riots in paris banlieu...

[guinnessdrinker]

Sue:

1. Lack of integration and not just in the banlieue either. Lip service may be paid to the idea of egalite but some French people are certainly more equal than others. Unusual to see mixed race groups of friends which is perhaps partly down to...

thats simply not true. if you look at the folk rioting they are mixed race groups. okay theres not many white, but they are mixed. unlike bradford and the like in the uk where you have situations like birmingham - blacks vs asians.

2. "Sure there's racism here but in France it's much worse."

evidence please.

3. "Lack of employment/crap education. With unemployment in France in general being v high and the economy being stagnant, unemployment among young people is extremely high. And all this is much much worse in the banlieue and exacerbated by the French way of doing things education-wise."

hows that?

four and five sound about right.

point 1: le monde today points out that the rioting was quelled by young muslim brothers from local muslim organisations placing themselves between the CRS and the rioters, pleading for peace. so the proportion of youths of North African origin must have rather high. some local politicians appear to be worried that they could get more influence that way.

Point 2: have you heard of Jean -Marie Le pen and the Front National? racism is at the very least much more apparent in France.

point 3: I can't really comment on that, other than say that my understanding is that the french education way of doing things is rather different, and I am not talking about the principle of secularity and the ban on veils and other religious symbols.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

5. Racism in the police. Go to an immigrant area and watch the CRS stop and hassle every non-white (or potentially North African) young male walking past. Obviously the CRS are fucking awful anyway but how much worse if you're non-white and male and young.

or if you're a white male, but look a little bit rough or/and with long hairs...

 

[where to]

point 1: le monde today points out that the rioting was quelled by young muslim brothers from local muslim organisations placing themselves between the CRS and the rioters, pleading for peace. so the proportion of youths of North African origin must have rather high. some local politicians appear to be worried that they could get more influence that way.

Point 2: have you heard of Jean -Marie Le pen and the Front National? racism is at the very least much more apparent in France.

actually i don't buy into the idea that the NF getting 15% consistently means that france is more racist than the uk where the bnp get 1-4% - for so many reasons.

there is a huge void in the right in france, because the rightist party or gaulists are not exactly a right wing party as we would know it in the uk (imo). secondly they have benefited from having been a legitimate political party for some time, and from having a very strong leader. i suspect the security services in the uk are far more active in undermining far right activities than in france.

so i'm sorry but that is not evidence of greater levels of racism. and anti-semitism too, no doubt you'll start on that one next. the massive rise in attacks on jews- that occured, thats right, as soon as the antifada kicked in.

i have to say, the english are very very ignorant about france, very biased, and even the most intelligient & openminded englishman i always find to be overtly influenced by stereotype.

 

[ska invita]

Sue:

1. Lack of integration and not just in the banlieue either. Lip service may be paid to the idea of egalite but some French people are certainly more equal than others. Unusual to see mixed race groups of friends which is perhaps partly down to...

thats simply not true. if you look at the folk rioting they are mixed race groups. okay theres not many white, but they are mixed. unlike bradford and the like in the uk where you have situations like birmingham - blacks vs asians.

2. "Sure there's racism here but in France it's much worse."

evidence please.

3. "Lack of employment/crap education. With unemployment in France in general being v high and the economy being stagnant, unemployment among young people is extremely high. And all this is much much worse in the banlieue and exacerbated by the French way of doing things education-wise."

hows that?

four and five sound about right.

France has historically (since the revolution) denied any attempt at mulitculturalism, aka cultural pluralism - you either assimilate with the french or your excluded.

This is also why France repeatedly loose the Olympic bids - their entire Republican project is inward looking and exclusionary of difference. These riots, in my opinion, are symptomatic of this entrenched policy.

Like the Germans (who until very recently denied full citizenship to anyone without a bloodline to the Fatherland) , the French need to fix up and get with the modern world rather than hiding behind some imagined national identity...

 

[where to]

France has historically (since the revolution) denied any attempt at mulitculturalism, aka cultural pluralism - you either assimilate with the french or your excluded.

