people who voted tory

[treelover]

If the Ashcroft post-polling has credibility...here are his actual findings:-

so that's very nearly 3/4 respondents (off all party support) agreeing with a statement that begins with... "I am not feeling the benefits of an economic recovery..."

That's incredible, maybe politics, elections isn't rational after all.

 

[brogdale]

maters of the universe? you think tory children imbibe economics from their mothers with their milk?

Howsomedever...carrying on with this theme...I remember speaking to a local historian in Blaenavon who told me about how the local chapel schools, encouraged by the iron-masters, taught the "3 Rs"...reading, (w)riting and religion. Better that the workers were indoctrinated to know their place than learn the 'rithmatic' that may have helped them to question the exploitative exchange rates of the compulsory tally-shop.

Capital does not want the modern day 'rithmatic' of economic literacy to be spread beyond the putative functionaries of the "temples".

 

[Doctor Carrot]

that wasn't the case here, from what I saw and was told, thousands of people or all types came up to the site and were sharing their problems, concerns, etc, anger even, not always PC either, so it did provide a purpose in that it allowed voices to be heard, but the camp did not have the experience and will to move it further.

I also think that the global Occupy movement did put the banks and the financial system on peoples radar.

Yes it did put it on the radar but occupy is just one example of this. What I'm saying is people, people who work in call centres, supermarkets etc were walking by and all they were seeing were crusty piss heads in tents, waving banners about the bilderberg group and so on.

When you say 'here' I don't know where you're talking about but if it's a major city then I'm not surprised thousands approached discussing grievances as it's a major city.

I'm not say things like occupy are a waste of time. What I am saying is we live in an image obsessed and shallow culture. Acting pissed, looking like you haven't seen a bar of soap since the previous decade, spouting conspiracy theories and so on isn't going to endear you to a wider public. To ignore that is really missing a trick IMO. It's a large reason I don't get as involved as I'd like to. I'm a big bald bloke who wears a shirt and jeans and that goes against me, I have been accused of being undercover old bill before in one place, really made to feel unwelcome in another. Maybe I have the uniform of an arsehole on I dunno but that's the point, just because I don't have dreadlocks or whatever it doesn't mean I'm 'one of them' even if I was then isn't the point to engage me? To try and get me to see things differently? I can understand the suspicion and the closing of ranks sometimes but a wider public can never be reached with that sort of mentality. Being picked up on for the most minor language infractions as being non PC only alienates further I feel.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It was LLETSA who put it very well a fair few years ago to some dickhead I can't remember much about except coming out with Tory crap at another place that won't be mentioned (well, it's sort of what he said): 'The earlier struggles of working class people ensured that today you won't be dead at the age of 32 in a puddle of your own piss.'

By the way, when did you finish your degree and how did you do?

Finished it last July mate - got a 2-1

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Economics is taught in schools, but the total uptake masks a profound demise in the state sector. Sure the next gen 'maters of the universe' learn the lingo, but there's fuck all for most.

Some of the most ignorant ideas about economics that I've heard have come from economics graduates. We've had a few on here.

 

[treelover]

Economics can be seen in a similar light to how the Bible was regarded in the pre-William Tyndale era. In other words, only those who possessed the sacred knowledge and the ability to speak Latin could read it. The peasants couldn't read and so were told what the scriptures said. It was only when the Bible was printed in English (or any other language) that individual interpretations could be made. This threatened the power of the clergy/state to the extent that they executed anyone who advocated translating the Bible into English.

What I'm trying to say is that economics (hardly an ideologically neutral discipline) is the new religion and ordinary folk feel that the subject can only be understood by soi-disant priests of the cult of neoliberalism.

Anyone remember a 'Right To Reply' episode on Ch4, when they had a member of the public who I think was a Marxist self taught economist on: he brilliantly deconstructed the way economic news is reported on the mass media, especially the Footsie stuff which is impenetrable to most. I have never forgot it,

well, my memory has, but my desire to remember it hasn't!

 

[redsquirrel]

Finished it last July mate - got a 2-1

Congrats Spiney

 

[brogdale]

Some of the most ignorant ideas about economics that I've heard have come from economics graduates. We've had a few on here.

Good point. Some of the most illuminating recent material on matters economic is coming from other disciplines, notably from anthropologists like Graeber and sociologists like Streeck. Now...what's happening to the humanities and social sciences in our HE?

