Paramilitary Style Group Protests In Luton

[butchersapron]

Twenty years of political cowardice

Four and a Half Years of Fighting Against Lies, Stupidity and Cowardice

 

[dennisr]

Oh fuck off. You have no idea about my life and I am damned if i have to explain myself to you. So shove it.

You started the rhetoric fella. You demand other explain themselves.

I can't help it if I have upset your delicate 'anti-imperialist' self in questioning your words.

 

[dylans]

So they could get those ministerial posts and start implementing neo-liberal cuts on behalf of those british state scum?

A lot of brave people lost their lives for that??

Hey I don't disagree. I'm no Sinn Fein member.

But what was Mili doing when brave people were facing the bullets of British troops on their streets? Calling freedom fighters terrorists that's what.

 

[audiotech]

Steady on, B/Arab, too much complexity may confuse MC5 and others, easier to see them as a homegenous ranting mob.

The "Go to hell NF" placards were noted sometime ago elsewhere and were linked to an entirely different event. My comments were about a more current event. I referred to some of those taking part as 'piss-artists' and not as you write a 'ranting mob'.

I notice though that there were on both marches some ranting, although it appears it was the just the last march where there's reportedly been a mob assaulting people.

The person confused is you.

 

[chilango]

This thread is like a 20 year timewarp.

Not supporting argentina in the falklands war?

uh oh.

weirdoes.

 

[tbaldwin]

Aye - us 'social chauvanists' took our que from our cdes n NI - initially drawn from members of the civil rights movement in Derry in particular. Despite, the collapse of your 'anti-imperialist' struggle, socialists still have a base in NI - playing a key role in the recent Vitreon occupation in Belfast for instance.

Thing is, I can fully understand those lads queueing up to sign up to the RA in the wake of the bloody sunday murders - i respect their commitment, if i had come from those communities i would have probably done the same thing - its the organisation's cheerleaders here in 'blighty' i find harder to respect.

Weirdly most working people in NI don't want a return to your 'anti-imperialist' war. Why do you think that is?

Have to say i agree with dennisr. The cheerleaders of the Irish struggle from the UK always condemned militant. But Militant were right in arguing for class politics not nationalism.
And what has been really interesting aboput the peace process has been that people on both sides who fought the war realised as David Ervine said "that for too long young working class men have been killing each other its time it stopped"
There were disgraceful acts of violence on both sides Kingsmill etc etc but like dennis says people were born into an ongoing feud most of the cheerleaders for both sides had very little idea of what the other side really wanted and feared.

 

[dennisr]

Hey I don't disagree. I'm no Sinn Fein member.

But what was Mili doing when brave people were facing the bullets of British troops on their streets? Calling freedom fighters terrorists that's what.

Unlike you I don't see the need to uncritically support our "enemy's enemy". Especially when our own people exist on the ground. The CWI trade union organisers in Kashmir face regular attacks (beatings, disappearances) from the same type of right-wing political islamist you demand we should support. We are in direct competition with them the same was and is true in NI. Where is your internationalism there? Where are the interests of the working class the priority in your 'anti-imperialist' guff?

We should be putting forward demands that unite working people rather than supporting one community against another. You may not agree that the protestant working class in NI should be appealed to - that class politics should be used to split that section that of the class from the state - rather than reinforce their identification with that same state. Similarly, you may argue that the only way to deal with the jingoistic ejets you saw on the recent provocation in Luton is to batter them and support any old islamists provocation.

You have a nice simplistic label for that and a quote from trotsky to 'back it up'. I suppose that's easier than dealing with the real world?

I suppose I should just wait latest bile filled listing as a replacement to a genuine open discussion over what tactics/strategies are actually required to cut across divisions within the working class

 

[dylans]

This thread is like a 20 year timewarp.

Not supporting argentina in the falklands war?

uh oh.

weirdoes.

hehehe. Well, yeah.

But the point is now. This is where condemning an anti war protest because "it wasn't led by those we approve of" comes from.

This is where "oh the target of this demonstration is out of bounds" comes from. British fucking soldiers coming home from an imperialist war for gods sake. I can't think of a better target for an anti war demo.

Some things don't change, they really don't.

 

[nightbreed]

I do remember you refusing to support Argentina in the Falklands war.

.

So you honestly supported a country that did this?

Was to support Argentina a socialist position in your view?

Militant didnt support Argentina nor the UK government and called for a Socialist solution

You are fucking twisted. Go back abroad for another 15 years!!

The Mili position on Ireland was also a socialist position. A class position. Again you show the maturity of a typical middle class public school boy who picks a 'rrrrrrrrevolutionary' position because it upsets Mummy and Daddy.

Fuckwit!!

 

[dennisr]

This thread is like a 20 year timewarp.

Not supporting argentina in the falklands war?

uh oh.

weirdoes.

The apparent 'crimes' of Militant are something we will have to limp along with until the revolution I'm guessing...

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are.

All those who intimate that there is something "sacred" about a Military homecoming parade. Its tabloid patriotism pure and simple.

I've already asked you once to not put words in my mouth that I haven't uttered.

