Purnell: more attacks on the unemployed, etc

[jiggajagga]

Tell you what I found sad but funny about all this.

One of the first things the NU Labour gov did on coming to power was to take £6 off single mums.
How ironic it will be if the last thing they do is take £11 of the ill and disabled?

If ever a political party has shot itself in the foot NU labour is it!!

 

[trevhagl]

Why should I find YOU an employer???

Did YOU find ME one?

If you are only taking out what you have put in I assume that you must mean that those who haven't 'paid in' should get nothing?

What should happen once you have got back all you paid in?


The guy I work with was born without arms .
He drives a specially adapted vehicle provided by his employer and works full time having found the job by himself.
Too many bemoan their 'lot' and 'list' all the reasons why THEY should not work, however my original post was questioning why those on Jobseekers allowance wouldn't be the first ones targetted.

It seems to be assumed that those who are on IB would be dragged from their beds/wheelchairs/iron lungs etc and be forced into accepting any job whether it is suitable or not .
Is there actually any evidence of this???

Anyone have documented proof that those who are genuinely incapable of doing any work ,have been forced into jobs?

Just out of interest how many of you out there suspect that some who are claiming IB are not really deserving.
The Football linesman case is a prime example. None of his neighbours suspected anything?
Or how about the guy with the bad back who won weight lifting competitions.
They do exist, despite protestations to the contrary.

You must have a pretty horrible life to be that bitter towards the poor and the sick!

 

[The Black Hand]

You must have a pretty horrible life to be that bitter towards the poor and the sick!

You're not wrong Trev.

 

[tbaldwin]

They say they are. WHo are you to say all these people are wrong? I do think life has got very stressful, far more than it used to be, for the poor. 'It's the economy stupid', as Bill Clinton used to say.

Not really sure what you mean by more stressful? I think that some people opted for IB over Jsa cos they knew it was more money and they wouldnt have to sign on or go to the Jobcentre so often.
All this hysterical nonsense about the govt attacking the disabled taking their money is rubbish. The benefits system is inconsistent and a total mess to be honest.
People who consider themselves to the Left of Labour seem to have nothing sensible as an alternative to ESA.
Much easier to be hysterical than to look at any real alternative.

 

[tbaldwin]

You must have a pretty horrible life to be that bitter towards the poor and the sick!

I dont think he seems bitter towards sick or disabled people. Just pissed off with people who use the system in a dishonest way.
It is 2 very different things.

 

[The Black Hand]

Not really sure what you mean by more stressful? I think that some people opted for IB over Jsa cos they knew it was more money and they wouldnt have to sign on or go to the Jobcentre so often.
All this hysterical nonsense about the govt attacking the disabled taking their money is rubbish. The benefits system is inconsistent and a total mess to be honest.
People who consider themselves to the Left of Labour seem to have nothing sensible as an alternative to ESA.
Much easier to be hysterical than to look at any real alternative.

Yes the government is doing this to save money. That is the only reason. Oh, and votes, but that comes lower down the list.

The alternative to the ESA is autonomy

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why should I find YOU an employer???

Because you're the fuckmuppet shouting the odds, Dennis. That's why.

Did YOU find ME one?

No, but I wouldn't know where to start to find a job for a village idiot, so think yourself lucky.

If you are only taking out what you have put in I assume that you must mean that those who haven't 'paid in' should get nothing?

There's a big problem with making assumptions, Dennis, and that's that assumptions are usually wrong.
Incapacity benefit is predicated on you having made National Insurance contributions, so ANYONE on IB has "paid in". JSA doesn't require you to have "paid in", hence the difference in the size of payment.

What should happen once you have got back all you paid in?

I could be flip and say "I'd put your mum on the game", but I won't, I'll be serious and say "do some research on 'pooled risk insurance' and why and how it works". That way, you can answer your own question.

The guy I work with was born without arms .
He drives a specially adapted vehicle provided by his employer and works full time having found the job by himself.

So he has a single major disability. Lucky him.

Too many bemoan their 'lot' and 'list' all the reasons why THEY should not work...

Which can be translated as "some uppity bastards dare to question my assumptions", pretty much.