This is also why France repeatedly loose the Olympic bids - their entire Republican project is inward looking and exclusionary of difference. These riots, in my opinion, are symptomatic of this entrenched policy.

Like the Germans (who until very recently denied full citizenship to anyone without a bloodline to the Fatherland) , the French need to fix up and get with the modern world rather than hiding behind some imagined national identity...

'multiculturalism'. LOL. you mean groups of seething afro-caribeans going around cutting up asians and vice-versa in birmingham. get a a grip.

multiculturalismUK = getting a group of wogs and keeping them in their little corner of the town all by themselves. 'we let them keep their identity'= we fucking can't stand them and keep away from them.

integrationUK= going to the paki shop or the chinky.

i've actually heard you tossers crying about this great wonderful multiculturalism.... that allows you to go to fucking edgeware road for a curry! ffs.

multiculturalismUK is a fraud.

there are massive problems in france, but at least they are on the surface and out in the open. the UK is a nation that systematically hides from the truth, never faces up to its crimes or wrongdoing, and one day it will blow up in your face.

i am scottish btw.

 

[where to]

exclusionary of difference

how is it exclusionary of difference? it is a secular state, as is its right, but beyond that, how does it exclude difference? lots of sweeping statements on this thread.

 

[where to]

Like the Germans (who until very recently denied full citizenship to anyone without a bloodline to the Fatherland)

we're talking about france though. and france has never had such a law so lets try and keep on-topic here eh.

 

[ska invita]

The parallels between germany and france are acute - both are threatened by non-nationals.

In France it takes the form of denying other cultures the recognition of practicing their differences - the banning of all religious symbols in school being just the latest incarnation of this policy. The fact is France (and Germany, and other European countries) are profoundly threatened by "foreigners" and still cling to their national identities like dried-up shit to a monkeys ass.

Britain, for all its right-wing tendencies, should be proud for its multicultural policies, tolerant and integrative nature...Tikka Masala as the national french dish? It would never happen.

This riot is a wake up call to the French - their policy of assimilation is a failure.

Check this to see some of the disgraceful details:
http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=165

Note: Assimilation is different from integration - it implies becoming like the host, not living along side in harmony.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

'multiculturalism'. LOL. you mean groups of seething afro-caribeans going around cutting up asians and vice-versa in birmingham. get a a grip.

multiculturalismUK = getting a group of wogs and keeping them in their little corner of the town all by themselves. 'we let them keep their identity'= we fucking can't stand them and keep away from them.

integrationUK= going to the paki shop or the chinky.

i've actually heard you tossers crying about this great wonderful multiculturalism.... that allows you to go to fucking edgeware road for a curry! ffs.

multiculturalismUK is a fraud.

there are massive problems in france, but at least they are on the surface and out in the open. the UK is a nation that systematically hides from the truth, never faces up to its crimes or wrongdoing, and one day it will blow up in your face.

i am scottish btw.

Seething? Wogs? Paki shop? I think you need to explain quite what you mean a bit more fully, fairly rapidly, if you're going to use that sort of language.

 

[editor]

wogs... paki... chinky...

i am scottish btw.

You'll also be banned if you keep up this racist shit.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

'multiculturalism'. LOL. you mean groups of seething afro-caribeans going around cutting up asians and vice-versa in birmingham. get a a grip.

multiculturalismUK = getting a group of wogs and keeping them in their little corner of the town all by themselves. 'we let them keep their identity'= we fucking can't stand them and keep away from them.

integrationUK= going to the paki shop or the chinky.

i've actually heard you tossers crying about this great wonderful multiculturalism.... that allows you to go to fucking edgeware road for a curry! ffs.

multiculturalismUK is a fraud.

there are massive problems in france, but at least they are on the surface and out in the open. the UK is a nation that systematically hides from the truth, never faces up to its crimes or wrongdoing, and one day it will blow up in your face.

i am scottish btw.