Those whose gut feeling is to be "outraged" that people should dare to "disrespect this "sacred" parade.

Except that neither I nor anyone else on this thread has voiced any such sentiment.
Do stop inventing stuff, riveting though your fantasies are..

Those, like you, who make a distinction between the army and the police. There is no difference. One is the domestic attack dog and one is the attack dog in foreign policy.

One minute you claim there's no difference, the next you elucidate a difference.
Which is it?

Those who are outraged that Muslims, of all people, dare do this.

Am I outraged?
Nope.

Anyway what exactly did this group do? As far as I know a small group made a peaceful protest at a military homecoming march. It was legal. It was fairly well maintained and it behaved itself. So what exactly was so offensive about their demonstration? I don't like the politics of this group of demonstrators any more than you do, but, er, what exactly did this group do that was so offensive?

You see, this is where you trip yourself up, with your self-righteous declamations: You don't pay attention to who you're replying to or what you're replying about. I haven't posted any objections to anyone exercising their right of protest, so asking me what was so offensive is the work of (as I've been forced to describe you before) a fool.

As far as I remember, mobs of Muslims didn't attack cars and beat people up in luton did they? Mobs of muslims didn't break shop windows did they?
No that was the other group.

There is a genuine anger amongst all Muslims about Iraq, Gaza and other countries where they see Muslims being tortured and killed.

You forgot about a dozen other countries.
But perhaps Muslims repressing Muslims don't count, hmmm?

They see coalition troops occupying Iraq. They see photos of US troops torturing people. They see Muslims languishing in detention camps with no sight of trial or due process.

Then why don't they do anything about it?
I'll give you my reasoning. They don't do anything because politically many of the larger Muslim communities are still in political thrall to their "community leaders", and therefore get kept in the rut of the status quo, so pretty much the only route for political expression becomes what people tend (mistakenly) to describe as "Islamo-fascism". Many choose not to take that route because they (rightly) assume that it'll bring a storm of shit down on their heads.

They see Israeli troops acting with impunity and committing blatant war crimes without a peep from the West.

Without a peep, eh? That's news to some of us who've been publicising the crimes of the state of Israel for 30 or more years.

This anger is legitimate and should be applauded.

Wrong.
The anger is legitimate and should be utilised, not pissed away on gesture politics.

That Islamists exploit this is the tragedy of the lack of a secular alternative, but where are the secular arguments? Where is the left?

Up their arses along with you, I suspect.
Do you think that change that comes from without is worthwhile? I don't. If Muslim communities are to have an alternative (leftist or otherwise)to either extremism or the current "top-down" "leadership" of the so-called community leaders, they need to find it within themselves and take the power for themselves, otherwise it won't be worth jack-shit.

 

[dennisr]

Tell us about your involvement with Troops out Dennisr. Oh you can't because you refused to call for troops out of Ireland didn't you. I almost forgot.

A bit of sectariana for all:

We actually opposed them going in in the first place... Unlike certain groups I dare not mention.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It doesn't. I apologise. Now cut out the abuse and argue with what I say.

Then say something worthwhile, not just piss-weak accusations flavoured with your assumptions.

 

[Athos]

Dunno if this has been mentioned.

The Luton 'protesters' website here

I notice that they have a guestbook.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't need to justify my political credentials to a little twerp like you.

Ah, the "man" who asks people not to use abuse can't live up to his own standards.
And, to be frank, you do have to "justify your political credentials".

You have no idea who I am or what I have done.

But we can formulate a fairly clear picture of what you are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Lordy lordy

That' a brilliant little insight into why this sort of left is dead as a dodo.

And why it should be, too.

 

[nightbreed]

I notice that they have a guestbook.

Not a popular one by the look of it.

 

[dylans]

A bit of sectariana for all:

We actually opposed them going in in the first place... Unlike certain groups I dare not mention.

Oh yawn. I am going to say this once and then get back to the issue in hand, the stuff in Luton.

You consistently refused to back a call for the withdrawal of British troops from Ireland. Fact.
You played this "keeping the tribes apart" bullshit and refused to acknowledge the role the British army were playing as occupying powers in a war of national liberation.

 

[nightbreed]

A bit of sectariana for all:

We actually opposed them going in in the first place... Unlike certain groups I dare not mention.

A very true fact often forgotten by many parts of the far left.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hey I don't disagree. I'm no Sinn Fein member.

But what was Mili doing when brave people were facing the bullets of British troops on their streets? Calling freedom fighters terrorists that's what.

It's all binary oppositions to people like you, isn't it? Everything is black or white, good or evil.


Grow the fuck up.

 

[dennisr]

But what was Mili doing when brave people were facing the bullets of British troops on their streets? Calling freedom fighters terrorists that's what.

I know we don't all agree on this - and I don't want to derail the thread completely but - NI:

Working people including Militant members were facing those same bullets.
And - including Militant members - some were shot dead by the British army (in the case of Colm McCallan (25) who died two days after being shot near his home in Legoneil - murdered by the UVF)

Similarly they faced bombs not set off by the British Army.

