Re-opening Schools?

[kenny g]

Note too that the University of Cambridge, who one could reasonably assume represent the sort of standards that we should be aspiring to, have cancelled face to face lectures for the entirety of next academic year.

Don't think we should take too much notice of the practices of Eton and Cambridge in this context. Cambridge is probably more than happy to have their students kept in front of laptops whilst the dons can devote themselves to research.

 

[Poot]

We all have a stake in this. But as someone who has already lost my job due to school closures, I think the schools have to stay closed until, at the very earliest, there is robust contact tracing and testing in place. To help kids, parents, schools and other kid-related services plan properly for the future it would make more sense to say no school for the rest of the academic year.

To give a subset of kids the chance to go back to (a mutlilated version of) school only to then take even that away again would do more harm than good from a socialisation, development point of view. Better to use what wiggle room there is to let kids socialise more outside school, let parents share childcare, home schooling etc.

Yes. Everybody has a stake in this. Not least because when the schools go back perceptions will change about how safe everything is. My friends are other mums whose children are at school with my kids. My son will want to see his girlfriend in another school and hang out with his mates. These things may not be permitted but they're definitely going to happen. And then Granny hears about it and wants a piece of the action. This might affect everyone. It's going to be impossible to control the mission creep.

 

[SpookyFrank]

William of Walworth as for your question about the union-bashing news articles I'm not sure there's a particular target audience, save maybe Starmer himself. The basic tory position on all this is to let the virus run, as long as there are garden centres open. It might not make any sense for working class folk to support that but that doesn't mean that some won't support it anyway. And the mail has a sufficiently loyal readership that they'll keep reading it even if there's a headline or two they disagree with. The anti-union slant is probably going to go down better than the actual 'back-to-school, let's go all out for a second peak' content.

 

[chilango]

Don't think we should take too much notice of the practices of Eton and Cambridge in this context. Cambridge is probably more than happy to have their students kept in front of laptops whilst the dons can devote themselves to research.

It was difficult to demonstrate cynicism in text.

The dominant narrative in education is that we should all be aspiring to model ourselves on the elite.

Y'know, the "soft tyranny of low expectations" and all that?

Fits in with the values of individualized meritocracy that they push.

It's all bollocks of course, but has been effective bollocks.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes. Everybody has a stake in this. Not least because when the schools go back perceptions will change about how safe everything is. My friends are other mums whose children are at school with my kids. My son will want to see his girlfriend in another school and hang out with his mates. These things may not be permitted but they're definitely going to happen. And then Granny hears about it and wants a piece of the action. This might affect everyone. It's going to be impossible to control the mission creep.

And the measures they're bringing in are Monty Python esque absurdities dreamt up by people who have likely never met a child, or indeed any size human being.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Don't think we should take too much notice of the practices of Eton and Cambridge in this context. Cambridge is probably more than happy to have their students kept in front of laptops whilst the dons can devote themselves to research.

Ah yes...the 'do as they say, not as they do' argument.

 

[chilango]

I'm wondering, a lot, whether the current union-bashing by the Mail (and now by the Standard) isn't hugely misjudging the mood of a whole lot of parents?

Because I'm getting much more of an impression that a very large number of parents really do not want to send their children back to school unless safety at school can be guarenteed.

Which in June at least, it simply can't be, so soon.

So who are these Mailish headlines aimed at?
Who is it that they're principally trying to make angry with the teaching unions?
Grandparents will surely be just as concerned about safety at school as parents.
And a lot of non-parents will fully understand safety worries, from the POV of their own workplaces.

There was brief talk upthread about possible rebellions against schools reopening prematurely -- I wouldn't be surprised if such rebellions end up much bigger and more widespread than expected.

Is this likely, do Urbans (with something at stake in all this) think?

(I appreciate I'm seeing this from the not-so-well-informed perspective of a non-parent/non-teacher, but I've probably learnt more from this thread about both parents/kids, and teachers/education, than I have from life and past education in general before all this! )

Partially at least, it will be aimed at all the other workers being forced back to work right now.

If they have to do it, why shouldn't the teachers?

 

[MickiQ]

The claim that keeping primary schoolers out until September will hurt their life chances is just plain daft, the main thing they learn at primary is how to read and write, a basic grasp of arithmetic and above all else how to sit still and pay attention. Apart possibly from Y6's who will go up to secondary they might as well leave them out for the rest of the year.
The same for the first three years of secondary school letting them miss a few weeks won't harm them, If it was all about the kids education then they should focus on getting Y10-Y13 back and maybe even extending the school year to allow Y11 and 13 to take their exams.
Of course teenagers don't need Mum/Dad to stay off work so the focus is on getting primaries back as a childminding service.
This view was soundly reinforced by Gove's stumbling on the box a few days back, Man's a cunt but he's far too intelligent to fall for his own bullshit and he know's that is what it is.
Trying to get the economy running again is important, there are non-educational reasons for getting especially vulnerable and disadvantaged kids back to school but their attempt to sell it as being about the kids future and their education is falling flat. They can't even be honest even when that is clearly the best thing to be.

