Paramilitary Style Group Protests In Luton

[audiotech]

More here on the Luton protests.

Some had a different target in mind. "Leave them - they're coppers, not Pakis" said one as a further attempt to break police lines was made. An Asian shop down Chapel Street had its windows broken and cars were damaged as one individual walked up the boot, across the roof, down the windscreen and on with his journey.

And

Great credit must go to a local young Imam who persuaded a group of angry young muslim men from making their way towards the town centre. A true act of leadership matched by the self-restraint and disciplined of the Bury Park youth. It appears that the Imam was from the same mosque that was burned in a firebomb incident from a few weeks ago.

It's also worth noting that Monday’s International Carnival – with 100,000 participants instead of the 200 on the previous evening events – provided a far more positive and accurate representation of the town of Luton.

 

[dennisr]

What is the average luton muslim like then btw?

I simply take the information provided by the Kashmiri fella (who spent his entire life in Luton...) who lived with me for a year. He is now back in Luton - politically, he has meandered between being an active Muslim activist - mixing with the type of people involved in the demonstration - and more recently working closely with secular socialists. And his uncle who, when in the UK lives in Luton - he's a key organiser for progressive Muslims, as Trade Unionists in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (while avoiding being murdered by the sort of allies some of these 'demonstrators' would be more than happy to be seen as part of - along with other TU activists in the region).

Apart from that I know fuck all. Mate

 

[King Biscuit Time]

As usual, Anton Vowl is bang on the money with his critique of The Daily Mail's reporting of this event.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A few bad apples? We've heard that before.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/08/media.pressandpublishing

Don't put words in my mouth. It merely illuminates your ignorance.
If you knew anything about the British military, you'd know that a cluster-fuck the size and shape of Bloody Sunday was far more likely with parachute monkeys around than with any other regular formation, because they're dog soldiers, they're useless for "policing" duties because of their training (which, in case you're unaware, is to clear real-estate and hold it).
get a clue, there's a good fellow. In fact, if you've got an ounce of inquisitiveness in your head, why not check the data for civilian deaths before and after the Parachute regt first served in NI?
There's a reason most infantry dislike the paras, and it's not because they get to jump out of planes.

 

[dennisr]

Do you think that as one of the last refugees of the BNP and indeed C18 this area of the uk is known for it's racist and racailly motiveated attacks and actions over the years...

if you think Luton's bad - you would shit yourself in somewhat misdirected, bulletin-board-based rage at the situation in Stoke or some areas of the north-west.

You don't really know what you are talking about do you?

 

[Das Uberdog]

The army needs to be questioned, as does 'patriotism'. We need to find some way of opposing bullshit homecoming parades and standing up against this deluded flag-fucking. You also can't void your responsibility as a leftist to stand up for a totally marginalised, politically isolated and increasingly threatened Islamic community - and yes, that includes not 'blaming' reactionary fash on 'Muslim extremists' as durruti02 just loves to do.

Gotta say, too, Violent Panda's claim that there are 'constitutional safeguards preventing the army from being used like the police' was a bit of a laugh. Albeit a twisted, dark one.

Gotta say, too, I've been pretty fucking appalled at the spinelessness of the SP when it comes to dealing with flag-waving bollocks recently. Not challenging what is a very worrying public and popular sentiment at all.

It's a bad situation where soldiers can just expect not just politicians but members of the public to fawn at their feet for the 'contribution' they've made to the fucking country. I wouldn't let any of my mates back from Iraq get away with it - tbh, my mates are nice lads. They wouldn't demand it. Even still - there's no fucking reason we should be 'thankful' for them serving as fucking tools in ruining the lives of millions of Iraqis, and it's fucking laughable that people can pull this 'economic victimhood' bullshit out of the bag in the context of this war. It's not fucking world war II - we're not fighting the Germans any more. It's not like a proper war where you can stay politically unaligned and just suppor the class - you have to support the real victims of oppression. The Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, and Somalian Muslims all extricated in this bogus "War on Terror".

Not saying we should start throwing rocks at homecoming troops - but until the left feels strong enough to turn up at one of these parades burning a Union Jack then we are, objectively, fucked.

 

[dylans]

There's a reason most infantry dislike the paras, and it's not because they get to jump out of planes.

I don't think I'm putting words into your mouth but it is clearly your intention to claim that the Parachute Regiment are the "bad apples of the British military. Clearly other regiments are lilly white honourable heroes all.

Was this guy and his mates para's? er no. they fucking tortured people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/19/iraq.military

 

[dylans]

The army needs to be questioned, as does 'patriotism'. We need to find some way of opposing bullshit homecoming parades and standing up against this deluded flag-fucking. You also can't void your responsibility as a leftist to stand up for a totally marginalised, politically isolated and increasingly threatened Islamic community - and yes, that includes not 'blaming' reactionary fash on 'Muslim extremists' as durruti02 just loves to do.

