cantsin
Well-Known Member
you actually think they were Taliban now ?
Paramilitary Style Group Protests In Luton
- Thread starter greenman
- Start date
you actually think they were Taliban now ?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-10329634-details/Terror+on+the+dole/article.do
the 'Islamic community' may be isolated .. that is cos it is reactionary .. the muslim community is not .. there are issues with certain pakistani communities but where is the Turkish community or Turkish Cypriot commmunity isolated cos of its relegion? They are not. And where are the jihadis in the Bangla commnity? .. i don't see them. The issue is that partially as a result of racism partially as a result of global resource wars, a deeply reactionary and backward looking current has gained a footing in the ex/Pakistani community .. to pretend this is of no significance is simply idiotic .. if you can not be honest and admit that all peoples can be racist and anti women then the people you want to listen to you and take you seriously will not ..
you can not have your cake and eat it .. you can not say islam is a broad church ( it is) and has a liberal end ( it does) and that the vast majority of muslims are not fundies and are good people ( they are) and then say attacks on islamofascists are an attack on islam ..
Originally Posted by durruti02 View Post
why are they not scum? are the taliban not scum?
so are you being deliberately daft? is it not obvious this was two questions? btw what do you think al muh and taliban .. two questions .. are they scum
My bold.
No, it's the politicians and the media that need to be questioned. As VP, myself and others keep saying on threads like these, they are the ones hyping up the patriotism shite. Most squaddies don't give a flying fuck about it. as far as the guys are concerned it's nice to have some folks cheering and clapping when you do a parade, especially when you know that you're going off on a nice long leave period straight after. That there might be a protest is looked on with a bit of a smile. Burning the flag might actually get more of a reaction from a squaddie than shouting and waving a placard and the protester might not like the reaction!
I suspect that's partly down to some elements of both the right and the left having a very fixed set of ideas about the union flag which may very well be "spot-on" in terms of a particular analysis of the union flags' meaning, but have little to do with the everyday feelings and ideas people might attach to it.
I mean, I see the flag in its' bloody historical context, but that's not all it's about.
And yes, I'm well aware of what a wishy-washy "typical bloody sociologist" sentiment that is.
no i think this IS important .. it was the same with BJFBP .. people i talked too outside of my political circles just don't see Britain as this overwhelmingly bad thing .. they did NOT see BJFBP as exclusive or xenophobic .. they simply saw it as standing up for themselves and their families etc .. yes insular NOT xenophobic
and is Britain BAD!! .. in many ways yes BUT ALL history ALL nations have evil sides .. the issue is to contect to where the good lies .. Billy Bragg is keen on this progressive Britain which i can't go as far as but i see what he is saying
( belgium hideous rep in africa .. holland ditto in se asia .. germany ditto in africa and of course hitler ... italy fascists and africa .. spain - fascist .. norway -quislings .. greece - the generals .. turkey - armenia genicide and kurdish war .. france - imperialism and facist .. switzerland -banks .. usa - vietnam etc etc etc .. there are NO countries which stand a politrical testing ( 'cept sweden???
)
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
no i think this IS important .. it was the same with BJFBP .. people i talked too outside of my political circles just don't see Britain as this overwhelmingly bad thing .. they did NOT see BJFBP as exclusive or xenophobic .. they simply saw it as standing up for themselves and their families etc .. yes insular NOT xenophobic
and is Britain BAD!! .. in many ways yes BUT ALL history ALL nations have evil sides .. the issue is to contect to where the good lies .. Billy Bragg is keen on this progressive Britain which i can't go as far as but i see what he is saying
( belgium hideous rep in africa .. holland ditto in se asia .. germany ditto in africa and of course hitler ... italy fascists and africa .. spain - fascist .. norway -quislings .. greece - the generals .. turkey - armenia genicide and kurdish war .. france - imperialism and facist .. switzerland -banks .. usa - vietnam etc etc etc .. there are NO countries which stand a politrical testing ( 'cept sweden???
Even Sweden fall down, what with their state eugenics programme. 60,000+ sterilisations of people with physical and mental "handicaps" over 40 years.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Yup.Even Sweden fall down, what with their state eugenics programme. 60,000+ sterilisations of people with physical and mental "handicaps" over 40 years.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
Violent Panda said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/theoffice/epguide/series1_ep3.shtml
Look, seeing as none of us have any idea about what eachother are doing, it's abit fucking pointless going round in circles accusing eachother of inactivity - let's stick to the issues at hand, eh?
Oh, and dennis's 'internet hardman' jibes are a tad rich -
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8849786&postcount=240
On the flag - the point is, "patriotism" is unity. Just bogus unity. Exactly the kind of unity anyone with a class analysis cannot allow to carry on going unquestioned.
If you read my post carefully, you'll see I didn't recommend turning up at a demo burning a Union Jack either. What I said was, that until that is a political feasability, then we can't win. We need to challenge the Union Jack, and the idea that patriotism can ever be 'progressive'. The only period in which I wouldn't make a point about opposing national sentiment was in the midst of a national liberation movement - though you'd always have to argue against it regardless, as not attaining it's potential.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Then why give it some when you already know that, eh?