 

[Pickman's model]

Some of the most ignorant ideas about economics that I've heard have come from economics graduates. We've had a few on here.

yeh it's the same with law graduates and the law.

 

[ViolentPanda]

(((Praxis)))

Praxis comes in more shapes and forms than attempts to realise communism, comrade.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What goes with liver and bacon?

Chips and gravy (and 2 tomato wedges).

 

[likesfish]

we can hope that dan gets a shadow cabinet post so we can look forward to the traditional para approach to bullshit when he chins someone

* traditionally Army officers are not supposed to settle differences with fisticuffs paras don't care for that sort of tradition there was a court martial after two para officers laid into each other on a range in kenya in front of a muddle of officers only the Guards officers was appalled at the lack of standards everybody else just assumed that's how paras behave

 

[SpookyFrank]

Some of the most ignorant ideas about economics that I've heard have come from economics graduates. We've had a few on here.

Economics is a fundamentally biased discipline as it pretends to study artificial systems with the same methodology and detachment you'd use to study a natural process governed by immutable laws. Economics takes the existing structure of society as an a priori assumption, because its purpose is to legitimise that system and reinforce the idea that it is part of the natural order of things.

Of course you get ignorant tossers with economics degrees. Economics is the science behind the art of exploitation.

 

[kebabking]

best boxing i ever saw was two PARA officers - a thrusting young Captain and the oldest, scariest looking Major ever to serve with Richard Sharpe - they went the whole 12 rounds, and they were a fucking mess at the end of it.

referees, of course, being something for the likes of the RAF Regiment.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Economics is a fundamentally biased discipline as it pretends to study artificial systems with the same methodology and detachment you'd use to study a natural process governed by immutable laws. Economics takes the existing structure of society as an a priori assumption, because its purpose is to legitimise that system and reinforce the idea that it is part of the natural order of things..

Yes, it does do that. It also builds models using absurd assumptions such as 'perfect knowledge' and 'rational actors'. There are economists who try to be more nuanced about stuff, including more realistic ideas about behaviour, but still, a large amount of academic economics is, at root, complete nonsense.

May favourite chestnut of absurdity is possibly the 'Laffer curve', a statement of the bleeding obvious that is nonetheless used to justify cuts in top rates of tax.

That said, the study of financial systems, the workings of money and debt, mechanisms of trade and pricing, etc, is a valid thing to do.

 

[SpookyFrank]

referees, of course, being something for the likes of the RAF Regiment.

Well I suppose if the army was interested in fair play they wouldn't keep bombing defenceless goat farmers with their remote control planes.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That said, the study of financial systems, the workings of money and debt, mechanisms of trade and pricing, etc, is a valid thing to do.

Absolutely, but friends of mine who have attempted to study those things things at university economics departments have found that a giant wall of orthodoxy stood in their way. You just can't mention things like the infinite growth/finite resources paradox because it's not part of the internal logic of the field, in fact the entire field depends on ignoring it. You certainly can't introduce morality into the issues, because you can't let moral judgements cloud your objectivity. This is a science remember, morality doesn't enter into it.

 

[kebabking]

Well I suppose if the army was interested in fair play they wouldn't keep bombing defenceless goat farmers with their remote control planes.

its the RAF who bomb goat herders and wedding parties with remote control lanes - the Army is too busy bayonetting disabled, but photogenic, orphans.

 

[co-op]

Absolutely, but friends of mine who have attempted to study those things things at university economics departments have found that a giant wall of orthodoxy stood in their way. You just can't mention things like the infinite growth/finite resources paradox because it's not part of the internal logic of the field, in fact the entire field depends on ignoring it. You certainly can't introduce morality into the issues, because you can't let moral judgements cloud your objectivity. This is a science remember, morality doesn't enter into it.

There's the problem of the internal logic but surely there's a more serious problem with economics as a subject in that its conclusions seriously impact on the distribution of wealth and power - it's never going to be value-neutral. It's like suggesting that you can study politics and automatically learn the right politics like you can learn the right answer in GCSE maths.

Powerful wealthy people are going to favour certain theories outcomes and so are the institutions that are funded directly or indirectly by them.

 

[hot air baboon]

we can hope that dan gets a shadow cabinet post so we can look forward to the traditional para approach to bullshit when he chins someone

* traditionally Army officers are not supposed to settle differences with fisticuffs paras don't care for that sort of tradition there was a court martial after two para officers laid into each other on a range in kenya in front of a muddle of officers only the Guards officers was appalled at the lack of standards everybody else just assumed that's how paras behave

...Dan Jarvis and Eric Joyce...would have been the dream ticket...

