people who voted tory

[Dandred]

not as many as you may believe. I saw some figures just a few months ago showing that even swathes of the tory vote either don't believe it or don't believe it has recovered for them.

They didn't believe when they voted?

Looks like you and Brand are fucked.

 

[Pickman's model]

They didn't believe when they voted?

Looks like you and Brand are fucked.

you're not fucked though, are you.

 

[DotCommunist]

They didn't believe when they voted?

Looks like you and Brand are fucked.

looks like you're still in tears from the beasting you got yesterday

 

[brogdale]

They didn't believe when they voted?

Looks like you and Brand are fucked.

If the Ashcroft post-polling has credibility...here are his actual findings:-

so that's very nearly 3/4 respondents (off all party support) agreeing with a statement that begins with... "I am not feeling the benefits of an economic recovery..."

 

[Mr Retro]

I spoke to two colleagues who voted for them and they both gave Ed Miliband as a reason, and then the economy. So it's partially about charisma of the leaders, but in the absence of Cameron's charisma, it's not the whole picture - they trust the Tories more with the economy.

I visited a friend on Saturday and he and his wife voted Conservative. With their 5 month old son they think they will be better off as a family under the Tories.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If the Ashcroft post-polling has credibility...here are his actual findings:-

so that's very nearly 3/4 respondents (off all party support) agreeing with a statement that begins with... "I am not feeling the benefits of an economic recovery..."

And half of all tory voters. Interesting. Indicates to me that this was an election that wasn't already all but decided due to economic reasons. Instead, that ridiculous notion that the tories are the safe pair of hands with the economy has won out again, despite all the evidence from the past that they are no such thing.

 

[nino_savatte]

And half of all tory voters. Interesting. Indicates to me that this was an election that wasn't already all but decided due to economic reasons. Instead, that ridiculous notion that the tories are the safe pair of hands with the economy has won out again, despite all the evidence from the past that they are no such thing.

Few people feel able to interrogate the Tories' claims to economic competence, because they believe they are unqualified to pass judgement on economic matters or because they are presented with no opposing position to the neoliberal consensus. They've internalised the Tories' economic mumbo-jumbo about deficit (often used by the Tories interchangeably with the word 'debt') reduction and repeat it when prompted in vox pop interviews and so on. Ironically, Gidiot isn't even an economist and that wee detail appears to have escaped the attention of the vox pop folk.

 

[Barking_Mad]

LOL. Poor Desmond.

Desmond Swayne‏@DesmondSwayne
No calls. Arrived DFID: Pass didn't work; All my stuff packed in boxes. The End?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Feel free to wade in and tell Desmond how sorry you feel for him.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Few people feel able to interrogate the Tories' claims to economic competence, because they believe they are unqualified to pass judgement on economic matters or because they are presented with no opposing position to the neoliberal consensus. They've internalised the Tories' economic mumbo-jumbo about deficit (often used by the Tories interchangeably with the word 'debt') reduction and repeat it when prompted in vox pop interviews and so on.

Yeah, but this has been going on for decades. Thatcher fucked the UK economy good and proper, but kept getting elected partly on the myth of economic competence.

 

[BigTom]

I think the lack of opposing position is massively important, how often do you get people on TV/RAdio/etc challenging the household economics analogy, credit card bullshit - very rare, and when it is, usually it's not a politician or economist, it's the cultural person on BBCQT, a comedian (Mark STeel) or poet (Benjamin Zepheniah) or someone like that, voices like Paul Krugman's or that aussie economist get sidelined and there's not really anyone politically who is doing it, Green party don't get represented and when they do, Natalie Bennett fucks it all up. It's not even that complicated a message to put forward, that by following keynesian policies we can invest in our economy for jobs & growth, creating a surplus that pays off the deficit in time, whilst providing affordable housing, renewable energy and other things we really need.

Very few people hanging the tories on their deficit reduction either, in 2010 promised it'd be cleared by now, only got halfway, but still freely allowed to claim that they had a massively successful deficit reduction program.

With the economy recovery I think there's a lot about more people in employment, so people think the economy must be improving, but rarely looking below the headline to see the part time/zero hours jobs, and the self-unemployment that makes up the vast bulk of new "jobs"... doesn't touch them but they feel like things must be getting better.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yeah, but this has been going on for decades. Thatcher fucked the UK economy good and proper, but kept getting elected partly on the myth of economic competence.