Gotta say, too, Violent Panda's claim that there are 'constitutional safeguards preventing the army from being used like the police' was a bit of a laugh. Albeit a twisted, dark one.

Gotta say, too, I've been pretty fucking appalled at the spinelessness of the SP when it comes to dealing with flag-waving bollocks recently. Not challenging what is a very worrying public and popular sentiment at all.

It's a bad situation where soldiers can just expect not just politicians but members of the public to fawn at their feet for the 'contribution' they've made to the fucking country. I wouldn't let any of my mates back from Iraq get away with it - tbh, my mates are nice lads. They wouldn't demand it. Even still - there's no fucking reason we should be 'thankful' for them serving as fucking tools in ruining the lives of millions of Iraqis, and it's fucking laughable that people can pull this 'economic victimhood' bullshit out of the bag in the context of this war. It's not fucking world war II - we're not fighting the Germans any more. It's not like a proper war where you can stay politically unaligned and just suppor the class - you have to support the real victims of oppression. The Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, and Somalian Muslims all extricated in this bogus "War on Terror".

Not saying we should start throwing rocks at homecoming troops - but until the left feels strong enough to turn up at one of these parades burning a Union Jack then we are, objectively, fucked.

I agree with all of this.

 

[dennisr]

Can you remind me where this 'challenging' has been going on, again? - I seemed to have missed it - what with all the internet posturing on your parts - just wanted to be reminded where this 'challenging' has occurred in practice?

^I'll repeat the question

You accuse the SP of being 'spineless' and pandering to nationalism.

Yet you do fuck all while the SP turn one dispute after another around.

Its all talk the talk when it comes to your version of 'challenging' - for all the flag-burning rhetoric (the actual 'internet hardman' reality you have unsurprising ducked as an issue....) while you come out with baseless and genuinely 'spineless' lies about those who actually get their hands dirty.

Other get on with the real job of genuinely challenging backward attitudes without alienating while idiots like you sit behind your computer screens 'talking the talk' of ant-racism and lieing through your cynical teeth.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think I'm putting words into your mouth but it is clearly your intention to claim that the Parachute Regiment are the "bad apples of the British military. Clearly other regiments are lilly white honourable heroes all.

I haven't claimed that at all.
I'm making the point that Bloody Sunday was a direct result of using the wrong type of troops as "policing elements" in Ulster, and that the Parachute regt have a fairly chequered history in regard to committing atrocities, especially given that they're such a young regiment in military terms.

Was this guy and his mates para's? er no. they fucking tortured people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/19/iraq.military

And your point, beyond the obvious, is?

 

[Spymaster]

Clearly other regiments are lilly white honourable heroes all.

Who said that then, Dyldo?

 

[danny la rouge]

The army needs to be questioned, as does 'patriotism'. We need to find some way of opposing bullshit homecoming parades and standing up against this deluded flag-fucking.

Has anyone said otherwise, though?

 

[dennisr]

Has anyone said otherwise, though?

you are not expecting honesty from the internet hardman are you danny?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The army needs to be questioned, as does 'patriotism'. We need to find some way of opposing bullshit homecoming parades and standing up against this deluded flag-fucking. You also can't void your responsibility as a leftist to stand up for a totally marginalised, politically isolated and increasingly threatened Islamic community - and yes, that includes not 'blaming' reactionary fash on 'Muslim extremists' as durruti02 just loves to do.

Who are you to set down what might or might not be the "responsibility" of a "leftist". Indeed, what do you believe that the army needs to be questioned about?

Gotta say, too, Violent Panda's claim that there are 'constitutional safeguards preventing the army from being used like the police' was a bit of a laugh. Albeit a twisted, dark one.

So, are you saying that there aren't constitutional safeguards in place, or is this some more of the legendary DU sneering?

Gotta say, too, I've been pretty fucking appalled at the spinelessness of the SP when it comes to dealing with flag-waving bollocks recently. Not challenging what is a very worrying public and popular sentiment at all.

So, what were you doing, oh spine-imbued one?

It's a bad situation where soldiers can just expect not just politicians but members of the public to fawn at their feet for the 'contribution' they've made to the fucking country. I wouldn't let any of my mates back from Iraq get away with it - tbh, my mates are nice lads. They wouldn't demand it.

And there you have it: Most soldiers don't give a toss for parades. They're a waste of time and energy that nowadays only serve to bolster the politicos. Neither do any of them give much of a toss about what the politicos think.

Even still - there's no fucking reason we should be 'thankful' for them serving as fucking tools in ruining the lives of millions of Iraqis, and it's fucking laughable that people can pull this 'economic victimhood' bullshit out of the bag in the context of this war.

Who the fuck, besides the media and their friends in the power-elite, are asking you to "be thankful", hmmm?

It's not fucking world war II - we're not fighting the Germans any more. It's not like a proper war where you can stay politically unaligned and just suppor the class - you have to support the real victims of oppression. The Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, and Somalian Muslims all extricated in this bogus "War on Terror".

