkozy himself is an eastern european immigrant. but maybe that doesn't count in your eyes?

hmm, he is the son of an aristocrat who fled communism. he didn't grow up in slums, you know, unlike the equal opportunity minister, Azouz Bezag, of North African origin, who actually did. Mr Bezag has actually been very critical of Sarkozy approach to the situation.

 

[Isambard]

oi! you stole my side note

Bien sûr, voulez vous....., ooops wrong thread.

Sue, you mean "collabrateur" I guess?
Do they try and pin everything on a Pètain one man show?

Didn't they bring Azouz Bezag into the government just as a bit of window dressing, I seem to re-call at the time there was an argument about it.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

<side note>

the bbc and most of the articles on google news were saying that last night (ie the 8th night of the rioting) that it had intensified, yet sky news was claiming it was 'the quietest night' of the riots (and not just the once - it was the tone of all their reports i saw last night).

what's that all about?

I suspect it means it has calmed down in clichy sous bois but spread to other areas of france.

 

[tobyjug]

The way they teach kids about the second world war, everyone was in the Resistance and a hero apparently.

That is somewhat at odds with the reality. In fact there were surprisingly few people in the Resistance. I have several books on the subject and one of them lists all people who were in the resistance along the Channel coastal area. It is only a few hundred. (Mind you given the harsh retaliations by the Nazis this is hardly suprising).

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I would certainly say that Paris (where I lived and the place I know most about in France) is a lot less integrated than London. I've a number of Francophone non-white friends who are trying to find jobs in London as (having previously lived there) they reckon it's a lot better racism-wise than Paris.

In terms of music (and not really down with the kids an' that...) apparently French music's a lot better than its used to be due to various African influences. Don't really know enough about that TBH to comment. But yes, JH and SG are still hugely popular for some bizarrely bizarre reason...

post seconded!

BTW, JH and SG would really be popular with the older generation. I am sure that there are lots of oldies who cherish Tom Jones or such like.

anyway, JH (or Johnny, as they call him) is really belgian, so he doesn't really count.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

That is somewhat at odds with the reality. In fact there were surprisingly few people in the Resistance. I have several books on the subject and one of them lists all people who were in the resistance along the Channel coastal area. It is only a few hundred. (Mind you given the harsh retaliations by the Nazis this is hardly suprising).

there is a french expression, resistant de la 23ieme heure, (last minute resistant) which describes all those who suddenly became resistant as the germans were losing, or claimed to have done so.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Didn't they bring Azouz Bezag into the government just as a bit of window dressing, I seem to re-call at the time there was an argument about it.

I don't know if he was, but it wouldn't surprise me. it's interesting that he is allowed to criticise Sarkozy. both Sarko and dominique de Villepin are leading candidates for the right in the presidential election in 18 months time. Chirac is said not to be keen on Sarkozy to replace him, he'd rather have de villepin, the prime minister.

 

[maes]

post seconded!

BTW, JH and SG would really be popular with the older generation. I am sure that there are lots of oldies who cherish Tom Jones or such like.

anyway, JH (or Johnny, as they call him) is really belgian, so he doesn't really count.

I found both (especially Serge & a few other olde style franco crooners) very popular with people my own age (20) when I was in Paris earlier this year.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

actually i don't buy into the idea that the NF getting 15% consistently means that france is more racist than the uk where the bnp get 1-4% - for so many reasons.

there is a huge void in the right in france, because the rightist party or gaulists are not exactly a right wing party as we would know it in the uk (imo). secondly they have benefited from having been a legitimate political party for some time, and from having a very strong leader. i suspect the security services in the uk are far more active in undermining far right activities than in france.

so i'm sorry but that is not evidence of greater levels of racism. and anti-semitism too, no doubt you'll start on that one next. the massive rise in attacks on jews- that occured, thats right, as soon as the antifada kicked in.

i have to say, the english are very very ignorant about france, very biased, and even the most intelligient & openminded englishman i always find to be overtly influenced by stereotype.

perhaps, you could actually tell us the difference between the UK right and the french one, to help clarify our views.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I found both (especially Serge & a few other olde style franco crooners) very popular with people my own age (20) when I was in Paris earlier this year.

serge gainsbourg and other singers in the french chanson style can be very popular with the young. have you heard of George Brassens?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

we're talking about france though. and france has never had such a law so lets try and keep on-topic here eh.

actually, I think it had one before the revolution, not that it's very relevant to this thread.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Oh, and just to add, Sarkozy talking about using an industrial-strength steam cleaner to clean away the 'scum' is, shall we say, really not helping things...

to get things into context, he said that a few weks ago, not since the riots, he case of misunderstanding. his expression, "au Karcher" has been employed again and again in the french press since.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

LOL. your ignorance is astounding. the fact is that this law came in on the back of troubles in schools between jewish kids and muslim kids. this all flared up at the time of the first (i think) intifada. something had to be done.

so they banned the jewish skullcap, the hajib etc, and crosses.

this was so outrageous that a vast majority of muslims were in favour of it.

personally i felt sorry for the sikh kids, although there are only 5000 sikhs in france.

let me point out your ignorance too. the debate on the veil started in 1989, when muslim girls in creil, 30 miles NW of paris started wearing it and were excluded. until then, jewish and christian kids were free to wear any religious symbols they wanted. thre was no trouble in that school with the intifada, as far as I know, just a headmaster who was not being racist in this context, just hiding his catholicism. that debate went on for years and goes beyond the sacredness of secularity in french state schools.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Just pre-empting the universal connection made between bush-blair and everything that is wrong with the world.

I blame blair for the riots the perfidious Albion is at it again

 

[guinnessdrinker]

tell you what, if chirac had taken france into iraq.....

i remember being down at place de la concorde (nr US embassy) on a weekday in april 03-

fifty riot cop BUSSES
ten water cannons
15 armoured vehicle things

fucking mental. i asked some old boy what it was all about he said, it was in case there was going to be a demonstration.....

CRS animals were sitting in their buses and he pointed them out to me, they were sitting having their baguette rolls drinking beer. out of control.

the US embassy is actually, iirc, on the place itself, but the elysee palace, where chirac lives, is a stone throw away. the house of parliament is not very far, just across the river. many politicians and senior police officers will have remembered the 6th (?) February 1934 where a mob tried to storm parliament from the place de la concorde. they were dead demonstrators, IIRC.

 

[Sorry.]

That is somewhat at odds with the reality. In fact there were surprisingly few people in the Resistance. I have several books on the subject and one of them lists all people who were in the resistance along the Channel coastal area. It is only a few hundred. (Mind you given the harsh retaliations by the Nazis this is hardly suprising).

That's not terribly fair though Tobes - (a) Is that just the fighting men, or all the people who gave passive and active support of varything kinds? (b) what date was it? (c) It's focused on one of the resistance's weakpoints - ie. the north. The figures would very different in the South West.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Britain, for all its right-wing tendencies, should be proud for its multicultural policies, tolerant and integrative nature...Tikka Masala as the national french dish? It would never happen.

it could be argued that couscous is now the french national dish. it is indeed the dish most often eaten in france.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

That's not terribly fair though Tobes - (a) Is that just the fighting men, or all the people who gave passive and active support of varything kinds? (b) what date was it? (c) It's focused on one of the resistance's weakpoints - ie. the north. The figures would very different in the South West.

at the beginning of the war, everyone bar a few, supported Petain and the Armistice. resistance only started growing, after

a) the german invasion of the USSR, so the communist party got involved and developed its own networks.

b) the compulsory call in 1943 to young men to go and work in german factories and contribute to the german war project. many were not impressed and joined the resistance.