...however my original post was questioning why those on Jobseekers allowance wouldn't be the first ones targetted.

That's fairly obvious. It's because the majority of JSA claimants are short-term. Harrassing the "hard-core" of JSA claimants means about 100,00 (maximum) for the govt to kick about in the tabloids. Far better to imply that the 2.6 million IB claimants (15% of whom don't actually receive any Incapacity Benefit anyway) are all scroungers. IT makes people feel far more smug in their bitterness.

It seems to be assumed that those who are on IB would be dragged from their beds/wheelchairs/iron lungs etc and be forced into accepting any job whether it is suitable or not.

I haven't seen any such assumptions. What I have seen are worries that people will be coerced into applying for jobs that they're not suited for, and cause themselves further health problems.

Is there actually any evidence of this???

Why would there be evidence of an assumption?

Anyone have documented proof that those who are genuinely incapable of doing any work ,have been forced into jobs?

Snore.

Just out of interest how many of you out there suspect that some who are claiming IB are not really deserving.
The Football linesman case is a prime example. None of his neighbours suspected anything?
Or how about the guy with the bad back who won weight lifting competitions.
They do exist, despite protestations to the contrary.

Wow, 2 cases, so thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands must be at it!

 

[trevhagl]

I dont think he seems bitter towards sick or disabled people. Just pissed off with people who use the system in a dishonest way.
It is 2 very different things.

The same applies to you. Do you work in Macdonalds or something?

 

[Barking_Mad]

My little story.........

For the first time in 15 years i found myself out of work a few weeks ago. The previous week to being unemployed I'd applied for a job, been for interview and had waited for a reply. Because of this I didn't sign-on straight away, i thought I could well get the job and even if I didn't that i'd be able to backdate my claim. Which is where my problems began.....

By Thursday of the week of my unemployment, i'd still not heard anything about my potential job, so i rang up the Job Centre and completed a 55 minute claim over phone and then went for an interview the next Wednesday. By the time the interview came round i'd been told i didn't have the job i'd applied for but I had found some more temporary work. Therefore id only be claiming for 5 days.

I explained this at the job centre at my interview and was told that i should have claimed straight away and the only excuses accepted for not claiming were sickness and attendance of funerals. Therefore my own reason, that of trying to find work and not make a claim, would most likely not be accepted. Besides that there is also a 3 day(?) period of first being unemployed where you can't claim, so my own would only be for 2 days anyway.

This morning i was told i would not get any money due to not registering unemployed immediately. Ironically, my reason of looking for work and thus avoiding signing on, and giving a genuine reason for not doing so (rather than claiming my dog died or that i had flu) cost me the claim.

Is it any wonder people swindle the system?

 

[audiotech]

My little story.........

For the first time in 15 years i found myself out of work a few weeks ago. The previous week to being unemployed I'd applied for a job, been for interview and had waited for a reply. Because of this I didn't sign-on straight away, i thought I could well get the job and even if I didn't that i'd be able to backdate my claim. Which is where my problems began.....

By Thursday of the week of my unemployment, i'd still not heard anything about my potential job, so i rang up the Job Centre and completed a 55 minute claim over phone and then went for an interview the next Wednesday. By the time the interview came round i'd been told i didn't have the job i'd applied for but I had found some more temporary work. Therefore id only be claiming for 5 days.

I explained this at the job centre at my interview and was told that i should have claimed straight away and the only excuses accepted for not claiming were sickness and attendance of funerals. Therefore my own reason, that of trying to find work and not make a claim, would most likely not be accepted. Besides that there is also a 3 day(?) period of first being unemployed where you can't claim, so my own would only be for 2 days anyway.

This morning i was told i would not get any money due to not registering unemployed immediately. Ironically, my reason of looking for work and thus avoiding signing on, and giving a genuine reason for not doing so (rather than claiming my dog died or that i had flu) cost me the claim.

Is it any wonder people swindle the system?

Had similar experiences to that. End up in agency work, being called when necessary and having large gaps in between makes the whole process a nightmare.

 

[tbaldwin]

The same applies to you. Do you work in Macdonalds or something?

