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Petition to request parliament review LTNs

hash tag said:
You will solve the problem easily by cutting down the number of cars on the streets and the number of unnecessary journeys being made.
Somewhere in the region of 60% of all car journeys are less than 2 miles; so easily walkable. Not forgetting that if you live in London
there is an abundance of cheap public transport. Only yesterday I went shopping on foot The distance was in the region of 4 miles.
It wasn't difficult, even for me.
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I agree that congestion could be reduced by various measures but I don't think these wide area LTNs help hence why I signed the petition as the local councils are imposing them and ignoring all of the negative issues they are causing.

I'd disagree that all journeys less than 2 miles could easily be walked as not all people can walk 2 miles or cycle or be completed using public transport - here are some reasons why those people traveling short distances may need to use a car

1. Disability is not always visible nor is it always recorded as such in the eyes of the authorities so those people may need to use a motor vehicle just like the officially disabled that you talk of
2. Illness or infirmity or phobia or any number of other conditions may make it difficult if not impossible for someone to be able to use public transport
3. Covid/viruses - some people may still be shielding and need to stay off public transport for health reasons
4. Late night shift workers - public transport does not run everywhere 24/7 so they may need to use a motor vehicle to get to work ad back home
5. Long circuitous routes from one side of London to the other are not always served well by public transport so people might need to use a motor vehicle instead to avoid having to spend half their day travelling to work
6. Safety - many people - especially women do not want to walk or use public transport late at night nor have to walk alone from the main roads at the end of the bus/tube/train route to their homes
7. Cab fares are not cheap and if someone regularly needs to get to/from work at an unsociable time the cost of a long cab ride may well be more than the cost of running a motor vehicle
8. Antisocial behaviour / crime / violence / safety on public transport is often a problem especially late at night that many people would not want to encounter it
9. Family, friends or colleagues giving someone a lift to save money - we are in a cost of living crisis and people may not be able to afford to pay for public transport so take the offer of a lift or share the cost of motor vehicle travel with someone else
10. Time poor people who need to move at a faster pace than might be the case using public transport may need to use a motor vehicle to complete those journeys in the limited time they have to complete them 11. Mothers with babies and/or toddlers and/or older children needing to complete day to day tasks may need to use a motor vehicle to provide safe travel for their children to appointments or shopping trips, etc

We can't base transport policies on what hash tag is capable of doing - it has to be based on what is reasonable and what is feasible for a wide variety of people.
 
ianarmstrong said:
I agree that congestion could be reduced by various measures but I don't think these wide area LTNs help hence why I signed the petition as the local councils are imposing them and ignoring all of the negative issues they are causing.

I'd disagree that all journeys less than 2 miles could easily be walked as not all people can walk 2 miles or cycle or be completed using public transport - here are some reasons why those people traveling short distances may need to use a car

1. Disability is not always visible nor is it always recorded as such in the eyes of the authorities so those people may need to use a motor vehicle just like the officially disabled that you talk of
2. Illness or infirmity or phobia or any number of other conditions may make it difficult if not impossible for someone to be able to use public transport
3. Covid/viruses - some people may still be shielding and need to stay off public transport for health reasons
4. Late night shift workers - public transport does not run everywhere 24/7 so they may need to use a motor vehicle to get to work ad back home
5. Long circuitous routes from one side of London to the other are not always served well by public transport so people might need to use a motor vehicle instead to avoid having to spend half their day travelling to work
6. Safety - many people - especially women do not want to walk or use public transport late at night nor have to walk alone from the main roads at the end of the bus/tube/train route to their homes
7. Cab fares are not cheap and if someone regularly needs to get to/from work at an unsociable time the cost of a long cab ride may well be more than the cost of running a motor vehicle
8. Antisocial behaviour / crime / violence / safety on public transport is often a problem especially late at night that many people would not want to encounter it
9. Family, friends or colleagues giving someone a lift to save money - we are in a cost of living crisis and people may not be able to afford to pay for public transport so take the offer of a lift or share the cost of motor vehicle travel with someone else
10. Time poor people who need to move at a faster pace than might be the case using public transport may need to use a motor vehicle to complete those journeys in the limited time they have to complete them 11. Mothers with babies and/or toddlers and/or older children needing to complete day to day tasks may need to use a motor vehicle to provide safe travel for their children to appointments or shopping trips, etc

We can't base transport policies on what hash tag is capable of doing - it has to be based on what is reasonable and what is feasible for a wide variety of people.
Click to expand...
I did not say everyone could walk or use a bike but most could. I am a shift worker. I do work to and from work. Fwiw I also have a hidden disability which I have spoken freely about on these forums.
How about if a property does not have an off road parking space, it is limited to just one on road parking space for a small car, not the tractors.
 
teuchter said:
So you are OK with LTN-type interventions if they are relatively small? I assume when you mean small, you mean the area enclosed by what effectively become the "boundary roads"?

