the american way...

[Johnny Canuck3]

Jaygo

We can talk about the strategic importance of Sudan in relation to US interests next if you want, then we can do likewise on Lebanon if that's okay

Before we get to that stage, how's about your thoughts on the Panama Canal and its importance to US interests?

Then Bosnia.

 

[zarathustra]

Then world war II! If the lefties were wrong about that and they must be, about oil my arse! Then they must be wrong about everything!

 

[mr_eko]

fela ok love is a bit strong the point i was trying to make was that to me it dosen't seem to take a lot to convince someone that it's ok to kill in the name of some sort of ideal. As humans we seem to need/want someone to tell us what to do/think and once we find them we follow like fucking lemmings.

 

[Jaygo]

fela ok love is a bit strong the point i was trying to make was that to me it dosen't seem to take a lot to convince someone that it's ok to kill in the name of some sort of ideal. As humans we seem to need/want someone to tell us what to do/think and once we find them we follow like fucking lemmings.

I like lemmings I think they are a very misunderstood group

 

[butchersapron]

You're unable to understand lemmings? Their thought is too complex for you to grasp?

 

[Sorry.]

Then Bosnia.

The strategic interventions in Yugoslavia have been largely to do with defending US interests in Eastern Europe and the perpetuation of 'shock therapy' economic treatments.

The US doesn't want the re-establishment of Russian hegemony over the area (particularly given Serbia's historic links with Moscow), nor did it want Milosevic to continue with an alternative model of economic development.

 

[Barking_Mad]

They told us they had to invade iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein coz he was a threat to world peace coz of his stockpiles of WMD, and coz he was being nasty to his own people.

So what happens is that they invade, find no weapons, capture Hussein, the evil dictator, alive, but meanwhile blast thousands of civilians lives into nothing.

<SNIP>

You really have to wonder when you read this kind of information just what goes off inside America.

Americans believe Saddam terror link
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
24 April 2004


A majority of Americans still believes Saddam Hussein was in cahoots with al-Qa'ida and that Iraq either had weapons of mass destruction or a programme for developing them, according to a new opinion poll.

The poll, conducted by the University of Maryland, showedmost respondents were unaware of the testimony of David Kay, the administration's chief weapons inspector, that he had found no weapons, or that of Richard Clarke, the former counter-terrorism tsar whose book Against All Enemies has been the talk of Washington.

A staggering 82 per cent of respondents believed most experts supported the notion that Iraq was providing "substantial support" to al-Qa'ida - a contention that President Bush has been forced to disavow. Almost 60 per cent were unaware that world opinion was against the war in Iraq, with 21 per cent saying the world was behind the US-led invasion and 38 per cent saying views were "evenly divided".

And this little bit which made me chuckle......

The poll also showed a correlation between people's ignorance and their political affiliation. Among those who believed WMD had been found in Iraq, 72 per cent said they would vote to re-elect Mr Bush in November and 23 per cent said they supported his Democratic challenger, John Kerry. Among those who knew that no WMD had been found,74 per cent supported Mr Kerry and 23 per cent backed the President.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=514681

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The strategic interventions in Yugoslavia have been largely to do with defending US interests in Eastern Europe and the perpetuation of 'shock therapy' economic treatments.

The US doesn't want the re-establishment of Russian hegemony over the area (particularly given Serbia's historic links with Moscow), nor did it want Milosevic to continue with an alternative model of economic development.

Oh. So it wasn't about oil?

 

[Stavrogin]

that's a negatory radio buddy... Kosovo has it's own spankadelic pipeline... It's got a designation and all... what is it? I don't know, I'm not an oil monster!

Which is not to say it's all about oil... but oil is the pre-eminent component of geo-political power struggles... which everything is about

 

[Sorry.]

Oh. So it wasn't about oil?

erm, no.

what was the question again?

 

[mears]

The strategic interventions in Yugoslavia have been largely to do with defending US interests in Eastern Europe and the perpetuation of 'shock therapy' economic treatments.

The US doesn't want the re-establishment of Russian hegemony over the area (particularly given Serbia's historic links with Moscow), nor did it want Milosevic to continue with an alternative model of economic development.

The Clinton administration entered the scene to stop genocide. Europe needed America beacuse its unable to handle their own problems.

The Russian economy is like the size of Belgium. The glorious Soviet navy is rusting in Vladivostok and the North Sea. The Russian army can barely pay their officers. The US is not worried about the Russians establishing hegemony over Eastern Europe anymore. The conditions were the same in 1999.

 

[Barking_Mad]

The Clinton administration entered the scene to stop genocide. Europe needed America beacuse its unable to handle their own problems.

