ska invita
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the UN meeting talked about "supporting Iraq" and it talked about humanitarian aid but I dont think force was explicitly agreed on... but it looks like it would be agreed + the approval from Maliki
Recent attacks in Iraq
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Theisticle
Well-Known Member
He expanded his hard-on for intervention with this:
http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/...e-right-and-why-the-left-should-support-them/
ska invita
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what i resent here is the simplicity of the argument boiling down to war vs not war, nothing vs bombing. His case reads "Left say war bad, but isis bad so war good - left must like war, ugh."
The whole region needs serious support in creating some kind of stability. Politicians should get back from their holidays, the UN should be leading it, idealistically old animosities should go out the window, the world should collectively be treating the situation across the middle east as a massive emergency. Its carnage out there. In particular Arab politicians need to get around the table and work something out here, and fast.
The biggest impression on me from the last invasion of Iraq was the amount of pressure the US was able to bear down on getting the UN to prepare for its inevitable invasion. The sense of urgency that there was, the amount of meetings, debates, presentations, the coverage in the media. Anyone remember that? That crescendo of activity... made me realise what can be done when the US really wants something to happen. There should be the same thing now...theres so much to sort out, but there seems no urgency, no ideas. Throwing some bottles of water at a mountain (likely landing off target) and firing a few missiles at jeeps makes little difference to the big picture.
The whole area is in transition, borders are changing, there are power vacuums all over the place, so much war and violence in every corner no doubt radicalising untold people...i reckon if the left should be doing anything its setting an agenda for solving these issues, demanding some substantial peace building and international plan of action, not clapping at more bombs dropping from US jets. I know its hugely complex and there are so many factors and positions, but where there's a will there's a way, and at the moment I see no will. Im sure there are things going on behind the scenes but still.
*I know its old news but i still cant believe Tony Blair is Peace Envoy to the MIddle East. What a fuck up that man is. What a CV he's built up
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weltweit
Well-Known Member
Iraq: US air strike on Islamic State militants in Iraq
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28709530
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28709530
ska invita
back on the other side
one thing from that article:
"As Sofia Patel has documented, there are around 500,000 Yazidisin living in northern Iraq along the Syrian border. The recent collapse of the Peshmerga defense (Kurdish defense forces) on Sunday means that both areas are now under IS control. 500 Yazidis have already been killed and ISIS forces are calling for the entire Yezidi people to be wiped out."
I didnt hear about a collapse of the Peshmerga defense - anyone know more?
"As Sofia Patel has documented, there are around 500,000 Yazidisin living in northern Iraq along the Syrian border. The recent collapse of the Peshmerga defense (Kurdish defense forces) on Sunday means that both areas are now under IS control. 500 Yazidis have already been killed and ISIS forces are calling for the entire Yezidi people to be wiped out."
I didnt hear about a collapse of the Peshmerga defense - anyone know more?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They lost three small-medium towns through lack of ammunition and heavy weaponry - areas on the periphery of the areas they themselves have taken (i,e they are in iraq proper_. That's caused the rush out of the north-west areas. They need heavier weapons and regular ammunition supplies to win them back.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This on ISIS potential threats to kurd areas is well worth the read.
elbows
Well-Known Member
My memory is that that stuff actually dragged on for ages, and given the splits within the elites and propaganda failures, one of the lessons they learnt may have been not to draw out the pre-war phase for so long next time.
The sense of urgency had 2 stages: The first was pure propaganda, trying to hype up the threat from Saddams WMDs as if there was some imminent danger. The second urgency was more real, and was due to failure to get the UN sorted out cleanly before the weather-related window of opportunity to invade started to fade for that year. In the end they did not get the UN sorted out at all, and Frances security council veto threat was used to mask the fact that they had also likely failed to get quite the necessary level of support from the UN General Assembly.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Bombing isis targets where they confront the kurds interestingly (read that above link - really). There must be weapons on way for counter-attack.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
UK to provide direct humanitatrian relief via airdrops by the RAF - probably from Turkey.
in addition, UK RAF to support US combat operations with ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveilance,Targetting and Reconaicance) and air to air refuelling aircraft.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28701642
in addition, UK RAF to support US combat operations with ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveilance,Targetting and Reconaicance) and air to air refuelling aircraft.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28701642
elbows
Well-Known Member
Any progressive international plan seems extra hard to pull off due to the badly drawn borders and the failure to really firmly entrench in the masses the sense of belonging to a certain nation, as opposed to some other sense of group belonging trumping nationalism, at least in some countries in that part of the world. That shits been going wrong for getting on for 100 years, with some notable exceptions, and its far from clear whether any of the powers that throw their weight around are going to be up for a new plan, new borders, new states, or even regions with far greater autonomy. Opinion will also vary greatly about whether the USA and friends are interested in relative stability in the region, and how hard they will fight to keep the established nations and borders in place. It does seem pretty clear that they were hoping to use the IS threat as a way of putting great pressure on Maliki to leave the political scene in Iraq, but recent events have forced them to make at least a token gesture. Unclear how much appetite they have for taking things much further than very limited air support.
The manner in which our media have so heavily switched focus away from Syria doesn't help either, and is extra absurd looking due to the strength of IS there.
I am mildly surprised he still has that role since it badly undermines the credibility of various related institutions and powers. I have to conclude that the powers that be don't really have a current agenda for peace in the region that would require an untainted peace envoy to exist, they don't care about his lack of credibility and may even be happy to see him make a mockery of the whole thing. It certainly sends a message of some kind.