Can you give any examples in the Brixton area of LTN-type interventions which are localised enough that you think they don't have negative effects?
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Baytree Rd was changed before the covid pandemic to block access from Brixton Hill so that reduced the through traffic on one road with minimal impact as the main people affected would be locals or people with local knowledge of that road.

I remember the time before Strathleven Rd/Lambert Rd was blocked but again the main people affected would be locals or people with local knowledge of that road.

I think the one way section on Lyham Rd up to Crescent Lane was added after that and that had minimal impact.
 
ianarmstrong said:
Click to expand...

Nope, that's just a repeat of the claim that their data is cherry picked or otherwise poor quality.

You haven't posted anything to back up your claim that

"[LTN's] actually concentrate the traffic on certain residential roads which is not fare to the people who live or walk or work or go to school there - they also cause vehicles to have to drive longer distances and get caught up in increased congestion all of which is not great for the carbon footprint but then no one is monitoring that so there is no data on what LTNs do in that regard"
 
ianarmstrong said:
Baytree Rd was changed before the covid pandemic to block access from Brixton Hill so that reduced the through traffic on one road with minimal impact as the main people affected would be locals or people with local knowledge of that road.

I remember the time before Strathleven Rd/Lambert Rd was blocked but again the main people affected would be locals or people with local knowledge of that road.

I think the one way section on Lyham Rd up to Crescent Lane was added after that and that had minimal impact.
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When Lambeth blocked the right turn up Brixton Hill the gossip was that a couple of Lambeth Council Honchos lived there. Can't remember who now.
 
hash tag said:
I did not say everyone could walk or use a bike but most could. I am a shift worker. I do work to and from work. Fwiw I also have a hidden disability which I have spoken freely about on these forums.
How about if a property does not have an off road parking space, it is limited to just one on road parking space for a small car, not the tractors.
Click to expand...
It would be good to know more of those 60% of low mileage journeys to understand how many of them are feasibly convertible to walking or cycling as otherwise there is an assumption that they all can be converted and the people are lazy drivers which may not appropriate for many of them.

Last night I was at the petrol station at Wandsworth Bridge and as per usual there was a guy in motor bike attire picking up a delivery to take to a local resident - 2 large bars of Cadbury’s milk chocolate, two large packets of Doritos and a carton of grapes was the order - I left the garage at the same time as the biker and he drove down York Rd and turned off into Juniper Drive where a 2 bed flat can cost around £3k a month to rent - I see this sort of thing all over London - the corner shops even have mopeds turning up to collect deliveries at all times of the day and night - this ordering stuff online has gotten out of control and probably accounts for many of those local journeys
 
belboid said:
Nope, that's just a repeat of the claim that their data is cherry picked or otherwise poor quality.

You haven't posted anything to back up your claim that

"[LTN's] actually concentrate the traffic on certain residential roads which is not fare to the people who live or walk or work or go to school there - they also cause vehicles to have to drive longer distances and get caught up in increased congestion all of which is not great for the carbon footprint but then no one is monitoring that so there is no data on what LTNs do in that regard"
Click to expand...
I did but you don't accept what was posted as enough to satisfy you
 
ianarmstrong said:
I did but you don't accept what was posted as enough to satisfy you
Click to expand...
You really haven't. You've just posted up other things to claim deficiencies in the 'official' data and then make the same claims as you, but they don't provide the data to back those claims up.
 
Mr.Bishie said:
The reality is, lots of LTN’s are fucking shite.
Click to expand...

I haven't looked in to the details of how particular LTNs work. I'd happily believe some were poorly designed. But there are poorly designed car-based traffic systems all over the place and they don't whip people into such a frenzy because we're just used to them.

There's a whole area of my city that's cut off from everything else by major roads on three sides and the river on the fourth. There's only one major junction you can use to get there and it's a complete nightmare, habitually gridlocked to the point it can take you 20 minutes to move a quarter of a mile. There are no campaign groups about it. No gammons are carpet-bombing local newspaper comment threads on completely unrelated news stories about it. There are always cars, always traffic. That's just the way it is.