The Russian economy is like the size of Belgium. The glorious Soviet navy is rusting in Vladivostok and the North Sea. The Russian army can barely pay their officers. The US is not worried about the Russians establishing hegemony over Eastern Europe anymore. The conditions were the same in 1999.

Youre right, for once, but only because there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[fela fan]

Let's just remind some posters here of the american way.

The american way is to kill, kill more, and then kill more. They kill and they destroy human lives. It is their way. They are always doing it, they cannot satiate their appetite.

It is the act of an unstable insane mind. Their language is insanity personified, eg bush saying 'we will hunt them down...'. Even worse, and consistent with being insane, they have self-deluded themselves so totally that they are killing, wait for it... in the 'name of peace'!!! The leaders in that 'free' nation and all their apologists are NOT representative of humans in general. They have simply become insane.

Which other country kills its own people, and people from any other country it fixes its sights on? How many millions so far? When will they stop?

Natural born killers it seems to me. And to find people defending them is just amazing.

They win the gold medal by a mammoth mile for being the most killingest people on the planet. And they're doing a bloody good job coz the silver medal goes to the UK, who are way way behind in the race.

 

[mears]

Youre right, for once, but only because there are bigger fish to fry.

So you believe, 1. Europe is unable to handle their own problems and 2. The US worked to stop genocide.

Good boy, it is a little more complicated than US foreign policy is bad all the time.

 

[Barking_Mad]

So you believe, 1. Europe is unable to handle their own problems and 2. The US worked to stop genocide.

Good boy, it is a little more complicated than US foreign policy is bad all the time.

Yes, Europe needed the US sheriff on his horse to turn up and sort everything out. We know how you like playing that card Mears. Makes you feel all worthwhile doesnt it?

 

[El Jugador]

Mears thinks, that everyone thinks, that US policy is bad all the time, all the time.

 

[Sorry.]

The Clinton administration entered the scene to stop genocide. Europe needed America beacuse its unable to handle their own problems.

The action in Kosovo was carried out by NATO, most of the troops were not American, most of the troops there now are not American.

Quite apart from that, as far as I'm aware I've yet to see evidence of a Kosovan genocide.

The Russian economy is like the size of Belgium. The glorious Soviet navy is rusting in Vladivostok and the North Sea. The Russian army can barely pay their officers. The US is not worried about the Russians establishing hegemony over Eastern Europe anymore. The conditions were the same in 1999.

Ok then, please explain the scene at Pristina Airport the day of the troop insertion.

 

[mears]

Mears thinks, that everyone thinks, that US policy is bad all the time, all the time.

I do think most posters believe this. I think US policy is to far geared towards Israel and I don't like our relationship with Saudi Arabia. I believe going into the former Yugoslavia was good, I believe going into Afghanistan was the smart play.

When fo you think US foreign policy is not bad, when do they make the right play?

 

[Sorry.]

When fo you think US foreign policy is not bad, when do they make the right play?

The wrong play is having an interventionist foreign policy. Period.
A Capitalist nation state is not going to waste its money, personnel and resources on something from which it derives no benefit. Personal benefit and humanitarian concern only very rarely coincide.

 

[mears]

The wrong play is having an interventionist foreign policy. Period.
A Capitalist nation state is not going to waste its money, personnel and resources on something from which it derives no benefit. Personal benefit and humanitarian concern only very rarely coincide.

Versus the benevolent foreign policy of socialist countries which history tell us was always concerned about humanitarianism

 

[Muad'ib]

as far as I'm aware I've yet to see evidence of a Kosovan genocide.

I can't offer you a web site of proof or anything but as far as I can understand there was certainly genocide. Have a look at My War Gone By I Miss It So, by Anthony Lloyd if you're interested. Nasty nasty shit man.

 

[Sorry.]

Versus the benevolent foreign policy of socialist countries which history tell us was always concerned about humanitarianism

What the hell has that got to do with anything? Does the 'liberal' west really aspire to match the former Soviet Union in terms of ethical foreign policy? How worrying.

 

[Sorry.]

I can't offer you a web site of proof or anything but as far as I can understand there was certainly genocide. Have a look at My War Gone By I Miss It So, by Anthony Lloyd if you're interested. Nasty nasty shit man.

Milosevic? No doubt, a deeply unpleasant dictator.

What proof does Anthony Lloyd offer for genocide though?

 

[mears]

What the hell has that got to do with anything? Does the 'liberal' west really aspire to match the former Soviet Union in terms of ethical foreign policy? How worrying.

No, the former Soviet Union and its satellites in Eastern Europe lived in a one-party prison that built a wall to keep people in.