The catholic wc communities were (and still are...) among the poorest in the UK. Only slightly 'ahead' of them in the pyramid of 'oppression' (if we can jokingly call it that) were (and equally still are...) the protestant working class communities. The protestant working class - its real interest - was to break from the unionists - this was made that much harder by the association of 'left' with the IRA and SF. More importantly the protestant working class HAD to be broken from the unionists (and british state of course) if the NI working class - both protestant AND catholic was (and is...) able to improve its position.

That view was not the easy option or the cowards option - it was the only option available if working class unity was/is to be achieved. Very few would foolishly argue that the protestant working class could simply be written off - but it was the logical conclusion drawn from uncritical support for the nationalist struggle. In the same vein the IRA could not and did not defeat the british state any more than the british state could not and did not defeat the IRA. That was never a moral question - it was always a strategic one. The working class is not empowered by a struggle being carried out - even when on 'its behalf' (and it is debatable in this case...) by armed urban units as a replacement for mass struggle.

Now you can disagree with the strategy the NI Militants argued for - but don't call them cowards for taking that position.

From the SPNI site:
"It was our members who organised the first strikes against sectarian intimidation. We answered paramilitary threats against Catholic workers in the civil service with walkouts by Catholic and Protestant. When similar threats were made by republicans against Protestant we did the same. It was the movement that emerged from these initiatives that began the peace process."

"The Socialist Party has branches across Northern Ireland. Our members are from both Protestant and Catholic backgrounds. We are based in the working class areas and among the youth."

"We are active within the trade unions and have played a leading role in strikes in both the public and private sectors.
In 2002, our members led a successful struggle to win full time contracts for 5000 term time workers, education workers who had previously received no pay when schools were closed. In a number of unions we are organising left oppositions to challenge the right wing leaderships."

"We campaign on day to day issues that affect working class people. Our End Low Pay Campaign has targeted employers paying low wages, exposing over 300 companies. Through pickets and direct action we have forced a number to raise their wages."

 

[dennisr]

Oh yawn. I am going to say this once and then get back to the issue in hand, the stuff in Luton.

You consistently refused to back a call for the withdrawal of British troops from Ireland. Fact.
You played this "keeping the tribes apart" bullshit and refused to acknowledge the role the British army were playing as occupying powers in a war of national liberation.

I have wasted by time in the previous post clarifying what our position was. I can piss around and bore everyone with the logical detail of that position if you like.

A "what if" - given you uncritically supported the nationalist struggle you would have also supported the troops going in at the time - yes or no?

 

[butchersapron]

It's all binary oppositions to people like you, isn't it? Everything is black or white, good or evil.


Grow the fuck up.

Dare we ask him if he supports the workers bomb?

 

[durruti02]

Even Sweden fall down, what with their state eugenics programme. 60,000+ sterilisations of people with physical and mental "handicaps" over 40 years.

oh well, fuck sweden too!

 

[smokedout]

I remember you refusing to support Iraq during the invasion of Kuwait

end of debate - go away youre mad

 

[dylans]

Dare we ask him if he supports the workers bomb?

No, but I think Iran has the right to a bomb as long as Israel has it.

 

[dennisr]

I'm still willing to pay for those leaflets, my hero *swoons*

 

[durruti02]

Might be useful to examine the history of the 'Troops Out Movement', who sometimes protested outside army recruitment offices, whilst avoiding, as far as I'm aware, any notion of attending, or organising any emotive demos at parades?

thats interesting and sensible .. i have suggested that to dylan or maybe FM a couple of times but no bite

 

[tbaldwin]

Oh yawn. I am going to say this once and then get back to the issue in hand, the stuff in Luton.

You consistently refused to back a call for the withdrawal of British troops from Ireland. Fact.
You played this "keeping the tribes apart" bullshit and refused to acknowledge the role the British army were playing as occupying powers in a war of national liberation.

And how succesful was the Troops out group? Do you think they had any impact on the policies of the British and Irish goverments?
When the civil rights movement were beaten off the streets of NI many saw the only hope of justice being a military campaign. But is there any evidence that that campaign had any effect in speeding up the ending of some of the injustices`like Gerrymandering?
25 years, thousands killed but what did any of it achieve?

 

[dylans]

I have wasted by time in the previous post clarifying what our position was. I can piss around and bore everyone with the logical detail of that position if you like.

A "what if" - given you uncritically supported the nationalist struggle you would have also supported the troops going in at the time - yes or no?

Absolutely No.
I support the nationalist community's right to defend their homes from loyalist pogroms. The British army arrived to defend the status-quo of a loyalist state and to crush the nationalist rebellion in the bogside.

This is my last on this too ok. The working class were divided. But that ideological division wasn't equal.One side (the loyalists) were wedded to a reactionary ideology ie the maintenance of the loyalist state.

The other (nationalist) section of the working class held an anti imperialist ideology ie a united Ireland. Your equating of the two sides as equally reactionary just pandered to loyalist and pro British chauvanism. This was a betrayal of the nationalist working class and put you on the wrong side in a war of national liberation.