One day the way it is will be no, you can't drive everywhere, no you can't store three cars and a camper van on a public highway indefinitely and for free. And nobody will quite believe how absurd it used to be.
 
domestos said:
When Lambeth blocked the right turn up Brixton Hill the gossip was that a couple of Lambeth Council Honchos lived there. Can't remember who now.
Click to expand...
This is why this whole thing has been ripe for takeover by the big boy conspiracists, because it's been conspiracies from day one.

It turns out that people live inside a scheme that encloses a whole bunch of residential streets. Must be a stitch-up.
 
ianarmstrong said:
Baytree Rd was changed before the covid pandemic to block access from Brixton Hill so that reduced the through traffic on one road with minimal impact as the main people affected would be locals or people with local knowledge of that road.

I remember the time before Strathleven Rd/Lambert Rd was blocked but again the main people affected would be locals or people with local knowledge of that road.
Click to expand...

Let's just focus on the blocks on Baytree Rd and Strathleven Rd because they both broadly address the same thing which is stopping cut-throughs from Brixton Hill N-bound to Acre Lane W-bound.

On my diagram, the green lines are the blocked cut-throughs and the red lines are the routes the displaced traffic must take instead. Let me know if you disagree.

So, what's illustrated here, the red traffic displaced onto Brixton Hill and Acre Lane and adding air pollution to those streets which would otherwise be elsewhere, this you are basically Ok with and you don't want this to be reviewed or altered, is that right?


Screenshot 2023-02-27 at 19.55.45.jpg
 
At the time it was taken as read, there was none of this weird tribalism. It's about 10 years ago so I can't remember the names. Alex Holland perhaps, he's mentioned on Brixton Blog. It also mentions that 20 trees could also be planted. I wonder if they were?
 
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ianarmstrong said:
It would be good to know more of those 60% of low mileage journeys to understand how many of them are feasibly convertible to walking or cycling as otherwise there is an assumption that they all can be converted and the people are lazy drivers which may not appropriate for many of them.

Last night I was at the petrol station at Wandsworth Bridge and as per usual there was a guy in motor bike attire picking up a delivery to take to a local resident - 2 large bars of Cadbury’s milk chocolate, two large packets of Doritos and a carton of grapes was the order - I left the garage at the same time as the biker and he drove down York Rd and turned off into Juniper Drive where a 2 bed flat can cost around £3k a month to rent - I see this sort of thing all over London - the corner shops even have mopeds turning up to collect deliveries at all times of the day and night - this ordering stuff online has gotten out of control and probably accounts for many of those local journeys
Click to expand...
This indirectly proves my point. It's what, 200 steps from the petrol station to those flats. Not forgetting, there is a shop underneath the flats at juniper drive. It will open long hours and most certainly sell chocolate, in which case the people just needed to use the lift both ways. My 85 year old mother in law could have managed that.
 
ianarmstrong said:
The older road closures were very much smaller in scale and the impact they had was much more localised and less negative - I've seen lots of roads closed over the years which would fall into the category of an LTN-type interventions so I understand what they look like and experienced the impact they had on the local traffic flow - those are very different to the current wave of LTNs which cover a much wider area and have a much more significant impact on all sorts of things
Click to expand...
So you can see they work, because they have in the past?
 
teuchter said:
Let's just focus on the blocks on Baytree Rd and Strathleven Rd because they both broadly address the same thing which is stopping cut-throughs from Brixton Hill N-bound to Acre Lane W-bound.

On my diagram, the green lines are the blocked cut-throughs and the red lines are the routes the displaced traffic must take instead. Let me know if you disagree.

So, what's illustrated here, the red traffic displaced onto Brixton Hill and Acre Lane and adding air pollution to those streets which would otherwise be elsewhere, this you are basically Ok with and you don't want this to be reviewed or altered, is that right?


View attachment 364844
Click to expand...
I'd rather we left the side streets alone and concentrated on how to reduce traffic on the main roads as moving traffic off the side streets does not help the congestion on the main roads it just makes it worse and those vehicles being blocked from using the side streets (which are not as many as DFT data claimed previously) are now driving longer routes using more fuel and generating more pollution

Have a watch of of this and it is all explained how unjust LTNs are

 
hash tag said:
This indirectly proves my point. It's what, 200 steps from the petrol station to those flats. Not forgetting, there is a shop underneath the flats at juniper drive. It will open long hours and most certainly sell chocolate, in which case the people just needed to use the lift both ways. My 85 year old mother in law could have managed that.
Click to expand...
So I'm saying these are journeys that never used to happen until internet delivery companies popped up but it is the people living in the more affluent places that are generating this sort of traffic and if you accept that you are likely to be more affluent if you live on side street than if you live on a boundary/main road then you can see that LTNs force these delivery vehicles join the congestion and pollution generation on the boundary/main roads where the less affluent people are more likely to live - that is not socially just.