I don't think he's being racist, I think he's trying to point out the racist attitudes of the general population.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

If that is in fact what he's trying to do he's doing a very bad and incoherent job of it.

 

[mauvais]

I don't think he's being racist, I think he's trying to point out the racist attitudes of the general population.

Yeah, JC's right - all their other posts are spot on. Might not have been the best way to express it but I know exactly what they mean.

 

[TeeJay]

not really heard much on this. thoughts?

What do you expect when a country illegally invades Iraq? Reap what you sow etc.

Oh wait a moment - they didn't!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I've just read every word of this thread. It's a very informative and interesting discussion, and where to's comments are completely apropos, and not meant to be racist, imo. There is nothing in any earlier posts to give any indication of racism on his part.

My guess is that someone jumped into the thread, read 'wog', 'paki', didn't read the thread, and pushed the panic button, bringing the flics on the run.

 

[where to]

apologies to the mods for causing alarm. thanks mr canuck.

it was a strange way of speaking, but was the best way i had of expressing myself. i can change it if i caused offence.

 

[DaveCinzano]

i'm with johnny on this. i didn't get the impression where to was doing anything else other than stressing a particularly british way of dealing with difference - casual labels and the like - that can run contrary to the idea that 'multiculturalism' means we become entirely colour-blind, or that all inter-group conflict is resolved.

i think it reflects both the coarsness of much of real life in britain - which (imo) falls far short of actual racism, but certainly undermines the multicultural project - and the superficial racism which (unfortunately) permeates british society in many ways.

 

[TeeJay]

Seething? Wogs? Paki shop? I think you need to explain quite what you mean a bit more fully, fairly rapidly, if you're going to use that sort of language.

I understand what he was saying:

"multiculturalismUK = getting a group of wogs and keeping them in their little corner of the town all by themselves.

'we let them keep their identity'= we fucking can't stand them and keep away from them.

integrationUK= going to the paki shop or the chinky.

i've actually heard you tossers crying about this great wonderful multiculturalism.... that allows you to go to fucking edgeware road for a curry! ffs.

multiculturalismUK is a fraud."

I think this is very clearly saying that the supposedly British "multicultural approach" is in fact just as racist as any French "assimilation" idea.

I don't know if I agree (I don't know enough about France) and I also don't like the use of this kind of language, but I can clearly understand the meaning of what is being said here, and it is imo anti-racist, not racist.

 

[where to]

In France it takes the form of denying other cultures the recognition of practicing their differences - the banning of all religious symbols in school being just the latest incarnation of this policy.

LOL. your ignorance is astounding. the fact is that this law came in on the back of troubles in schools between jewish kids and muslim kids. this all flared up at the time of the first (i think) intifada. something had to be done.

so they banned the jewish skullcap, the hajib etc, and crosses.

this was so outrageous that a vast majority of muslims were in favour of it.

i remember trots marching here in edinburgh over it - 500 outside the french embassy. that day there was a national demo in paris against the ban, a whopping two thousand came out to demonstrate against it.

the point is that this was yet another example of british ignorance of the french system. the french muslims accepted the ban because they accepted the secular state. you obviously cannot, because you're blinkered by this stereotype that all frenchman are nasty le pen supporting racists.

personally i felt sorry for the sikh kids, although there are only 5000 sikhs in france.

 

[DaveCinzano]

What do you expect when a country illegally invades Iraq? Reap what you sow etc.

Oh wait a moment - they didn't!

 

[TeeJay]

Just pre-empting the universal connection made between bush-blair and everything that is wrong with the world.

 

[where to]

Just pre-empting the universal connection made between bush-blair and everything that is wrong with the world.

tell you what, if chirac had taken france into iraq.....

i remember being down at place de la concorde (nr US embassy) on a weekday in april 03-

fifty riot cop BUSSES
ten water cannons
15 armoured vehicle things

fucking mental. i asked some old boy what it was all about he said, it was in case there was going to be a demonstration.....

