Post-exit immigration policy - what should it be?

[Manter]

means that systemic risk lodged in a post brexit UK financial insitution should be viewed as european risk rather than soley brit risk- where it could feasibly be in a lesss tighly supervised grey area. i spose

Almost exactly the opposite of that, especially considering who he is

 

[not-bono-ever]

Well yes - my response was not neutral really was it. Not sure how this will work out if the idea of a North Sea Singapore comes to fruition

 

[BigMoaner]

(((Brian)))

this is nonsense. I know some called Brian and his moving to sittingbourne. I don't know where you get this shit from.

 

[treelover]

View attachment 98963

Do you have a link for that, when was it done, tx

 

[Old Spark]

Why? Why can't we pick our own fucking fruit and veg?

We can but supermarkets are intensely competitive on price so consumers like the cheapness which require very low wages .Not saying that some of our unemployed wouldnt do it ,especially in those areas which have that tradition,but nowhere not enough to put food on your table.

So reckon its a cert to carry on under some work permit system which means workers will go home at the end of their contract (many do now).

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

We tried that. No UK citizen wants to pick veg at a price that allows us to pay we are willing to pay for veg.

So if wages were a little higher and the price of fruit veg went up, no one would eat fruit and veg anymore?

 

[rich!]

So if wages were a little higher and the price of fruit veg went up, no one would eat fruit and veg anymore?

The market structure is weirdly broken. There's currently no way to send a price signal through the two chokepoints in it. The main issue is that there are prices people will buy stuff and prices they won't. From memory more than £2 for a punnet of fruit doesn't work, for example.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The market structure is weirdly broken. There's currently no way to send a price signal through the two chokepoints in it. The main issue is that there are prices people will buy stuff and prices they won't. From memory more than £2 for a punnet of fruit doesn't work, for example.

I'm not familiar with the precise details of the fruit and veg market, sorry. What do you mean by checkpoints?

 

[rich!]

I'm not familiar with the precise details of the fruit and veg market, sorry. What do you mean by checkpoints?

Chokepoints. There are two significant bottlenecks in the form of the small number of supermarkets and the small number of grower organisations. E.g. most soft fruit goes through one of about 5 companies...

 

[CrabbedOne]

CBI sets immigration policy then. Just without the political cover they currently have.

Too Canadian! You'll be suggesting socialised medicine and a corrupt serves of easily mounted policemen next.

 

[The39thStep]

Do you have a link for that, when was it done, tx

It was on Mathew Goodwins Twitter feed , there was another interesting graph as well.

 

[The39thStep]

We can but supermarkets are intensely competitive on price so consumers like the cheapness which require very low wages .Not saying that some of our unemployed wouldnt do it ,especially in those areas which have that tradition,but nowhere not enough to put food on your table.

So reckon its a cert to carry on under some work permit system which means workers will go home at the end of their contract (many do now).

We tried that. No UK citizen wants to pick veg at a price that allows us to pay we are willing to pay for veg.

Are either of you suggesting that current veg pickers aren't paid the minimum wage ?

 

[rich!]

Are either of you suggesting that current veg pickers aren't paid the minimum wage ?

Agricultural minimum wage is lower than the normal one. Because.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

So freedom of movement = freedom?

Obviously not. Freedom incorporates freedom of movement. Without it we are not free. It is a component not an equivalent.

 

[The39thStep]

Agricultural minimum wage is lower than the normal one. Because.

Explain a little more please

 

[rich!]

Explain a little more please

For some reason it's seen as acceptable that the minimum wage for agricultural workers is set significantly lower than that for any other worker. Plus, many workers are paid on a piece rate rather than by the hour. The net effect is that wages in the sector are very low because they always have been. Being a farm worker is a script for grinding poverty. (Being a farm *manager* isn't)

UK customers are locked into a supermarket model where fruit and veg is very cheap. Short of buying it directly at farmers markets &c, there are few to no ways out of this. So we have a sector with depressed wages dependent on seasonal agricultural workers.

Attempts to get UK citizens to work on farms have pretty uniformly failed.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

For some reason it's seen as acceptable that the minimum wage for agricultural workers is set significantly lower than that for any other worker. Plus, many workers are paid on a piece rate rather than by the hour. The net effect is that wages in the sector are very low because they always have been. Being a farm worker is a script for grinding poverty. (Being a farm *manager* isn't)

UK customers are locked into a supermarket model where fruit and veg is very cheap. Short of buying it directly at farmers markets &c, there are few to no ways out of this. So we have a sector with depressed wages dependent on seasonal agricultural workers.

