Re-opening Schools?

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Really? You know what that was in response to?

No. Guessing it is something terrible like Baby P. And perhaps I am using it wrongly as an example of the thinking that every kid can be a white collar worker which seems very much to be the way education has been pushing kids the last two decades. Perhaps that is the pushback against 11+, but the endless stream of kids I have witnessed coming for jobs in my industry who can’t do mental maths or basic English, let alone political geography is astonishing. Someone is telling them that they should be going for these jobs, when a skill/trade would see them much better off. It’s depressing.

 

[weepiper]

Teachers to go back in June in Scotland to prepare for kids coming back at the start of the new term in August and to help arrange things for a new way of teaching. It's expected that the kids will only be back part time even then and will still work from home some of the time.

Coronavirus: Scottish schools to reopen in August

Staff will return to schools next month to prepare for "a different model of learning" after the summer holidays.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[planetgeli]

No. Guessing it is something terrible like Baby P. And perhaps I am using it wrongly as an example of the thinking that every kid can be a white collar worker which seems very much to be the way education has been pushing kids the last two decades. Perhaps that is the pushback against 11+, but the endless stream of kids I have witnessed coming for jobs in my industry who can’t do mental maths or basic English, let alone political geography is astonishing. Someone is telling them that they should be going for these jobs, when a skill/trade would see them much better off. It’s depressing.

I think your criticism of ECM was totally valid. I don't believe for a minute you were slagging off the obvious safeguarding benefits and multi-agency co-operation that has come about because of it. But that, even though it was an excellent step forward, is not wholly what ECM was supposed to be about. Health and safety are only two aspects of it. Two of the other five were to make a positive contribution and achieve economic well-being. These are sadly let down by the push for the national curriculum and league tables becoming what school is about. Plenty of kids are falling through this supposed economic safety net by being failed in schools exactly the way you say they are. Pupils can get into vocational training at college before 16 but it's bloody hard a lot of the time to achieve this. All of our pupils (in my school) would benefit from such a move. We've managed to get one in at 15. In three years I've been there.

 

[Thora]

Teachers to go back in June in Scotland to prepare for kids coming back at the start of the new term in August and to help arrange things for a new way of teaching. It's expected that the kids will only be back part time even then and will still work from home some of the time.

Coronavirus: Scottish schools to reopen in August

Staff will return to schools next month to prepare for "a different model of learning" after the summer holidays.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is the thing that makes be unsure about holding off sending them in June because school's going to be weird/different - it will still be weird/different in August or September.

I spoke to my kid's headteacher about returning today and feel fairly reassured about their plans. It is going to be different - they're planning classes of 10-12 with a teacher and ta and it's going to be pretty "traditional" with lots of individual work and kids sitting at their own desk (and only 2 9am-3pm days a week offered) but maybe school is just going to be like this for the next however long.

I wonder if this will cause lots of parents to delay/defer their 4 year olds starting Reception and keep them in nursery for an extra year though if all the social distancing stuff only starts in schools.

 

[Gramsci]

Think you missed the bit where I said, “If they’re up for it.”

The relentless drive towards exams, pushing all kids down an academic path when clearly not all people are suited to it is not helpful. Now they can’t leave school at 15 or 16 any more, they have to stick around until 18 or prove they are doing something else. All this every child matters liberal shit just pushes many kids away. This is fucking bitter personal experience talking here, btw, so maybe judgement is clouded. I do understand that setting a kid’s future at 11+ was crap, but telling them they can be a bank manager when they still need their fingers to do maths at 13, yet can strip an engine without breaking a sweat seems to me to be doing a disservice to kids.

One of my memories of primary school was doing the 11 plus. When we got the results ( I passed to the annoyance of one teacher) I remember one girl in my class bursting into tears as she failed and was off to the Secondary Modern. Its something Ive never been able to get out of my head. The other was a girl who wet herself on day of 11plus. They at 11 knew what education was about.

The seconday modern was a holding pen until one went off to apprenticeship ( if a boy) or got married and had a part time job ( girl).

At age of 11 even then I thought this was unjust.

At least in 60s/ 70s before the Right took over in this country there were proper apprentiseships. That is gone now. My local estate the Council think running course in becoming an "entrepreuneur" ie self employed is great step forward. I said this is not proper training and they look bemused. This making everyone responsible for themselves self employment is what is shit. The Right wing fantasy of making everyone think the way to get on is being clever at business. Not through collective action.

I was the last cohort that went to through the old system before the Comprehensives came in.

With all the "liberal shit" and no 11 plus.

As previous posts here have shown looking at the evidence things have actually got worse for working class children and its not due to "liberal shit" teaching. Its due to cuts in education to less well off areas.

