riots in paris banlieu...

[guinnessdrinker]

Yes, but the (official) attitudes to citizenship are entirely different.

France: anyone can become French.

Germany: do you have German blood?*

UK: how much dosh you got, squire?


(* OK, recent change in the law - don't know how thorough - but there's hundreds of thousands of Volgadeutsch whose grandparents spoke only Russian, entitled to citizenship. So a German told me yesterday, anyway.)

volga germans left germany in the 18th century, romanian germans left germany in the midle ages. all are german now.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I have no idea.

I'm from Canada, and one of our provinces models itself after France. Their police force, le securite, are exceedingly scary. During a recent uprising, it was the securite that instilled fears into everyone. I mean that in a very bad, non-democratic way.

I hope that the French police system isn't like that.

Canada usually sends in our Army to deal with such problems. Unrest in the country is a Federal thing and Ottawa prefers to deal with it rather than leaving it to the lower levels of government.

you don't want to deal with the french police.....

france could send the army, but this would mean martial law, effective dictatorship (article 16 of the french constitution, IIRC) and fresh elections.
anyway, who needs the army when you've got psychopathic CRS ready for actions?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

We have a similar policies in Canada and I fully support them.

I don't know about canada, so I can't comment. do you actually mean Quebec?

 

[spring-peeper]

you don't want to deal with the french police.....

france could send the army, but this would mean martial law, effective dictatorship (article 16 of the french constitution, IIRC) and fresh elections.
anyway, who needs the army when you've got psychopathic CRS ready for actions?

The more that I reading about France, the more I think that Quebec is just like them - including their prejudices

Yesterday, I got a nasty email from one of our local francophones implying that one of my websites was an attempt to destroy their culture

During the FLQ crisis, Canada did declare martial law to put and end to the terrorist-type attacks in that province. Hard-line stance - "this is not acceptable behavour in our country, now stop it!!!" kind of thing.

I think that this kind of attitude is badly needed in France right now, imo.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

The more that I reading about France, the more I think that Quebec is just like them - including their prejudices

Yesterday, I got a nasty email from one of our local francophones implying that one of my websites was an attempt to destroy their culture

During the FLQ crisis, Canada did declare martial law to put and end to the terrorist-type attacks in that province. Hard-line stance - "this is not acceptable behavour in our country, now stop it!!!" kind of thing.

I think that this kind of attitude is badly needed in France right now, imo.

thank god you're not the prime minister!

 

[spring-peeper]

I don't know about canada, so I can't comment. do you actually mean Quebec?

No, I mean Canada. This stuff is governed at a federal level.

Of course, Quebec thinks that they should have that power, but Quebec's whining and complaining isn't the main issue here.

It's just really strange to see some many similarities between France and Quebec, though.

 

[spring-peeper]

thank god you're not the prime minister!

why?

(btw - the Canadian prime minister at the time of the FLQ crisis was from Quebec)

 

[tobyjug]

That's not terribly fair though Tobes - (a) Is that just the fighting men, or all the people who gave passive and active support of varything kinds? (b) what date was it? (c) It's focused on one of the resistance's weakpoints - ie. the north. The figures would very different in the South West.

It isn't a case of being fair, it is case of documented evidence of active resistance members in what was the most important area due to it covering all the prospective invasion beaches in Northern France.
It was not just a case of people doing fighting or blowing things up. It was intelligence gathering, mapping beach defences ect.
Also correct me if I am wrong but wasn't South Western France, Vichy with the French Milice being nearly as bad as the Gestapo in some cases.

 

[tobyjug]

who needs the army when you've got psychopathic CRS ready for actions?

Not forgetting the GIGN, (who could probably beat the shit out of the SAS in a fist fight)

 

[guinnessdrinker]

No, I mean Canada. This stuff is governed at a federal level.

Of course, Quebec thinks that they should have that power, but Quebec's whining and complaining isn't the main issue here.

It's just really strange to see some many similarities between France and Quebec, though.

maybe the quebecois are proud of their french heritage?

edit: your post was about a similar policy to the one in france promoting french music on the box. is there such a law promoting canadian music on canadian media at canadian level, rather than just quebec?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Not forgetting the GIGN, (who could probably beat the shit out of the SAS in a fist fight)

the only ones that could deal with the corsicans, recently. the french police elite.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

why?

ask the question in West Belfast. come back with the answer.

 

[spring-peeper]

maybe the quebecois are proud of their french heritage?

My name is Charles and I am proud to be franco-glengarrien. I was appalled when I found out your site did not have a french version. Why? I find it very degrading. Its like saying that english is better than french. Whats up with that? Glengarry, and mainly Alexandria, has a majority of french speaking people in its population.
Why do we still have to fight for our rights to be served in our own language. Why do the english population have to wait until they have a fight on their hands to do something about it. Eastern Ontario was designated bilingual about 10 years ago. Still, this has not been integrated by all, especially the english.

I hope this will be rectified, soon, very soon. Or I might have to send an email to ACFO(association canadienne franco-ontarien) to make sure you do the necessary changes.

ya think?

 

[spring-peeper]

ask the question in West Belfast. come back with the answer.

How do I ask in West Belfast should I ask why is a good idea if I was the prime minister of France?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

ya think?

oh ah! he is threatening to send the big boys! I'd ignore him if I were you. maybe he is a supporter of Charles de Gaulles.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

How do I ask in West Belfast should I ask why is a good idea if I was the prime minister of France?

something about the army perhaps?

 

[j26]

..... is there such a law promoting canadian music on canadian media at canadian level, rather than just quebec?

Aaaarrrgh!!

Not more Celine Dion.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Aaaarrrgh!!

Not more Celine Dion.