But as I also said it would be good to know how many of the 60% of short journeys could feasibly be converted to active travel modes - are these delivery journeys included or not - I think not but how many of those 60% of journeys map onto scenarios like these below which I would say are in general not feasibly or easily or appropriately to convertible to active travel?

1. Disability is not always visible nor is it always recorded as such in the eyes of the authorities so those people may need to use a motor vehicle just like the officially disabled that you talk of
2. Illness or infirmity or phobia or any number of other conditions may make it difficult if not impossible for someone to be able to use public transport
3. Covid/viruses - some people may still be shielding and need to stay off public transport for health reasons
4. Late night shift workers - public transport does not run everywhere 24/7 so they may need to use a motor vehicle to get to work ad back home
5. Long circuitous routes from one side of London to the other are not always served well by public transport so people might need to use a motor vehicle instead to avoid having to spend half their day travelling to work
6. Safety - many people - especially women do not want to walk or use public transport late at night nor have to walk alone from the main roads at the end of the bus/tube/train route to their homes
7. Cab fares are not cheap and if someone regularly needs to get to/from work at an unsociable time the cost of a long cab ride may well be more than the cost of running a motor vehicle
8. Antisocial behaviour / crime / violence / safety on public transport is often a problem especially late at night that many people would not want to encounter it
9. Family, friends or colleagues giving someone a lift to save money - we are in a cost of living crisis and people may not be able to afford to pay for public transport so take the offer of a lift or share the cost of motor vehicle travel with someone else
10. Time poor people who need to move at a faster pace than might be the case using public transport may need to use a motor vehicle to complete those journeys in the limited time they have to complete them
11. Mothers with babies and/or toddlers and/or older children needing to complete day to day tasks may need to use a motor vehicle to provide safe travel for their children to appointments or shopping trips, etc
 
ianarmstrong said:
So I'm saying these are journeys that never used to happen until internet delivery companies popped up but it is the people living in the more affluent places that are generating this sort of traffic and if you accept that you are likely to be more affluent if you live on side street than if you live on a boundary/main road then you can see that LTNs force these delivery vehicles join the congestion and pollution generation on the boundary/main roads where the less affluent people are more likely to live - that is not socially just.

But as I also said it would be good to know how many of the 60% of short journeys could feasibly be converted to active travel modes - are these delivery journeys included or not - I think not but how many of those 60% of journeys map onto scenarios like these below which I would say are in general not feasibly or easily or appropriately to convertible to active travel?

1. Disability is not always visible nor is it always recorded as such in the eyes of the authorities so those people may need to use a motor vehicle just like the officially disabled that you talk of
2. Illness or infirmity or phobia or any number of other conditions may make it difficult if not impossible for someone to be able to use public transport
3. Covid/viruses - some people may still be shielding and need to stay off public transport for health reasons
4. Late night shift workers - public transport does not run everywhere 24/7 so they may need to use a motor vehicle to get to work ad back home
5. Long circuitous routes from one side of London to the other are not always served well by public transport so people might need to use a motor vehicle instead to avoid having to spend half their day travelling to work
6. Safety - many people - especially women do not want to walk or use public transport late at night nor have to walk alone from the main roads at the end of the bus/tube/train route to their homes
7. Cab fares are not cheap and if someone regularly needs to get to/from work at an unsociable time the cost of a long cab ride may well be more than the cost of running a motor vehicle
8. Antisocial behaviour / crime / violence / safety on public transport is often a problem especially late at night that many people would not want to encounter it
9. Family, friends or colleagues giving someone a lift to save money - we are in a cost of living crisis and people may not be able to afford to pay for public transport so take the offer of a lift or share the cost of motor vehicle travel with someone else
10. Time poor people who need to move at a faster pace than might be the case using public transport may need to use a motor vehicle to complete those journeys in the limited time they have to complete them
11. Mothers with babies and/or toddlers and/or older children needing to complete day to day tasks may need to use a motor vehicle to provide safe travel for their children to appointments or shopping trips, etc
Click to expand...
Most of this you have already said. Govt Stats on short journeys dating 2016 are readily available.
 
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