‘Working-class children get less of everything in education - including respect’

Interview Diane Reay grew up on a council estate, the eldest of eight, and became a Cambridge professor. Now she wants to talk about inequality in education

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

One of my memories of primary school was doing the 11 plus. When we got the results ( I passed to the annoyance of one teacher) I remember one girl in my class bursting into tears as she failed and was off to the Secondary Modern. Its something Ive never been able to get out of my head. The other was a girl who wet herself on day of 11plus. They at 11 knew what education was about.

The seconday modern was a holding pen until one went off to apprenticeship ( if a boy) or got married and had a part time job ( girl).

At age of 11 even then I thought this was unjust.

At least in 60s/ 70s before the Right took over in this country there were proper apprentiseships. That is gone now. My local estate the Council think running course in becoming an "entrepreuneur" ie self employed is great step forward. I said this is not proper training and they look bemused. This making everyone responsible for themselves self employment is what is shit. The Right wing fantasy of making everyone think the way to get on is being clever at business. Not through collective action.

I was the last cohort that went to through the old system before the Comprehensives came in.

With all the "liberal shit" and no 11 plus.

As previous posts here have shown looking at the evidence things have actually got worse for working class children and its not due to "liberal shit" teaching. Its due to cuts in education to less well off areas.

‘Working-class children get less of everything in education - including respect’

Interview Diane Reay grew up on a council estate, the eldest of eight, and became a Cambridge professor. Now she wants to talk about inequality in education

www.theguardian.com

I really dunno what you are arguing against.

11+ was clearly shit. The replacement that everyone was some kind of boff was equally as shit. Surely we can have an education system that is geared towards the needs of the person passing through it, enabling them to make the most of their potential and by definition, the best for the economy’?

 

[Steel Icarus]

My Year 6 daughter's school have sent a letter saying they're opening from June 25th but only Reception and year 1 as they can't guarantee pupil safety with more than that.

 

[Sweet FA]

I think your criticism of ECM was totally valid. I don't believe for a minute you were slagging off the obvious safeguarding benefits and multi-agency co-operation that has come about because of it.

Good for you. I agree with your criticisms too fwiw.

I wondered if Bahnhof Strasse was aware of the benefits in his blanket dismissal, that's all. It had a big effect on me and my colleagues anyway.






(Murder of Victoria Climbié - Wikipedia)

 

[Saul Goodman]

I really dunno what you are arguing against.

11+ was clearly shit. The replacement that everyone was some kind of boff was equally as shit. Surely we can have an education system that is geared towards the needs of the person passing through it, enabling them to make the most of their potential and by definition, the best for the economy’?

Children are being lied to, by the people whose job it should should be to help them realise their potential in whatever field they're naturally proficient in or enjoy.
Children obviously can't 'be whatever they want to be if they put their mind to it', so why lie to them and possibly destroy their future.
Unfurtunately, unless and until we start placing value on people who don't work at a desk, the problem isn't going away.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Children are being lied to, by the people whose job it should should be to help them realise their potential in whatever field they're naturally proficient in or enjoy.
Children obviously can't 'be whatever they want to be if they put their mind to it', so why lie to them and possibly destroy their future.
Unfurtunately, unless and until we start placing value on people who don't work at a desk, the problem isn't going away.

Being in Ireland you probably don’t see them, but the Royal Navy have been having a recruitment drive, the theme of which is school failed to engage you and you left that drifting around, you joined the Navy and that is where you “were made”. Is it the job of the armed forces to give kids a purpose? Why couldn’t they “be made” at their local comp?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Being in Ireland you probably don’t see them, but the Royal Navy have been having a recruitment drive, the theme of which is school failed to engage you and you left that drifting around, you joined the Navy and that is where you “were made”. Is it the job of the armed forces to give kids a purpose? Why couldn’t they “be made” at their local comp?

Advertising and propaganda are not the best places to look for how schools should work. I am of course not saying schools are doing a good job but i really don't trust a military advert to claim they do much better.

Plus it would be older students with a very different set of circumstances, outcomes and funding. Not a fair comparison

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

And what is being made?

Being in the military does give you a purpose but a very narrow one.

How would you possibly scale that up to everyday life?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I should say I do agree with you basic statement that it would be good if you could finish school with a feeling that it had prepared you for life but I'm not sure how that would work.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Of course they are adverts, but they are specifically aimed at people failed by a school system that is aimed at churning out kids to be office-fodder

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

What is the alternative?

I work in 'vocational' education specifically for those who don't have any mainstream qualifications and it's not a dramatic life changer. (I don't mean to say it's not important but it is not a magic bullet)

I'm not sure what we would do to prepare people for a world where it's unsure what the next generation of jobs will be.