Yes, that's true, so what does that tell us? It tells us that we need to find another way to put these arguments across. And, no, I don't have a solution to offer at this moment in time.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think the lack of opposing position is massively important, how often do you get people on TV/RAdio/etc challenging the household economics analogy, credit card bullshit - very rare, and when it is, usually it's not a politician or economist, it's the cultural person on BBCQT, a comedian (Mark STeel) or poet (Benjamin Zepheniah) or someone like that, voices like Paul Krugman's or that aussie economist get sidelined and there's not really anyone politically who is doing it, Green party don't get represented and when they do, Natalie Bennett fucks it all up. It's not even that complicated a message to put forward, that by following keynesian policies we can invest in our economy for jobs & growth, creating a surplus that pays off the deficit in time, whilst providing affordable housing, renewable energy and other things we really need.

Very few people hanging the tories on their deficit reduction either, in 2010 promised it'd be cleared by now, only got halfway, but still freely allowed to claim that they had a massively successful deficit reduction program.

With the economy recovery I think there's a lot about more people in employment, so people think the economy must be improving, but rarely looking below the headline to see the part time/zero hours jobs, and the self-unemployment that makes up the vast bulk of new "jobs"... doesn't touch them but they feel like things must be getting better.

Perhaps the way to approach this is through culture. Culture is too often regarded as peripheral by hardcore political types. It shouldn't be. Culture is important: it's just as important as politics.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Yeah, but this has been going on for decades. Thatcher fucked the UK economy good and proper, but kept getting elected partly on the myth of economic competence.

Unfortunately myths are more effective than truth. Maybe what the left needs its own myths. What that would entail, and how they would become ingrained in society is another thing.

 

[BigTom]

Perhaps the way to approach this is through culture. Culture is too often regarded as peripheral by hardcore political types. It shouldn't be. Culture is important: it's just as important as politics.

Problem is that economic messages put forward but cultural types tend to get dismissed by people, because what does a comedian or writer know about economics, certainly not as much as the chancellor of the exchequer (who got a 2:2 in history, therefore obviously better qualified)

 

[brogdale]

Few people feel able to interrogate the Tories' claims to economic competence, because they believe they are unqualified to pass judgement on economic matters or because they are presented with no opposing position to the neoliberal consensus. They've internalised the Tories' economic mumbo-jumbo about deficit (often used by the Tories interchangeably with the word 'debt') reduction and repeat it when prompted in vox pop interviews and so on. Ironically, Gidiot isn't even an economist and that wee detail appears to have escaped the attention of the vox pop folk.

Yes, absolutely.

Amongst many other instances, the Leeds QT again demonstrated the enduring effectiveness of the vermin's reductive dissimulation of equating macro-economics with the 'household' economy. It's power lying in its simplicity.

Using the word in its truest meaning, much of the electorate are utterly ignorant and (macro) economically illiterate, and gone are the days when masses of 'ordinary' working class folk would feel empowered and confident enough to argue against the narrative of capital. The reasons for that could probably sustain another dedicated thread, but the evolution away from capital to financialised capital, the erosion of (unionised) 'space' in which to articulate counterpoints, and the credentialisation of society undermining the confidence of 'ordinary' working people must rank as important planks of the vermin's hegemony.

 

[nino_savatte]

Problem is that economic messages put forward but cultural types tend to get dismissed by people, because what does a comedian or writer know about economics, certainly not as much as the chancellor of the exchequer (who got a 2:2 in history, therefore obviously better qualified)

Well, Russell Brand's presence certainly hasn't helped. Most comedians these days are educated... unlike those from the 70s show The Comedians. Some are even better educated (either self-taught or university) than Osborne.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Unfortunately the Credit Crunch moment appears to have passed. Anyone who didn't predict it has no right to call themselves an economics expert, but still they remain centre-stage. Those who did predict it, such as Steve Keen (that Australian bloke), are still sidelined.

 

[treelover]

You have to be optimistic and take the view that youre on the right side, and good will ultimately triumph over evil in the end . Helps sometimes if you're a catholic...blind faith can sustain people

What that march did show was that a lot of people actually cared, that human nature isn't all that bad. And that's a basis for optimism . If there's a will there can well be a way . It's finding that way which is the bugger .

Personally I don't think it will be found in the usual left miasma , or even the labour party . Both have passed their sell by date I reckon . Other avenues need exploring . There needs to be day to day fights and small day to day victories, within communities , both urban and rural . Bus services, youth clubs, crèches...all that stuff . Go to people you've never gone to before, get out of the bubble .
Make the fight a cultural thing . The SNP won by taking the position they were fighting for Scotland's soul...that neo liberalism was a form of savagery the Scottish people found culturally anathema . They didn't need to go far left .
In England there's a patriotic notion concerning the " English sense of fair play" . What's happening s deeply unfair , and that can be spun as unpatriotic as well as morally wrong . That it's alien to what England traditionally stands for ...even if thats a load of bollocks its still worth using . It needs to be made a morally repugnant position within communities . Who also need to be empowered to fight it . To be given confidence, which breeds more confidence .
Hope leads to faith and with faith you can move mountains .