Theisticle
Well-Known Member
A much better piece about the dangers of U.S. bombing: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/us-air-strikes-iraq-islamic-state-iraqis
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
the man is a fuckwit - firstly the US only twatting ISIS because, very obviously, the Iraqi government and the Kurdish Government don't have the capability, and secondly he bemoans the likely casualties that will occur in air strikes - i can only assume he's never seen a picture of what Grozny, or Faluja, or Stalingrad or Berlin looked like after they'd been the subject of a two way range on the ground.
christ, you fucking dispair at the ignorance of some people.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Giving this more thought, I really doubt that a decent agenda could possible to arrived at by considering the woes of the region in isolation. We fail to affect the politics of our own regions, whose corrupting influence over the middle east, support of the house of Saud and Israel, and thirst for oil sustain the mess.
From what I've seen over the last decade, criticism of our own states actions and who they support is very comfortable territory for the left. Frank discussions about oil less so. Perhaps thats why some were attracted to peak oil theories, because it offered an inevitable change to the energy picture that would shake a lot of things up and force the energy issues to be confronted by people of all political stripes. So long as that sort of thing doesn't happen, the status quo has its fuel and people can view energy matters with skepticism ranging from questions about how much is really available, to whether the energy agenda simply falls into green eugenics territory and the dogma of malthusian wankers.
elbows
Well-Known Member
A very crude example. When Israel escalates its shit, the question of boycotts rises to the surface effortlessly. Less so the notion of boycotting petrol in response to the horrors of the house of Saud. 'It's not practical, is practically unimaginable' seems like the obvious response, and I see no signs of that changing.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The left can't set the agenda in our own areas neither mind fucking ebril. Or do you mean the academic left and their role in international think tanks etc?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Here's one - there was an example in belfast the other day, 100 people went into a supermarket and removed all Israel items. Why aren't we doing that for what people in those areas need right now? Why aren't we building for that, why must this mid-level militancy hide so often? (Which is not a crack at those on the action at all).
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
not being facetious, but what can we do?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
As regards iraq/syria and we meaning people like us? Very little, if not fuck all.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
depends on what the need is.
is there a shortage of humanitarian supplies that could get to those in need, or is there a problem with getting warehouse loads of HS from where they are to those who need them?
probably the latter - so given the security situation, it either needs airlift to get to them, or overland transport with signifcant military escort. the options are either go to southern Turkey, buy a truck, hire a couple of 4x4 full of 'guards', and drive there yourself, or write to the papers and politico's telling them this is what you want the UK's military resouces devoted to.
Cameron is only not involving UK forces in the whiz-bangs becasuse he has no intention of going through the embarrassment of the Syria vote again. if he thinks that wouldn't happen, he might be interested.
ska invita
back on the other side
well i was responding to the Left Foot Forward article which was saying "The Left should... support the air strikes etc" - who that left is is ambiguous. I take it Left Foot Forward is a fairly Blairite Left platform, and thats probably their main audience.
As to who on the left is in a position to set an agenda of such complexity, well anyone who has the knowledge and the talent frankly would be welcome to have a go. Academic, Think Tank, Journalist, Blogger, anyone! Whoever has the suggestions that others might agree on and rally round. Not that I'm under any delusion that the left has influence on this, but it would be nice to see an alternative vision put forward on such matters from someone...anyone! If the guy from LFF can say what the left should do so can anyone else...
Im not saying a concrete plan of action needs to be dictated - more areas of negotiation, a possible set of steps that we'd like to see happen...something that demonstrates an alternative version of what international politics in the middle east can be like... I'm sure Lenin would've come up with something!
Of course i do see how desperate the situation is and how quickly something has to happen, and that it looks like this US intervention is all thats on the table, but I was just making the point that it would be nice to see the Left doing more than just voting on the suitability or not of the latest actions of current state players.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The left doesn't even get to vote on that. Nor to propose. We can;t do anything if we haven't any cred in our own backyard. The only part of the left even in that game is that academic/NGO left that is the furthest away from the cred building exercises required. Forget the left on this in terms of intervention or option setting. I'm sure some turkish leftists are organising convoys as we speak though - beyond that...
ska invita
back on the other side
Hard to disagree but that doesnt mean its pointless trying and putting forward a different agenda, even if (when) ignored, is still a valuable exercise.
A plan can't be hatched on paper by a boffin in the west and dictated to the middle east, but what can happen is getting everyone around a table and creating a sense that a communal solution to the problems here can be agreed or attempted. it would be a lengthy process, it would take huge amounts of diplomacy, but even the act of doing it might count for something.
There are so many vested interests, of course you're right. Oil one of them, but who knows what other murky deals there are in the shadows.
Im sure there is a lot going on behind the scenes, but that fills me with little hope - the quieter the dodgier.
thats true up to a point i think but bear in mind they were trying to launch an illegal and unjustified war in that process - a very different situation to what I think is needed now. I dont think it dragged on exactly - they pretty much had the date set when they were going in all along and there was a lot of UN action leading up to that date. It may have felt like a long time but these are huge decisions and not things that can be fixed up over a weekend.
Whats the best way to see whats going on at the UN at any time? UN Watch looks a bit dusty http://www.unwatch.org Anyone know?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
ska invita
back on the other side
by vote i mean cheer or boo from the sidelines. but point taken
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Maybe time to revisit the confident assertions in this piece. Tal afar taken this week. Now knocking on the kurds door.
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