Sorry. But that makes no sense whatever.

 

[tbaldwin]

The guy I work with was born without arms .
He drives a specially adapted vehicle provided by his employer and works full time having found the job by himself.

So he has a single major disability. Lucky him.

Classic.

 

[The Black Hand]

The guy I work with was born without arms .
He drives a specially adapted vehicle provided by his employer and works full time having found the job by himself.

So he has a single major disability. Lucky him.

Classic.

And?

 

[treelover]

Already, a number of insurance companies are saying they will not insure certain 'employees' under these schemes, and many employers will be reluctant to take them on. Ultimately, this will be about the treasury saving money and punitive measures against the poor.


The big question is, as people have posted on the Compass site, is where is the opposition to all this?

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/article.asp?n=2733#comments

 

[tbaldwin]

Already, a number of insurance companies are saying they will not insure certain 'employees' under these schemes, and many employers will be reluctant to take them on. Ultimately, this will be about the treasury saving money and punitive measures against the poor.


The big question is, as people have posted on the Compass site, is where is the opposition to all this?

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/article.asp?n=2733#comments

Yeah it is a big question.
The thing is though what kind of opposition is going to be based solely on a defensive struggle.
People may hate denniseagle and/or me for our posts. But many people think the present system is preety hopeless and open to abuse.
To suggest all of those people either hate disabled people or work in McDonalds......... is not exactly constructive.

The truth is that there are thousands of disabled people who will be very worried by any talk of benefit reforms. I do not think its responsible to either whip up those fears or ignore them.
The truth is that there will always be people to abuse the benefit system,just as there are people who evade tax....

The truth is that many people on IB would have much better lives if they had jobs.
The truth is that Doctors are not really in any position to say who can and cant work in many cases. A lot of their judgements are less than hopeless.

The Left if they actually gave a shit about disabled/disadvantaged people in this country should actually be able to come up witn some realistic counter proposals....I wonder if they will?

 

[denniseagle]

I dont think he seems bitter towards sick or disabled people. Just pissed off with people who use the system in a dishonest way.
It is 2 very different things.

Thank you , some on here seem to read what theywant into postings rather than actually read what is posted.

 

[The Black Hand]

Yeah it is a big question.
A) The thing is though what kind of opposition is going to be based solely on a defensive struggle.
B) People may hate denniseagle and/or me for our posts. But many people think the present system is preety hopeless and open to abuse.
C) To suggest all of those people either hate disabled people or work in McDonalds......... is not exactly constructive.

d) The truth is that there are thousands of disabled people who will be very worried by any talk of benefit reforms. I do not think its responsible to either whip up those fears or ignore them.
e) The truth is that there will always be people to abuse the benefit system,just as there are people who evade tax....

f)The truth is that many people on IB would have much better lives if they had jobs.
g) The truth is that Doctors are not really in any position to say who can and cant work in many cases. A lot of their judgements are less than hopeless.

h)The Left if they actually gave a shit about disabled/disadvantaged people in this country should actually be able to come up witn some realistic counter proposals....I wonder if they will?

The TRUTH is too big a word to use so lightly. Infact you have posted your opinions NOT the truth.

A) Might be the best we have got at the minute, we don't need to all agree, now and today, what we want in its place. That can emerge through struggle.
B) No, it is too hard. You think its easy cos you haven't signed on for incapacity benefit and/or been genuinely worried.
C) Well stop agreeing with the right then.
D) Well stop whipping up those fears then.
E) So what?
F) No - you have no evidence for that, and i think it is wrong. The disabled WILL NOT be better off in temp McJobs on Minimum wage.
G) Soooo not absolutely true, in a few cases perhaps, but again you have no evidence.
H) Sorry, but that statement is not true - it is your wishful thinking.

 

[denniseagle]

Because you're the fuckmuppet shouting the odds, Dennis. That's why.

No, but I wouldn't know where to start to find a job for a village idiot, so think yourself lucky.

There's a big problem with making assumptions, Dennis, and that's that assumptions are usually wrong.
Incapacity benefit is predicated on you having made National Insurance contributions, so ANYONE on IB has "paid in". JSA doesn't require you to have "paid in", hence the difference in the size of payment.