 

[William of Walworth]

Partially at least, it will be aimed at all the other workers being forced back to work right now.

If they have to do it, why shouldn't the teachers?

That makes a lot more sense from the Mail's/Tories' point of view

I still think, though, that pushing schools to reopen prematurely will provoke a lot of pissed-offness among plenty of parents, as well as among teachers and school staff.
Quite rightly so.

 

[William of Walworth]

Is this likely, do Urbans (with something at stake in all this) think?

We all have a stake in this.

Yes. Everybody has a stake in this.

Yes, absolutely, sorry.
I should have said direct stake originally, but in any case the impact is far wider than just for parents/carers/pupils and for school staff, as plenty have pointed out in this thread.

But as someone who has already lost my job due to school closures, I think the schools have to stay closed until, at the very earliest, there is robust contact tracing and testing in place. To help kids, parents, schools and other kid-related services plan properly for the future it would make more sense to say no school for the rest of the academic year.
To give a subset of kids the chance to go back to (a mutlilated version of) school only to then take even that away again would do more harm than good from a socialisation, development point of view. Better to use what wiggle room there is to let kids socialise more outside school, let parents share childcare, home schooling etc.

Not least because when the schools go back perceptions will change about how safe everything is. My friends are other mums whose children are at school with my kids. My son will want to see his girlfriend in another school and hang out with his mates. These things may not be permitted but they're definitely going to happen. And then Granny hears about it and wants a piece of the action. This might affect everyone. It's going to be impossible to control the mission creep.

All of that makes a whole lot of sense even to a non-parent like me!
This is a really informative thread ......

 

[frogwoman]

Are there activities/staggered catch up type things that kids can do in the summer at school short of fully opening? I don't know much about schools so this might be a stupid question, but just thinking about the concerns about social interaction etc.

 

[planetgeli]

Are there activities/staggered catch up type things that kids can do in the summer at school short of fully opening? I don't know much about schools so this might be a stupid question, but just thinking about the concerns about social interaction etc.

Who would staff this? Teachers and ancillary staff working through their holidays?

 

[frogwoman]

Who would staff this? Teachers and ancillary staff working through their holidays?

Yeah good point. I have no idea tbh. I was asking whether it was possible rather than suggesting it

 

[Mattym]

Who would staff this? Teachers and ancillary staff working through their holidays?

Has there been anything said formally about what happens to vulnerable/key worker kids etc during the Summer holidays? I genuinely don't recall having seen anything about it, but our school was open for Easter holidays. So, it does make me wonder what the plan is.

It might be down to individual schools and whether they can staff it.

The other thing is my line manager has been on to me about my thoughts as to how we are going to get the Year 10 pupils to catch up to their target grades. My thought- you ditch that target grade.

 

[spanglechick]

The claim that keeping primary schoolers out until September will hurt their life chances is just plain daft, the main thing they learn at primary is how to read and write, a basic grasp of arithmetic and above all else how to sit still and pay attention. Apart possibly from Y6's who will go up to secondary they might as well leave them out for the rest of the year.
The same for the first three years of secondary school letting them miss a few weeks won't harm them, If it was all about the kids education then they should focus on getting Y10-Y13 back and maybe even extending the school year to allow Y11 and 13 to take their exams.
Of course teenagers don't need Mum/Dad to stay off work so the focus is on getting primaries back as a childminding service.
This view was soundly reinforced by Gove's stumbling on the box a few days back, Man's a cunt but he's far too intelligent to fall for his own bullshit and he know's that is what it is.
Trying to get the economy running again is important, there are non-educational reasons for getting especially vulnerable and disadvantaged kids back to school but their attempt to sell it as being about the kids future and their education is falling flat. They can't even be honest even when that is clearly the best thing to be.

The Y11&13 exams were cancelled months ago. Bringing them back now would be enormously unfair.

 

[chilango]

The Y11&13 exams were cancelled months ago. Bringing them back now would be enormously unfair.

...and pointless.

 

[planetgeli]

Has there been anything said formally about what happens to vulnerable/key worker kids etc during the Summer holidays? I genuinely don't recall having seen anything about it, but our school was open for Easter holidays. So, it does make me wonder what the plan is.