Attempts to get UK citizens to work on farms have pretty uniformly failed.

Interesting conversation this. I take it you work in that sector?

 

[rich!]

Interesting conversation this. I take it you work in that sector?

We did some R&D work around using tech to address the problem. I acquire domain expertise the way other people acquire tattoos.

 

[The39thStep]

For some reason it's seen as acceptable that the minimum wage for agricultural workers is set significantly lower than that for any other worker. Plus, many workers are paid on a piece rate rather than by the hour. The net effect is that wages in the sector are very low because they always have been. Being a farm worker is a script for grinding poverty. (Being a farm *manager* isn't)

UK customers are locked into a supermarket model where fruit and veg is very cheap. Short of buying it directly at farmers markets &c, there are few to no ways out of this. So we have a sector with depressed wages dependent on seasonal agricultural workers.

Attempts to get UK citizens to work on farms have pretty uniformly failed.

Thanks Rich! So what's the difference in the minimum wage levels ?

 

[rich!]

Thanks Rich! So what's the difference in the minimum wage levels ?

The National Minimum Wage and Living Wage | nidirect

 

[The39thStep]

The National Minimum Wage and Living Wage | nidirect

Doesn't it say that no agricultural worker should be paid less than the national minimum wage?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Doesn't it say that no agricultural worker should be paid less than the national minimum wage?

Yes seems to be the opposite to what's being suggested:

Agricultural workers covered by agricultural wages laws are entitled to the Agricultural Minimum Wage rather than the NMW. No agricultural worker can be paid less than the NMW. Some agricultural workers must be paid more than the NMW because there is a higher Agricultural Minimum Wage rate.

 

[rich!]

Hm. I know that under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme typically Eastern European workers were employed, and they were exempt from the minimum wages rules. I suspect there are a few other categories that are exempt, too.

The conversations I have had in the past with people working in this area led me to believe wages are artificially depressed by a variety of means, but I'd be pleased if it was no longer true...

 

[crossthebreeze]

Hm. I know that under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme typically Eastern European workers were employed, and they were exempt from the minimum wages rules. I suspect there are a few other categories that are exempt, too.
The conversations I have had in the past with people working in this area led me to believe wages are artificially depressed by a variety of means, but I'd be pleased if it was no longer true...

SAWS closed in 2013 as full freedom of movement of labour within EU including Romania and Bulgaria was implemented.
Low pay is still an issue - with big fees taken for transport to the farms, poor-quality tied accommodation, etc.
The danger post-brexit is that a SAWS-type scheme is implemented again and exempted from NMW.

At the moment foreign (i think non-eu) seafaring workers recruited abroad and working in british waters don't have to be paid minimum wage - so there's people working in the north sea oil industry earning less than £2 per hour and on ferries earning £4 per hour.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Free ebook application guides for EU citizens | Migrants' Rights Network (MRN)

barrister produces some info in a range of .pdf's for those who may wish to pursue residency in the UK. I think these are updated regularly.

Why you would want to stay in this xenophobic shithole of a country is another discussion of course .....

 

[ska invita]

One of those moments when your mouth fills with spit
Britain will aim for freedom of movement deal with Australia

CANZUK white and English speaking migration policy, the dream comes closer

Scrap the spit, raise to vomit

 

[Poi E]

First demand from India and Chinese negotiators will be visas. Watch the British squirm.

Christ, imagining the foreign office twits with their background of social apartheid trying to figure their way in a modern world. Fuck me.

 

[ska invita]

First demand from India and Chinese negotiators will be visas. Watch the British squirm.

Was visas.
May in the immediate aftermath of the referendum went to India

told price of a trade deal was visas and that the trade deal would take a decade to make happen

random link
Visa leniency central to post-Brexit trade with India: UK business body

The queen of kicking out foreigners was never going to go for that

 

[Poi E]

Ah, so no FTA with India or China. Hmm. Seeing as the UK couldn't make a buck once the captive colonial markets went, things might not be looking rosy.

Took NZ decades to replace the trading relations with the UK after 1973. Good laughs all round between the Aussies and Kiwis as HMG comes begging. A really, really satisfying moment for those in ex empire.

 

[Poi E]

Liz Truss rows back on Australia freedom of movement claim

Oops! Fuckwit gets it wrong and is told off for giving the negotiating game away. They're not good at this negotiating thing.

TBF Truss did make the right racist dog whistle noises when visiting Wellington but then the Kiwi trade minister started talking about the tariff rate quota split post Brexit and how NZ must not be disadvantaged in a deal. This confused the British representative.