I could be flip and say "I'd put your mum on the game", but I won't, I'll be serious and say "do some research on 'pooled risk insurance' and why and how it works". That way, you can answer your own question.

So he has a single major disability. Lucky him.

Which can be translated as "some uppity bastards dare to question my assumptions", pretty much.

That's fairly obvious. It's because the majority of JSA claimants are short-term. Harrassing the "hard-core" of JSA claimants means about 100,00 (maximum) for the govt to kick about in the tabloids. Far better to imply that the 2.6 million IB claimants (15% of whom don't actually receive any Incapacity Benefit anyway) are all scroungers. IT makes people feel far more smug in their bitterness.

I haven't seen any such assumptions. What I have seen are worries that people will be coerced into applying for jobs that they're not suited for, and cause themselves further health problems.

Why would there be evidence of an assumption?

Snore.

Wow, 2 cases, so thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands must be at it!

Why the vitriol??
Do you always attempt to debate using insults rather than answers?
I have asked a few simple questions and given one example of someone who could quite legitimately claim benfits due to his disability but chooses not to, and get back insults in return.

If you wish to have you opinions accepted perhaps you may want to reflect on your presentation.
Avoiding answering the questions put and relying on insults doesn't really advance your argument much.

Can I attempt another simple question for you?

2.6 million IB claimants now, as opposed to how many 10 years ago?

Everyone of which are genuine claimants and unable to work in any capacity ................

 

[shagnasty]

Many people in the oncomining credit crunch will find themself out of a job through no fault of their own decent honest hard working people ,are they the workshy the lazy .they will also have a hard job finding a job and to top it all they have been tainted with easy credit encouraged by this government and inflated mortgages are they to blame.what you are recommending is telling them it is all their fault and giving them a kick in the bollocks ,is that the kind of society you want ,i know i don't

 

[ViolentPanda]

The guy I work with was born without arms .
He drives a specially adapted vehicle provided by his employer and works full time having found the job by himself.

So he has a single major disability. Lucky him.

Classic.

What's your point, caller?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why the vitriol??
Do you always attempt to debate using insults rather than answers?

Only when it's apparent that the person I'm corresponding with has already made up their mind.

I have asked a few simple questions and given one example of someone who could quite legitimately claim benfits due to his disability but chooses not to, and get back insults in return.

No, you also got answers.

If you wish to have you opinions accepted perhaps you may want to reflect on your presentation.

Why would I want my opinions accepted? I'm not participating in a popularity contest.

Avoiding answering the questions put and relying on insults doesn't really advance your argument much.

You'll find that I did answer your questions.
If that is, you bothered to read my replies properly.

Can I attempt another simple question for you?

2.6 million IB claimants now, as opposed to how many 10 years ago?

2.3 million (according to the DWP's own figures for claimants, but current figures include SDA claims too, which they didn't 10 years ago.
The fact is claims for IB have been decreasing for at least the last 5 years, and this will possibly speed up as many of the people "passported" onto Invalidity Benefit" by that wonderful Mrs Thatcher reach retirement age and are shucked off of IB and get their old age pension.
But hey, this stuff hardly ever gets in the press, and when it does it's ignored because it doesn't conform to simplistic prejudices and assumptions by held by people who project their own meanness of spirit and deceit onto everyone else.

Everyone of which are genuine claimants and unable to work in any capacity ................

Have I claimed that?
Nope.
So don't put words in my mouth, Dennis.
There's a fringe of fraudulent claimants. That's an accepted fact, but the reality of 10 years-worth of hard work by the DWP and their predecessor is that the fraud rate for IB is less than a single percent of the claimant population. That's why you get big noises made about individual cases, but never find the DWP's investigation teams turning over consistent fraud.

You wouldn't know that to read the papers or listen to the pundits though.

Oh, and just so you don't feel left out and un-insulted, go piss up a rope, you shonky twat.

 

[trevhagl]

Sorry. But that makes no sense whatever.

Was just trying to find out why you are so bitter towards the vulnerable, what is it that makes you that way?

 

[trevhagl]

My little story.........