I haven't seen anything that deals with our vulnerable kids. The hubs were open through the holidays but they aren't for our kids as they are considered mainstream and our kids have been removed from mainstream. Our kids are the most vulnerable kids and for all the bluster about caring for those who are vulnerable we haven't seen or been told anything with regards to PRU pupils.

So no change there then.

 

[kebabking]

Our PRU's have been open as, kind of, normal. Same with special schools.

Mrs K's school isn't open during this coming halfterm, but was over Easter. No idea about summer, the head is unlikely to go for it.

 

[Gramsci]

On the mission creep Poot talks about.

Im seeing this happening in Lambeth. The messages the Government has being given out are giving some impression the lockdown is finishing. Cycle through local park every day. Social distancing is reducing. Now its groups of people together having picnics.

As has been said a potential divide is being made between those who want lockdown and those who don't. I don't think this is an accident on the Governments part.

 

[8ball]

A lot busier today where I live. Like after last Wednesday a lot of places gave themselves a week to sort some stuff.

 

[8ball]

[Poot As has been said a potential divide is being made between those who want lockdown and those who don't. I don't think this is an accident on the Governments part.
[/QUOTE]

I think the Government have just been capitalising on what the media (new and old) have done for them.

 

[philosophical]

The concept of school holidays being for both teachers and students is one to be tested.
Contractually teachers are employed for 198 days a year and indeed when docked pay for strike action it is one 198th of annual pay, not one 365th of annual pay as one might assume.
Additionally there is often a lot of stuff that happens in the 'holidays' such as taking kids away for a week, as well as the usual mound of preparatory work.
It is a bit of a grey area actually, including when you factor in that the kids need a break as well.
If you want to irritate a teacher tell them they have a cushy job with long 'paid' holidays.
If it was such a cushy job one might ask why there are continual adverts for people to 'get into teaching/every lesson shapes a life'.

 

[planetgeli]

Our PRU's have been open as, kind of, normal. Same with special schools.

Mrs K's school isn't open during this coming halfterm, but was over Easter. No idea about summer, the head is unlikely to go for it.

Yes, England is different. FTR, because I've searched, there are only 'advisory' documents, not statutory, from people like ESTYN (our equivalent of OFSTED) about 'digital home learning'. In practise? Our kids were all told they could have some form of digital device (laptop, chromebook etc) about 3-4 weeks ago. Have these materialised? Have they fuck.

As the vast majority of our pupils do little work anyway, this is not actually a major problem. The main concern is their safeguarding and wellbeing and on this score they are being closely monitored daily via phone and some home visits when deemed necessary.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Does anyone know yet why BAME groups have been hit harder?

I wasn't sure whether it was all down to health/social inequalities and BAME groups being a little more likely to be key workers.

Given the number of BAME doctors who have died, those factors may be of significance, but not the complete answer.

It is a strange illness this.

 

[8ball]

Given the number of BAME doctors who have died, those factors may be of significance, but not the complete answer.

It is a strange illness this.

Agreed. I wondered whether there might be a vitamin D-related component, but I can't imagine that is more than a very small part of it.

 

[MickiQ]

The Y11&13 exams were cancelled months ago. Bringing them back now would be enormously unfair.

Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.

 

[Shechemite]

Partially at least, it will be aimed at all the other workers being forced back to work right now.

If they have to do it, why shouldn't the teachers?

yep

 

[8ball]

Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.

It’s just a social sorting mechanism anyway. The middle classes will pay for private tutoring to get their kids the required grades and a decade later you get Doctors that kill people.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

My college just confirmed not returning this academic year.
Possibly no returning this calendar year with a max capacity of the building at 40% of normal.

Looks like we will be spending June doing a lot of distance learning stuff.

 

[clicker]

Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.

Perhaps they could've postponed gcses and a levels to the autumn term. Universities could change their academic year to Jan to Dec.

I actually think awarding grades without the big final examination will be preferable to the majority of students and beneficial to those who don't perform great in an exam situation.

I'd hope there is some sort of appeal system, there has to be? Equally I'd hope students hell bent on physically sitting an exam, get the chance to do so...maybe in Autumn. I also hope those awarding the grades fully make allowances and if anything, mark up. Schools and colleges aren't going to want to find themselves knee deep in appeals when they do open.

The current exam system disadvantages lots of students. They're tested more than most students abroad. I'm not convinced the rigorous regime produces long term results.
Vocational qualifications should carry the same weight as non vocational. What are we currently relying on to keep society functioning? On the whole, probably what would be considered unskilled labour.

Time to overhaul the system?