Unite Community is growing, well it was, Unite may have funding difficulties soon.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes, absolutely.

Amongst many other instances, the Leeds QT again demonstrated the enduring effectiveness of the vermin's reductive dissimulation of equating macro-economics with the 'household' economy. It's power lying in its simplicity.

Using the word in its truest meaning, much of the electorate are utterly ignorant and (macro) economically illiterate, and gone are the days when masses of 'ordinary' working class folk would feel empowered and confident enough to argue against the narrative of capital. The reasons for that could probably sustain another dedicated thread, but the evolution away from capital to financialised capital, the erosion of (unionised) 'space' in which to articulate counterpoints, and the credentialisation of society undermining the confidence of 'ordinary' working people must rank as important planks of the vermin's hegemony.

Economics can be seen in a similar light to how the Bible was regarded in the pre-William Tyndale era. In other words, only those who possessed the sacred knowledge and the ability to speak Latin could read it. The peasants couldn't read and so were told what the scriptures said. It was only when the Bible was printed in English (or any other language) that individual interpretations could be made. This threatened the power of the clergy/state to the extent that they executed anyone who advocated translating the Bible into English.

What I'm trying to say is that economics (hardly an ideologically neutral discipline) is the new religion and ordinary folk feel that the subject can only be understood by soi-disant priests of the cult of neoliberalism.

 

[treelover]

You have to be optimistic and take the view that youre on the right side, and good will ultimately triumph over evil in the end . Helps sometimes if you're a catholic...blind faith can sustain people

What that march did show was that a lot of people actually cared, that human nature isn't all that bad. And that's a basis for optimism . If there's a will there can well be a way . It's finding that way which is the bugger .

Personally I don't think it will be found in the usual left miasma , or even the labour party . Both have passed their sell by date I reckon . Other avenues need exploring . There needs to be day to day fights and small day to day victories, within communities , both urban and rural . Bus services, youth clubs, crèches...all that stuff . Go to people you've never gone to before, get out of the bubble .
Make the fight a cultural thing . The SNP won by taking the position they were fighting for Scotland's soul...that neo liberalism was a form of savagery the Scottish people found culturally anathema . They didn't need to go far left .
In England there's a patriotic notion concerning the " English sense of fair play" . What's happening s deeply unfair , and that can be spun as unpatriotic as well as morally wrong . That it's alien to what England traditionally stands for ...even if thats a load of bollocks its still worth using . It needs to be made a morally repugnant position within communities . Who also need to be empowered to fight it . To be given confidence, which breeds more confidence .
Hope leads to faith and with faith you can move mountains .

I'm still convinced a lot of voters, from all parties, are not fully aware of the viciousness of the attacks on the vulnerable, some including Tories, one was interviewed earlier on local radio, does know, and she wasn't happy about it. We should never forget what first NL and more viscerally the Condems have done to the disabled, the poor, the vulnerable is unconsciousable and should always be challenged.

 

[Pickman's model]

Economics can be seen in a similar light to how the Bible was regarded in the pre-William Tyndale era. In other words, only those who possessed the sacred knowledge and the ability to speak Latin could read it. The peasants couldn't read and so were told what the scriptures said. It was only when the Bible was printed in English (or any other language) that individual interpretations could be made. This threatened the power of the clergy/state to the extent that they executed anyone who advocated translating the Bible into English.

what, despite texts like capital being available for almost 150 years? despite economics being taught in schools and colleges up and down the land? despite there being dozens if not hundreds of popular economics books in print and held in publick and academic libraries up and down the land? not to mention the resources freely available online...

 

[treelover]

This, it's something I've felt for a long time and it's not getting any better. I remember going to occupy Bristol and feeling pretty down hearted about it all. Here were these people talking about how 1% of the population have it all wrapped up, how we're going to pay for their trashing of the economy and that 1% will be richer for it and so on and meanwhile what was going on? There were people walking by, people going to work, people coming home from work and taking barely any notice and, in some cases, rolling their eyes. These are the exact people that you need to engage and they were ignoring it. My hunch is because it's this whole sterotypical image of the crusty, dreadlocked lefty wanker that's all too easy to make because it was there right in front of their eyes. There were people hanging around that camp pissed out of their head and falling all over the place in the middle of the afternoon. Why are people walking past going to even bother to want to pay attention to it? Especially when they do read papers who say things like 'Red Ed' and 'unwashed masses,' and when you get people like matey upthread boring on about communist dialectics or that twat I met at the BBC occupation when Israel was bombing Gaza who, when told he might get manhandled by the police if they evict them replied with, in a very patronising way, 'or womanhandled, we're equal ops here' it turns people off. It's very easy for the media to wrap all of this up into a big ball and say 'this is what the left is, this is what you're voting for if you vote labour' sprinkle it with a little fear about tax rises and deals with the SNP and you get an election drubbing.