That's why there is such a push for 'transferable skills' which ends up being the same office type stuff.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What is the alternative?

I work in 'vocational' education specifically for those who don't have any mainstream qualifications and it's not a dramatic life changer. (I don't mean to say it's not important but it is not a magic bullet)

I'm not sure what we would do to prepare people for a world where it's unsure what the next generation of jobs will be.

That's why there is such a push for 'transferable skills' which ends up being the same office type stuff.

Water will always need to come in to houses, as will leccy, the houses will always need to be built in the first place. Many of my mates are plumbers, fitters, mechanics etc. and they earn a very decent wage. But they all have one thing in common; school didn't set them on that path, it bored them shitless and seemed to be out to set them to a life of poorly paid drudgery. I am no educationalist, but it seems to me that this adherence to the national curriculum, something imposed by people who are also not educationalists is possibly not in the best interests of everyone.

 

[philosophical]

What do we really mean by 'potential'?
Do we consider 5 year olds and assume they have the potential to be a brain surgeon and an Olympic athlete and a concert violinist and a structural engineer?
Or somebody who has the potential to be spiritual, or happy or a great leader, or a great follower?
The concept seems odd and the word meaningless. Maybe every baby has the 'potential' to be everything everybody has ever been.
In addition it seems to be a concept that clashes with the here and now.
A child in a class might possibly think 'I'll do this because in the future it will make me a scientist', or that child might possibly think 'right now this is tedious and I am bored and I want to play with my friends'.
The word potential is as insidious as the word professional.

Edit. There is an interesting play called Gotcha by Barrie Keefe that explores this notion.

 

[ska invita]

Independent Sage warns against school reopening plan

A group of senior scientists has warned that 1 June is too soon for schools to reopen safely and that more time is needed to set up an effective track and trace system to contain future outbreaks.
The independent Sage committee, chaired by the former government chief scientist Sir David King, say that new modelling of the coronavirus shows the risk to children will be halved if they return to school two weeks later than ministers propose. Delaying until September reduced the risk still further.
The extra two weeks would allow more time for infections to fall in the community and for crucial track and trace capacity to be built up so that new cases are found and isolated fast.

“It is clear from the evidence we have collected that 1 June is simply too early to go back. By going ahead with this dangerous decision, the government is further risking the health of our communities and the likelihood of a second spike,” Professor King said.

In a draft consultation published on Friday, the experts say local authorities must demonstrate low levels of infection and an ability to contain new infections before schools are reopened, with public consultation a “vital” part of the decision-making process.
The report urges authorities to consider summer camps and outdoor schools for educating children with community playing fields and sports clubs requisitioned for teaching purposes.

King said the decision of when to re-open schools was a “careful balance” but added it was vital for young people to get back to the classroom as soon as it was safe to do so. “The current climate is likely to disproportionately affect the most disadvantaged in society, therefore it is vital that the government also considers innovative ways to help those who need it most.”

Professor King established the Independent Sage committee amid concerns over the lack of transparency around scientific advice reaching ministers from the government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage), co-chaired by the chief scientific adviser, Patrick Vallance and England’s chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty.

Paul Whiteman, general secretary of the school leaders’ union NAHT, said: “Support for a fixed date for school return is vanishing quickly. What is needed now is local flexibility to determine when it is right for schools to open up to more pupils, informed by evidence of what is happening in their local area.”

The Independent Sage committee will host an online discussion at midday on Friday for teachers, parents, children and union representatives in association with the British Medical Journal and Mumsnet. It will broadcast on the Independent Sage YouTube channel, the committee’s Facebook page, on Twitter via @independentSAGE and @Sir_David_King and BMJ’s home page.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Water will always need to come in to houses, as will leccy, the houses will always need to be built in the first place. Many of my mates are plumbers, fitters, mechanics etc. and they earn a very decent wage. But they all have one thing in common; school didn't set them on that path, it bored them shitless and seemed to be out to set them to a life of poorly paid drudgery. I am no educationalist, but it seems to me that this adherence to the national curriculum, something imposed by people who are also not educationalists is possibly not in the best interests of everyone.

School bored me shitless most of the time and I'm a teacher.

The question is what is the alternative?

I mean I have lots of ideas about what I would do differently but I'm not sure most would agree with me.

Also if we push any particular vocational training we will probably end up flooding that market.

 

[philosophical]

School bored me shitless most of the time and I'm a teacher.

The question is what is the alternative?

I mean I have lots of ideas about what I would do differently but I'm not sure most would agree with me.

Also if we push any particular vocational training we will probably end up flooding that market.