And again, may I emphasise that class analysis isn't always germane?
What we need to do is challenge the dominant representations made of the union jack, cut away the layers of myth that allow the powers-that-be to represent it as a symbol of state.
dennisr
the acceptable face
^I'll repeat the question. I'm not even bothering to ask about your personal involvement
You accuse the SP of being 'spineless' and pandering to nationalism.
Yet you do fuck all while the SP turn one dispute after another around.
Its all 'talking the talk' when it comes to your version of 'challenging' - for all the flag-burning rhetoric (the actual 'internet hardman' reality you have unsurprising ducked as an issue....) while you come out with baseless and genuinely 'spineless' lies about those who actually get their hands dirty.
Others get on with the real job of genuinely challenging backward attitudes without alienating. Idiots like you? - sit behind your computer screens 'talking the talk' of anti-racism and lieing through your cynical teeth.
And that sums you up - utterly dishonest, poisonous and cynical - a do nothing hypocrite and 'internet hardman'
I can understand and sympathise with those who are genuinely concerned and angry that 'not enough' is being one while folk are still dying in iraq, afganistan etc, folk are still being jailed and victimised across the world. But your tears, they are completely crocodile. Completely cynical.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
You are.
All those who intimate that there is something "sacred" about a Military homecoming parade. Its tabloid patriotism pure and simple.
Those whose gut feeling is to be "outraged" that people should dare to "disrespect this "sacred" parade.
Those, like you, who make a distinction between the army and the police. There is no difference. One is the domestic attack dog and one is the attack dog in foreign policy.
Those who are outraged that Muslims, of all people, dare do this.
Anyway what exactly did this group do? As far as I know a small group made a peaceful protest at a military homecoming march. It was legal. It was fairly well maintained and it behaved itself. So what exactly was so offensive about their demonstration? I don't like the politics of this group of demonstrators any more than you do, but, er, what exactly did this group do that was so offensive?
As far as I remember, mobs of Muslims didn't attack cars and beat people up in luton did they? Mobs of muslims didn't break shop windows did they?
No that was the other group.
There is a genuine anger amongst all Muslims about Iraq, Gaza and other countries where they see Muslims being tortured and killed. They see coalition troops occupying Iraq. They see photos of US troops torturing people. They see Muslims languishing in detention camps with no sight of trial or due process.They see Israeli troops acting with impunity and committing blatant war crimes without a peep from the West.
This anger is legitimate and should be applauded.
That Islamists exploit this is the tragedy of the lack of a secular alternative, but where are the secular arguments? Where is the left?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
dennisr
the acceptable face
And you - you are like a broken record.
Tabloid anti-patriotism as a counter to tabloid patriotism.
You don't have to convince anyone here of the horrors going on abroad
what you have to convince us of is the tactics being deployed by those you cheer lead uncritically.
but that's ok you can simply ignore the points that have already been made, as you have been doing, and repeat the same old rhetoric. Eventually you may even convince yourself
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
sorry fgarf, this simply ain't true. And I should know; I grew up near there, and in fact spent many saturdays on the terraces at Kenilworth Rd. Luton is a large industral town, which contains its' fair share of knuckle-draggers as well as a sizable asian community, but one in which there has never been, historically, that sort of trouble (Nor have I noticed an excess of BNP types when going back to visit my old mates - and you tend to notice those types).
It is also worth remmbering that the area is socially varied, much more so than many places.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Even more interesting would be some answers from you as to how to cut across these ideas??
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
If I was a fascist I would be laughing my head off at the constant squabbling on boards like this. Fucking dismal.
I am a fascist apologist because i disagree with you about a few unrepresentative muslims shouting insults at squaddies?
If your not a BNP troll you are still a right twat dylans.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
no you wouldn't you'd be arguing why SS spirituality is not aryan enough, and fruitloop as well, with some Nazi sectarian weirdo. On Sturmcunts
dylans
overlord of all acorns
A few unrepresentative muslims protesting a bloody illegal war. I wish it was led by the liberal democrats but it wasn't.
Cut out the stupid abuse. You have called me BNP 3 times without the slightest justification. You are out of order. Pack it in.
So tell me again how does my disagreement with you on the issue make me a fascist apologist?
dennisr
the acceptable face
But its OK to accuse everyone else who does not cheerlead those few idiots of being for the iraq war?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...or of supporting 'our boys', or of being racists, and classist -all slurs that would normally have seen the poster being ignored by now. He's lucky anyone's engaged with him at all after all that.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
It doesn't. I apologise. Now cut out the abuse and argue with what I say.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
No you are not for the Iraq war. But you are capitulating to patriotic jingoism.
Ex militant, my guess. The poster who mentioned workers power is on the mark. I was. Long time ago.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Explain this capitulation, give examples?
So, workers 'power', that explains the rhetoric. So are you now inactive?
Personally I am an SP member as i was a Militant 'supporter' - 20 odd years of 'capitulating' I imagine you would say.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Everyone take a deep breath and step back. I haven't been on S&*rmfr**t or the like for a while, but again you can bet your arse they dont argue like we do. Surely that's to their benefit and our detriment.
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