Of course I'm not saying labour are left but they're painted as being on the left, even the mildest social democratic offerings illicit screams of 'Socialist! Red Ed' and blah blah. The point is fuck labour but you need to engage a broad public. If even the mildest of the mild centre left offerings can't do then what chance does anything further left than that have at the moment?

one of the key things in terms of social movement in the uk, is that they always peter out, why, maybe an element is certainly that the police don't allow them to grow,

 

[Pickman's model]

one of the key things in terms of social movement in the uk, is that they always peter out, why, maybe an element is certainly that the police don't allow them to grow,

everything peters out eventually: the roman empire, the antient pagan religions, the stop the war movement. i don't know that the police are always responsible.

 

[treelover]

This, it's something I've felt for a long time and it's not getting any better. I remember going to occupy Bristol and feeling pretty down hearted about it all. Here were these people talking about how 1% of the population have it all wrapped up, how we're going to pay for their trashing of the economy and that 1% will be richer for it and so on and meanwhile what was going on? There were people walking by, people going to work, people coming home from work and taking barely any notice and, in some cases, rolling their eyes. These are the exact people that you need to engage and they were ignoring it. My hunch is because it's this whole sterotypical image of the crusty, dreadlocked lefty wanker that's all too easy to make because it was there right in front of their eyes. There were people hanging around that camp pissed out of their head and falling all over the place in the middle of the afternoon. Why are people walking past going to even bother to want to pay attention to it? Especially when they do read papers who say things like 'Red Ed' and 'unwashed masses,' and when you get people like matey upthread boring on about communist dialectics or that twat I met at the BBC occupation when Israel was bombing Gaza who, when told he might get manhandled by the police if they evict them replied with, in a very patronising way, 'or womanhandled, we're equal ops here' it turns people off. It's very easy for the media to wrap all of this up into a big ball and say 'this is what the left is, this is what you're voting for if you vote labour' sprinkle it with a little fear about tax rises and deals with the SNP and you get an election drubbing.

Of course I'm not saying labour are left but they're painted as being on the left, even the mildest social democratic offerings illicit screams of 'Socialist! Red Ed' and blah blah. The point is fuck labour but you need to engage a broad public. If even the mildest of the mild centre left offerings can't do then what chance does anything further left than that have at the moment?

that wasn't the case here, from what I saw and was told, thousands of people or all types came up to the site and were sharing their problems, concerns, etc, anger even, not always PC either, so it did provide a purpose in that it allowed voices to be heard, but the camp did not have the experience and will to move it further.

I also think that the global Occupy movement did put the banks and the financial system on peoples radar.

 

[Pickman's model]

I also think that the global Occupy movement did put the banks and the financial system on peoples radar.

i may be wrong, but i think people had been fairly well aware of banks for many years, with the financial system not a million miles behind especially given gordon brown's repeated claims to have ended the hitherto existing cycle of boom and bust.

 

[brogdale]

what, despite texts like capital being available for almost 150 years? despite economics being taught in schools and colleges up and down the land? despite there being dozens if not hundreds of popular economics books in print and held in publick and academic libraries up and down the land? not to mention the resources freely available online...

Economics is taught in schools, but the total uptake masks a profound demise in the state sector. Sure the next gen 'masters of the universe' learn the lingo, but there's fuck all for most.

 

[Pickman's model]

Economics is taught in schools, but the total uptake masks a profound demise in the state sector. Sure the next gen 'maters of the universe' learn the lingo, but there's fuck all for most.

maters of the universe? you think tory children imbibe economics from their mothers with their milk?

 

[treelover]

how do you find these amazing cartoons, sites, etc, the other cartoonist yesterday was as good?

 

[treelover]

problem is if the alternative to an upper class git is a bloke in a suit in a £2million inherited quid home its a bit

Dan jarvis maybe an ex para but is a break from the westminster hothouse having served in the army a slightly more proper job than say
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvette_Cooper#Early_career might even have worked alongside a prole

Cooper tightened up the WCA test with the 'imaginary wheelchair' element, an Orwellian addition if ever there was one.