[makes mental notes to avoid canada in my travels, will stick to quebec]

 

[spring-peeper]

oh ah! he is threatening to send the big boys! I'd ignore him if I were you. maybe he is a supporter of Charles de Gaulles.

Charles de Gaulles is the saviour of Quebec, didn't you know that?

He comes over here, declares "vive le Quebec libre" and now it is the frigging slogan for separatism.

On the less emotional side, they consider themselves a conquered people being exploited by the oppressive English. This concept is drilled into them throughout the educational system. I know this because I went to school in Quebec.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Charles de Gaulles is the saviour of Quebec, didn't you know that?

of course, ever since 1967.

Down with Canadian imperialism!

 

[spring-peeper]

Aaaarrrgh!!

Not more Celine Dion.

That creature is a product of Quebec and is proud of her Quebecois roots.

Besides, it's more American than Canadian.

Ick, Ick, Ick and more ick.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Besides, it's more American than Canadian.

another good reason.

 

[spring-peeper]

of course, ever since 1967.

Down with Canadian imperialism!

Dude - it's "vive le Quebec libre" and you are supposed to run around the room waving the fleur-de-lys

Everyone's a victim, everyone is oppressed.

 

[ska invita]

(I asked...Is there a style of music that hasn't been incorporated by the Britishm into a distinct British form? Can't be many left..).

Chinese/East Asian?
South American?
Pacific?
etc...

Yeah your right there, I didnt really think it through: however we did create Brazilian drum and bass, plus the uk latin jazz scene (big in late eightees) has a uniquely British sound.

Chinese music isn't particularly compatible, due to diferent scales/aesthetic - although its worth noting that UK music has been taken up by many japanese and some chinese artists - punk and drum and bass especially

But my point really was that the significant non-native communities in Britain have intergated in the music scenes (indian, carribean and west african particularly) - French music is in general very traditional and looks to the past for its inspiration - UK music always looks to the future and is always looking to broaden cultural horizons. -I think it makes a good barometer of race relations - Punk-Ska and especially Drum and Bass (in its many forms) in my mind have been the most socially mixed, cross cultural music forms of all time: its no coincidence that they started in Britain.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Dude - it's "vive le Quebec libre" and you are supposed to run around the room waving the fleur-de-lys

Everyone's a victim, everyone is oppressed.

the fleur de lys? not very republican, that.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

update: from the news on BBC1, it seems it is getting worse. 500 cars burnt last night and dozens of youths arrested.

 

[where to]

will be watching the french news in twenty mins. will report back then.

sarko seems to be repositioning himself:

"I am aware that the resolution of these problems, which have lain fallow for 30 years, will take time."

 

[spring-peeper]

This is from an Austrailian article

Abdel Maleck, a 37-year-old father of two girls, is a second-generation Frenchman whose parents, like so many thousands of their countrymen, emigrated from Algeria in the 1950s.

They came from the former French colony to rebuild France and stem an acute labour shortage.

Maleck says his parents were law-abiding people who worked hard and demanded their children behave well.

"Today it is so different," he said. "The young people -- they are so rude, there are drug problems and they have no respect. But they have nothing to live for -- there are no jobs. The only answer to this violence is jobs for everyone."

Maleck's anxieties about France's record high unemployment -- it is sitting at just less than 10per cent and can be as high as 50per cent among young people in the urban ghettoes -- are echoed by a group of teenaged boys milling about near the local McDonald's.

A 16-year-old asks me if I am with the police before launching into a sarcastic tirade against the Interior Minister.

"Oh, such a great man. He does so much for us young people. We love him," he says with a cynical smile.

His friend prefers to return to the unemployment problem.

"I have a friend, he has a baccalaureate (high school diploma) and he works at that McDonald's. Is that fair, is that what France should be about?"

source

what a mess

 

[where to]

1. black-british, is as good as welsh-british.

2. Multicultural positive discrimination is an antagonising subject that provokes many hostile reactions (see "where to" above), but from my experience and reading it works. Some fella called Modood has done extensive research gauging people opinoins who had recieved some form of multicultural recognition or support (via policy) and found that it made them feel more a part of the nation and more comfortable about integrating.

The riots of Burnley and Oldham are not, IMO, a result of mulitcultural policy, but a problem of housing-segregation, a complex issue which cannot be magic-wanded away with a good multicultural policy, although atempts are now being made.

3. I just dont think that you can bury peoples identities, histories and culture by some enforcing and teaching a new culture, which is what the French policy is - it shows contempt and disrespect at ever level.

1. mate sorry to break it to you, but whilst the public debate is at that level (and its a start), the reality out in the real world is quite different. these prejudices don't simply get washed away with a tv campaign, trevor mcdonald presenting the news and football clubs doing a kick racism out of football protest. unfortunately.

2.no, the burnley and oldham riots are in fact an absolute manifestation of the multicultural policy that says, come in, be yourselves, but do it in yr own area out of sight. housing segreation is multiculturalism in the uk.

the point of the french system is that is says come in, be french, but not sit in yr own corner keeping to yrselves because it won't work. i support that idea.

the problem is that in practice it has not worked because although the immigrants have been spead accross the sink estates, over time, the whites have moved out, moved up, whatever, and maybe the immigrants are the new underclass. that is a different thing though, something i suspect more to do with inequality of opportunities etc.

3. i simply don't accept that the french system does that, altho, it may lean that way now (as it is starting too in the uk (entry tests etc)) with anti-immigrant pressure from the right and far right accross the EU.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

"I have a friend, he has a baccalaureate (high school diploma) and he works at that McDonald's. Is that fair, is that what France should be about?"

in france, if you have the wrong name and the wrong address, you might be looking for a long time for a decent job.