Not only you. Me too, and Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.
One factor seems to me to be that kids occupy the here and now, yet the system obsesses about something in the future.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yep. Often young people are only capable of thinking about the future when they reach it, years later.

 

[chilango]

Funnily enough, the last couple of days I've started some reading about curriculum hierarchy - vocational, indeed any practical subject, are regarded as "lower status" across the West and have been for a long time.

Some suggest this down to some Platonic or Cartesian distinction between mind and body, between physical and mental labour.

My own angle is that it's more to do with Bourdieu's idea of status being linked to "distance from necessity" i.e. a marker of status is the ability to engage in activity further from meeting immediate needs.

Just as Russian criminals in the labour camps would grow their finger nails long to display that they didn't need to engage in physical work - they had the means to not do so - so the middle-classes can study subjects such Maths or Physics whose purpose is credentials for entry into future study - an investment whose returns are deferred far longer than, say, a Plumbing course.

The higher up you go, the more pronounced this becomes with archetypical subjects of privilege being things like Classics

 

[ska invita]

Funnily enough, the last couple of days I've started some reading about curriculum hierarchy - vocational, indeed any practical subject, are regarded as "lower status" across the West and have been for a long time.

Some suggest this down to some Platonic or Cartesian distinction between mind and body, between physical and mental labour.

My own angle is that it's more to do with Bourdieu's idea of status being linked to "distance from necessity" i.e. a marker of status is the ability to engage in activity further from meeting immediate needs.

Just as Russian criminals in the labour camps would grow their finger nails long to display that they didn't need to engage in physical work - they had the means to not do so - so the middle-classes can study subjects such Maths or Physics whose purpose is credentials for entry into future study - an investment whose returns are deferred far longer than, say, a Plumbing course.

The higher up you go, the more pronounced this becomes with archetypical subjects of privilege being things like Classics

"We fully recognise the necessity of specialisation of knowledge, but we maintain that specialisation must follow general education, and that general education must be given in science and handicraft alike. To the division of society into brainworkers and manual workers we oppose the combination of both kinds of activities; and instead of `technical education,' which means the maintenance of the present division between brain work and manual work, we advocate the éducation intégrale, or complete education, which means the disappearance of that pernicious distinction." Kropotkin

...IIRC a big part of that was to get kids doing a lot more practical things in schools, outside of the classroom a lot, which engage kids more too. Subject for a seperate thread really

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Yeah.
I've had ideas for a more indiviudulised system using computer systems and a gamified system. Students would be free to follow what ever projects they wanted and would gain points based on achievements. Topics that are considered important would be worth more points. People doing similar projects would be linked together through the system to cooperate. Rather than classes it would be project spaces.

However I do feel that this system probably does require some form of regular teaching of younger students to prepare them for this system.

I imagine it would get a lot of pushback though.

 

[chilango]

My last post on this (as Ska says it's for another thread really)

The above taxonomy shows the value placed on A level subjects by Russell Group universities. Obviously the languages are a specific anomaly but beyond that it's fairly depressingly predictable....

 

[philosophical]

My partner teaches a foreign language. Now I am aware that language is wrapped up in culture, and teaching and learning the entirety of language is impossible, but I have often thought that learning a foreign language is a very 'pure' form of teaching and learning.

 

[nagapie]

No. Guessing it is something terrible like Baby P. And perhaps I am using it wrongly as an example of the thinking that every kid can be a white collar worker which seems very much to be the way education has been pushing kids the last two decades. Perhaps that is the pushback against 11+, but the endless stream of kids I have witnessed coming for jobs in my industry who can’t do mental maths or basic English, let alone political geography is astonishing. Someone is telling them that they should be going for these jobs, when a skill/trade would see them much better off. It’s depressing.

There are so many reasons literacy and numeracy are bad in this country and imo the biggest is the start of formal education way too early before children are neurologically ready and the relentless push on exams which replaces real learning with hoop jumping.

 

[8ball]

There are so many reasons literacy and numeracy are bad in this country and imo the biggest is the start of formal education way too early before children are neurologically ready and the relentless push on exams which replaces real learning with hoop jumping.

What is it about 'formal education' specifically that kids aren't neurologically ready for?

 

[nagapie]

What is it about 'formal education' specifically that kids aren't neurologically ready for?

At it's most basic, they are told to stop moving and sit still when they should be learning through sensory exploration, movement and play.

 

[nagapie]

What is it about 'formal education' specifically that kids aren't neurologically ready for?

If you haven't yet learnt how to co-ordinate your body well, how can you then sit down and be a good writer. The visual system, for example, is not fully matured until around ages 7-9. You develop it by moving through time and space. If you have to suddenly sit on the carpet or sit at a table abruptly, you may not be ready to process the written word.