 

[nino_savatte]

Some of the most ignorant ideas about economics that I've heard have come from economics graduates. We've had a few on here.

There was a story a couple of years ago about some economics students who'd started a petition demanding that universities offer more breadth with regards to the teaching of economics, which is mostly taught along neoliberal lines these days.

 

[likesfish]

Well I suppose if the army was interested in fair play they wouldn't keep bombing defenceless goat farmers with their remote control planes.

its the RAF who bomb goat herders and wedding parties with remote control lanes - the Army is too busy bayonetting disabled, but photogenic, orphans.

you joke but there was that truly random court martial when somefuckwit got drunk at a forward patrol base
so drunk they took his rifle off him
fuckwit then decides to join his patrol anyway because when your on patrol in afgahistan you really want an unarmed piss head with you
then failing to find said patrol stabs some kid
http://worldobserveronline.com/2013/05/23/british-soldier-jailed-stabbing-10-year-old-afghan-boy-2/



general feeling was bloody taliban when you really need some cunt beheaded they are never about

 

[frogwoman]

kabbes, equationgirl, chilango, butchersapron, weepiper et al have a look at this link from yougov and read the comments. Lots of 'Tory voters are uneducated and didnt even bother to read the manifesto' type shit.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/05/11/we-got-it-wrong-why/

 

[chilango]

kabbes, equationgirl, chilango, butchersapron, weepiper et al have a look at this link from yougov and read the comments. Lots of 'Tory voters are uneducated and didnt even bother to read the manifesto' type shit.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/05/11/we-got-it-wrong-why/

Hmmm.

As someone extensively polled by YouGov in the run up to the election it's worth pointing out that the polls usually included questions about howuch you considered you "knew" about politics, and there were often little "test" questions such as identifying various political figures.

Also worth noting that I was occasionally "economical" with the truth in some answers and that some answers I (truthfully) gave probably confounded their models.

 

[frogwoman]

Hmmm.

As someone extensively polled by YouGov in the run up to the election it's worth pointing out that the polls usually included questions about howuch you considered you "knew" about politics, and there were often little "test" questions such as identifying various political figures.

Also worth noting that I was occasionally "economical" with the truth in some answers and that some answers I (truthfully) gave probably confounded their models.

Have a look at the comments though.

 

[chilango]

Have a look at the comments though.

Yeah, I did - briefly. I don't fancy wading through it though.

It's like CIF or the BBC or Amazon or TripAdvisor. Lots of people saying lots of stuff just cos they can. I'm not sure it amounts to anything "real".

...but, yeah, some dismal stuff.

 

[DotCommunist]

I hate the 'uneducated' thing so much. My mate Barry (who you met once froggy) didn't get even a GCSE and yet is thinking enough to say things like 'well if we all downed tools tomorrow they'd be fucked, but not everyone will cos they have kids to feed'

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, I did - briefly. I don't fancy wading through it though.

It's like CIF or the BBC or Amazon or TripAdvisor. Lots of people saying lots of stuff just cos they can. I'm not sure it amounts to anything "real".

...but, yeah, some dismal stuff.

Like this:


Very suspicious indeed. The level pegging nature of the polls aided the Tories and their campaign message about what a disaster a Lab/SNP government would bring to the UK. Without the leveled nature of the polls, voters would have perhaps started to look into the actual policies of the parties far more.

But the close nature of the polls allowed the Tories to continually pursue an assault against Labour and the SNP for most of the run up. Hence why we now have a Tory government in power about to bring in a whole host of controversial policies that don't seem to benefit the working/middle class in any way. A large portion of those of voted Tory probably didn't bother to read their manifesto, instead opting to read the Sun, Mail and Telegraph's vicious attacks against Miliband and Scotland.

 

[chilango]

Yeah I read that frogwoman just the usual middle-brow sneering you get from the sort of people that think watching newsnight gives them some sort of superior insight.

 

[Dogsauce]

I saw some polling on where people got their info from when deciding to vote the other day, but I can't remember where! It included which newspapers people read and so on. Has anyone come across it? I don't think there were any shocking facts to be drawn out of it really, something like 30% of those influenced by newspapers read the Mail, but they were likely to already be in the Mail camp politically anyway.