For the first time in 15 years i found myself out of work a few weeks ago. The previous week to being unemployed I'd applied for a job, been for interview and had waited for a reply. Because of this I didn't sign-on straight away, i thought I could well get the job and even if I didn't that i'd be able to backdate my claim. Which is where my problems began.....

By Thursday of the week of my unemployment, i'd still not heard anything about my potential job, so i rang up the Job Centre and completed a 55 minute claim over phone and then went for an interview the next Wednesday. By the time the interview came round i'd been told i didn't have the job i'd applied for but I had found some more temporary work. Therefore id only be claiming for 5 days.

I explained this at the job centre at my interview and was told that i should have claimed straight away and the only excuses accepted for not claiming were sickness and attendance of funerals. Therefore my own reason, that of trying to find work and not make a claim, would most likely not be accepted. Besides that there is also a 3 day(?) period of first being unemployed where you can't claim, so my own would only be for 2 days anyway.

This morning i was told i would not get any money due to not registering unemployed immediately. Ironically, my reason of looking for work and thus avoiding signing on, and giving a genuine reason for not doing so (rather than claiming my dog died or that i had flu) cost me the claim.

Is it any wonder people swindle the system?

This is absolutely disgusting. I know a few people who have waited until their money nearly runs out before signing on....they just can't be bothered with the hassle and hope to get a job...then realise there are no god jobs on offer.

 

[jiggajagga]

...then realise there are no god jobs on offer.

There are no God jobs mate! Him upstairs has cornered the market!!

 

[Barking_Mad]

Had similar experiences to that. End up in agency work, being called when necessary and having large gaps in between makes the whole process a nightmare.

Bank just stung me for £60 for going OD, (council tax went out).

2 months behind on my rent, that's another £800.

Someone pass me a noose.

 

[_angel_]

Bank just stung me for £60 for going OD, (council tax went out).

2 months behind on my rent, that's another £800.

Someone pass me a noose.

You should be able to claim housing and council tax benefit until you get a job.

 

[jiggajagga]

You should be able to claim housing and council tax benefit until you get a job.

The trouble is mate that we have become so selfish, self absorbed and about 'me' that community is dead and no one give a fuck about your troubles mate!

Its becoming a sad world and will be a lot sadder when the welfare state is put to rest by this and the next government if they have their way.

 

[Barking_Mad]

You should be able to claim housing and council tax benefit until you get a job.

Maybe you didnt see my first post on the previous page........I was unemployed for just 5 days but they won't pay out because i chose not to sign on immediately - i was waiting for the outcome of a job interview. They only accept illness and funerals as a reason for not signing on from the the day you are unemployed.

I'd have been better off sat on my arse for 3 weeks.

 

[tbaldwin]

What's your point, caller?

Saying lucky him was a bit silly dont you think?

 

[tbaldwin]

The TRUTH is too big a word to use so lightly. Infact you have posted your opinions NOT the truth.

A) Might be the best we have got at the minute, we don't need to all agree, now and today, what we want in its place. That can emerge through struggle.
B) No, it is too hard. You think its easy cos you haven't signed on for incapacity benefit and/or been genuinely worried.
C) Well stop agreeing with the right then.
D) Well stop whipping up those fears then.
E) So what?
F) No - you have no evidence for that, and i think it is wrong. The disabled WILL NOT be better off in temp McJobs on Minimum wage.
G) Soooo not absolutely true, in a few cases perhaps, but again you have no evidence.
H) Sorry, but that statement is not true - it is your wishful thinking.

A You think the best we can is argue for the status quo? Perhaps thats cos your quite conservative at heart eh.
B WRONG.
C I dont.
D Im not
E Worth pointing out that benefit fraud etc exists and annoys people and yes the media may whip things up from time to time but that does not mean that is the only problem.
F What evidence were you thinking of do you want me to do a survey of everybody who was on IB and has gone on to a job or something. Personally i know a lot of people who have and they seem a lot happier.
G Like i said i think at heart your politics are quite conservative. Anybody who thinks that Doctors should decide who can and cant work is a bit of a plonker in my view.
H You reckon?