CRS animals were sitting in their buses and he pointed them out to me, they were sitting having their baguette rolls drinking beer. out of control.

 

[TeeJay]

I suppose France's "Iraq" was Algeria?

 

[where to]

Britain, for all its right-wing tendencies, should be proud for its multicultural policies, tolerant and integrative nature...Tikka Masala as the national french dish? It would never happen.

are you taking the piss here or what? you think the french don't like curry because they are racist?

its only the 'national dish' because our own food is fucking rank.

how does folk liking curry reflect an 'integrative nature'?

i'm really sorry bud, but do you really think ordering a curry from the local indian, speaking to the boy on the phone, and maybe giving the delivery guy some chat is integration?

no wonder they don't riot against us!!! we're so nice letting them serve us curry, how could they possibly suspect us of being racist!!!!

 

[where to]

I suppose France's "Iraq" was Algeria?

indeed. at least they learnt from their mistake. you never learn from a mistake until you acknowledge it though.

 

[where to]

Britains integrative nature....
This riot is a wake up call to the French - their policy of assimilation is a failure.

Note: Assimilation is different from integration - it implies becoming like the host, not living along side in harmony.

you patronising...

bradford mate. racial appartheid virtually. whole wards one skin colour. that is not integration mate. it might not be assimilation either but its just as dangerous, stupid, counterproductive. but then you know this, you had may 2001 & your 'policy of multiculturalism is failure'....

whats the one in birmingham where the local councillors were being elected on a free kashmir platform ffs. multiculturalism in action i suppose

 

[TeeJay]

I meant the Algerian civil war 1991 - 2002 (100,000 dead) and the related bombings in Paris in 1995.

On a related note, the UK has had Rachid Ramda (suspected of being linked) in prison without trial for ten years now.

WHEN Rachid Ramda was arrested by British police at the request of the French government, he was only 25. He was put in Belmarsh prison to wait for a decision on whether he would be sent to France to stand trial over a spate of bombings. One blast, on the Paris Metro, killed eight people.

Ten years later he is still there and still waiting. He had no visitors for the first eight years, according to Ann Alexander, who has visited Mr Ramda in Belmarsh, because none of his friends passed the prison's vetting procedure and no members of his family were granted visas to come to Britain. Ms Alexander says Mr Ramda has spent some of the past year-and-a-half studying for a correspondence degree through the Open University from his cell. Such diversions were prohibited for the first six-and-a-half years in jail, which he spent in Belmarsh's special secure unit...

...That someone can be imprisoned for ten years without standing trial is clearly a denial of justice—both to the man incarcerated and the victims of the crime...

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5064980

 

[where to]

what is the point to your link? [ i'm still ranting at that niki guy btw, not teejay] you think i'm going to defend that twirp sarkozy's grandstanding?

we're talking about the ideals of the republic, not the four year old trashy political showboating from a jumped little shit like sarko. it was you who said "France has historically (since the revolution) denied any attempt at mulitculturalism, aka cultural pluralism - you either assimilate with the french or your excluded."

you've still to give me an example of the french system excluding the 'non-assimilated'.

by the way, sarkozy himself is an eastern european immigrant. but maybe that doesn't count in your eyes?

 

[where to]

the UK has had Rachid Ramda in prison without trial for ten years now.

integration in action. him and the prison officers. man, i'm welling up just thinking about it. they even let him have a copy of the koran in with him. god we're fucking great.

 

[TeeJay]

From a different website on Rachid:

"In 2002, two High Court Judges quashed an extradition order signed by the Home Secretary. They pointed to the fact that the evidence against Rachid came from a co-defendant who had been mistreated in French custody. Furthermore, they maintained that no Muslim could receive a fair trial in France."

source: http://www.cageprisoners.com/campaigns.php?id=137

This makes fairly depressing reading: Amnesty International 2005 Report: France

The UK has its own issues Amnesty International 2005 Report: UK but they seem very different to those in France which seem to have a very strong racial/xenophobic dimension.