Western Europe rebuilt and lived in freedom with help from the US via the Marshall Plan, Berlin Airlift and military security. Was it self interest or generosity that drove the Americans? Does it really matter?

It worked, Western Europes rebirth is one of the great success stories in human history. (And there is Japan of course)

And much of its is due to the US.

 

[zarathustra]

Versus the benevolent foreign policy of socialist countries which history tell us was always concerned about humanitarianism

Do you really think it's this simple, Mears? Socialist/capitalist, good/evil, positive/negative? It is possible to think in relatively non-dualistic terms you know.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Mears thinks, that everyone thinks, that US policy is bad all the time, all the time.

Today, 02:04 AM
fela fan
sunny thailand Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,611

Let's just remind some posters here of the american way.

The american way is to kill, kill more, and then kill more. They kill and they destroy human lives. It is their way. They are always doing it, they cannot satiate their appetite.

It is the act of an unstable insane mind. Their language is insanity personified, eg bush saying 'we will hunt them down...'. Even worse, and consistent with being insane, they have self-deluded themselves so totally that they are killing, wait for it... in the 'name of peace'!!! The leaders in that 'free' nation and all their apologists are NOT representative of humans in general. They have simply become insane.

Which other country kills its own people, and people from any other country it fixes its sights on? How many millions so far? When will they stop?

Natural born killers it seems to me. And to find people defending them is just amazing.

They win the gold medal by a mammoth mile for being the most killingest people on the planet. And they're doing a bloody good job coz the silver medal goes to the UK, who are way way behind in the race.

 

[zarathustra]

What's your point?

 

[fela fan]

His point is skewed. He puts me forward as someone who thinks US is all bad.

No country is all good or all bad. No doubt the US does some good things with their foreign policy.

But here's my point: to the millions that have died at the hands of US foreign policy, to the further millions of family members left behind, i don't think they can really be thinking too hard about what good the US does.

And my line of arguing about the killer US is that oh, fuck me sideways, they do some good stuff, so it's really not a big problem if they kill a few million here and there.

The line taken by apologists of the murderous US elites is that coz they do some good stuff, we shouldn't get so bolshy about having a pop at their bad stuff.

My line is fuck the good stuff, it's irrelevant while they're butchering folk by the million, and show no signs of easing off on their appetite for blood.

 

[pbman]

Hi

The line taken by apologists of the murderous US elites is that coz they do some good stuff, we shouldn't get so bolshy about having a pop at their bad stuff.

QUOTE]

NO the "us elites" are on your side. They would let the peopel in iraq endure untold suffering, just so their european friends could personaly get rich looting the "oil for food" program.

As it now appears, Oil-for-Food pretty much evolved into a BCCI with a U.N. label. The stated aim of the program, which ran from 1996-2003, was to reduce the squeeze of sanctions on ordinary Iraqis by allowing Saddam to sell oil strictly to buy food and other relief supplies. As Oil-for-Food worked in practice, however, the program gave Saddam rich opportunity not only to pad his own pockets, but to fund almost anything and anyone else he chose, while the U.N. assured the world that all was well. (For the full saga, see my article in the May issue of Commentary, "The Oil-for-Food Scam: What Did Kofi Annan Know and When Did He Know It?").

And since you like conspiracys so much why don't you take a look at this one.

As Oil-for-Food worked in practice, there were two glaring flaws that lent themselves to manipulation by Saddam. One was the U.N. decision to allow Saddam to choose his own buyers of oil and suppliers of goods — an arrangement that Annan himself helped set up during negotiations in Baghdad in the mid-1990s, shortly before he was promoted to Secretary-General. The other problem was the U.N.'s policy of treating Saddam's deals as highly confidential, putting deference to Saddam's privacy above the public's right to know. Even the Iraqi people were denied access to the most basic information about the deals that were in theory being done in their name. The identities of the contractors, the amounts paid, the quantity and quality of goods, the sums, fees, interest, and precise transactions involved in the BNP Paribas bank accounts — all were kept confidential between Saddam and the U.N.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/rosett200404182336.asp

 

[Sorry.]

Western Europe rebuilt and lived in freedom with help from the US via the Marshall Plan, Berlin Airlift and military security. Was it self interest or generosity that drove the Americans? Does it really matter?

Of course it matters mears, self-interest is not a long term plan for an ethical foreign policy. The same set of priorities that produced the Marshall Plan produced a holocaust in French East Asia just 20 years later.

You're like all these stupid Trotskyists who insist that the Soviet Union would have been fluffy and wonderful if only old Leon had been in charge instead of mean Uncle Joe.

That the United States reserved the right during the Cold War to interfere with governments for geopolitical reasons killed tens of millions of people.