Ah, I see you follow treelover's idea of a "hierarchy of oppression".

By the way, "extricated"?

Not saying we should start throwing rocks at homecoming troops - but until the left feels strong enough to turn up at one of these parades burning a Union Jack then we are, objectively, fucked.

Yep, because cheap symbolism will always win the day, and won't alienate people who might otherwise agree with you, eh?

 

[danny la rouge]

dennisr: I'm an optimist. I see the good in everyone.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree with all of this.

Unsurprising given that you both communicate in sloganese.

 

[dennisr]

Yep, because cheap symbolism will always win the day, and won't alienate people who might otherwise agree with you, eh?

Given his political grounding - cheap symbolism (at a safe distance from the 'oppressed' he cares for so dearly...) is all he will ever be good at.

 

[dennisr]

dennisr: I'm an optimist. I see the good in everyone.

- and its appreciated

 

[butchersapron]

And there you have it: Most soldiers don't give a toss for parades. They're a waste of time and energy that nowadays only serve to bolster the politicos. Neither do any of them give much of a toss about what the politicos think.

And there, precisely there, for those who can see it, is the gap - a gap that should be filled with politics. Not this Buffy Sainte-Marie moralistic bollocks we've been getting.

 

[danny la rouge]

Not this Buffy Sainte-Marie moralistic bollocks we've been getting.

 

[Nigel]

Some info here. on events after the Luton protets.

and a claim here by the BNP that:

Looks like arguments that the Far Right have rejected street activites as a tactic have been over estomated!!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Given his political grounding - cheap symbolism (at a safe distance from the 'oppressed' he cares for so dearly...) is all he will ever be good at.

Mmmm, I know, hence the sarcasm.

Seems to me that for people like DU any sentiment even vaguely expressing solidarity toward "the state" or "the troops" is going to be quantified as "patriotism", and treated by him (and his mini-me dylans) as support for the aims of the state, but the world is slightly more complex than that, and reductiveness that reduces everything to what is essentially "you're either with us or against us" misses the point. I know plenty of w/c (and indeed m/c) people who've mobilised against the war, but who would be disgusted at the butcher's apron being burned. Not because they agree with the state, but because the flag means something different to them than it does to the politicians and power-mongers - it means unity.

 

[durruti02]

And I am arguing that a patriotic military parade is a legitimate target for an anti war demonstration.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-10329634-details/Terror+on+the+dole/article.do

 

[treelover]

That blog that MC5 posted up is awful, its has no level of understanding at all, just blanket condemnation, the very thing it criticises from others

 

[durruti02]

Seems to me that for people like DU any sentiment even vaguely expressing solidarity toward "the state" or "the troops" is going to be quantified as "patriotism", and treated by him (and his mini-me dylans) as support for the aims of the state, but the world is slightly more complex than that, and reductiveness that reduces everything to what is essentially "you're either with us or against us" misses the point. I know plenty of w/c (and indeed m/c) people who've mobilised against the war, but who would be disgusted at the butcher's apron being burned. Not because they agree with the state, but because the flag means something different to them than it does to the politicians and power-mongers - it means unity.

indeed .. this is something these people clearly find hard to understand ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

And there, precisely there, for those who can see it, is the gap - a gap that should be filled with politics. Not this Buffy Sainte-Marie moralistic bollocks we've been getting.

Or even worse, a Donovan cover version of the Buffy Sainte Marie moralistic bollocks.

 

[treelover]

Sayful Islam, for one, is particularly proud of his contribution to Luton's hardline reputation. His exploits include covering the town with " Magnificent 19" posters glorifying the 11 September suicide bombers. "When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members," he says. "Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us."

blimey, and people here are surprised there is a reaction

this is the way to do it

Muhammad Sulaiman, president of the Islamic Cultural Society, the largest of the 14 mosques in Luton, dismisses al-Muhajiroun as "verbal diarrhoea".

"They are an extreme Right-wing group - the Muslim version of the BNP," he says disdainfully. "They think Muslims should dominate, just like the BNP thinks whites should dominate. They use Islam as a vehicle to promote their distorted beliefs, particularly to unemployed young bloods who are vulnerable."

 

[dennisr]

That blog that MC5 posted up is awful, its has no level of understanding at all, just blanket condemnation, the very thing it criticises from others

don't agree with you there - its shows the role of the BNP behind recent events

 

[ViolentPanda]

indeed .. this is something these people clearly find hard to understand ..

I suspect that's partly down to some elements of both the right and the left having a very fixed set of ideas about the union flag which may very well be "spot-on" in terms of a particular analysis of the union flags' meaning, but have little to do with the everyday feelings and ideas people might attach to it.
I mean, I see the flag in its' bloody historical context, but that's not all it's about.

And yes, I'm well aware of what a wishy-washy "typical bloody sociologist" sentiment that is.

 

[Idris2002]

.