The Black Hand
Unclean
Well, does it have any? 
Origins of the IWCA?
- Thread starter The Black Hand
- Start date
Black Propaganda!!!
It's all to see on their website at:
http://www.iwca.info/about.htm/
Or are you attempting to smear, Mr black hand?
It's all to see on their website at:
http://www.iwca.info/about.htm/
Or are you attempting to smear, Mr black hand?
Surprised to see absolutely no mention of Red Action in that IWCA history.
meanoldman said:
Yeah it's a big vague
Nice to know some people got together to decide how best to protect my interests. Don't remember being asked though.
"Working class rule in working class areas" means anything and nothing. In some places near me it could mean burning out black/asian families and kicking the shit out of gays.
Hawkeye Pearce
We're your friends man...
Stevil said:
How would working class interests be served by any of this precisely?
Stevil said:
whow - that one's notched too
Origins of the IWCA
Below are links to two features looking at the origins of the IWCA. Note the emphasis on rethinking past ideologies....
http://www.redaction.org/communities/declaration.html
http://www.redaction.org/communities/line_of.html
Hope these help.
Cheers,
Portman
Below are links to two features looking at the origins of the IWCA. Note the emphasis on rethinking past ideologies....
http://www.redaction.org/communities/declaration.html
http://www.redaction.org/communities/line_of.html
Hope these help.
Cheers,
Portman
icepick said:
It is a meaningless term. It’s just a glib statement with no substance. Which areas are working class? Who defines the areas? How will they rule themselves? How autonomous from the state will they be?
Most “working class areas” have a wide range of political views within them as well as a lot of apathy. Some of these views can be reactionary. There are some estates in East Lancashire that I wouldn’t want to live on with my views. Also what about an area that is predominately Muslim? What if they wanted to bring in some sort of Islamic dress code and so on.
I’m not saying that working class concerns are bound to be reactionary and/or racist? Far from it. I’ve got a lot of faith in my class without trying to glamorise or idolise it.
ernestolynch said:
No idea what this means.
However they want. That's the whole fucking point innit?
Origins of the IWCA
The function of a manifesto is to get the broad picture of what an organisation or group is attempting to achieve across is a relatively concise manner. Having read the IWCA manifesto, I think they have managed to do a good job of that. There is a serious discussion to be had on the meaning of class in the current social, political and economic climate but a manifesto is not the best place to pursue what can be a complicated and vexed question!
As for reactionary views within the working class, the IWCA is keenly aware of the existence of those and addresses them in a way that attempts to unite rather than fragment - as you may be aware, they do not pander to multiculturalism. In fact they have put in a lot of effort in analysing why multiculturalism is divisive.
Stevil said:
The function of a manifesto is to get the broad picture of what an organisation or group is attempting to achieve across is a relatively concise manner. Having read the IWCA manifesto, I think they have managed to do a good job of that. There is a serious discussion to be had on the meaning of class in the current social, political and economic climate but a manifesto is not the best place to pursue what can be a complicated and vexed question!
As for reactionary views within the working class, the IWCA is keenly aware of the existence of those and addresses them in a way that attempts to unite rather than fragment - as you may be aware, they do not pander to multiculturalism. In fact they have put in a lot of effort in analysing why multiculturalism is divisive.
The Black Hand
Unclean
The Unofficial Explanation - not from those who write party propaganda
The Night of the Big Plastic Spoons (ref. Long knives)
The Scene: A car screams down Bishops Avenue, and screeches to a halt. Out lumbers one of our intrepid hero’s. The Red Action leadership gather around a kitchen table with three chairs, on a dark night approx 1994/5. There’s a zimmer frame parked by the door. The wind howls, the lightening zaps, the curtains flap – was that a spook I saw go past? Or is s/he under and/or around the table??
The Analysis: ‘We’re getting a bit old for all this ain’t we?’ Pass me the Super Tennants. But wot’s worse, the filth are all over us. I had to flick one off my boot the other day. Yer right.
The Debate: Milliganesque – ‘what are we gonna do now, what are we gonna do now’? Well (dusting off old volumes of Lenin) we haven’t got any hope of dominating industrial and other workplace organising even though there’s NEVER been as many people IN employment (28,000,000, August 2003). SO -lets come up with a community based approach. Ok. Well Lenin did say participating in bourgeois democracy was essential. Yes, it does need shoring up as there’s millions of working people not on the electoral roll nor voting at all. We need to keep control so we must emphasise our uniqueness, and not allow other political considerations or solidarity. If we dress it up a bit with radical soundbites the stupid anarks who follow us will think encouraging voting is somehow liberation! Hey presto.
But what do we call it? Working Class Action? Working Class Justice? No, they’ll start to think they can do it themselves then. Let’s make it sound like a Professional Association, how about the Independent Working Class Association? There we go. Rather middle class and boring, a recipe for repeating the failings of traditional politicians. What more do we want?
Disclaimer: The events here are entirely fictional carried with a sense of fun. However, it is a fictional account of a non fictional process that led to the formation of the IWCA… The political comments contained within are a non-fictional analysis of these events. Also notice the appropriate use of question marks. Finally, you must distinguish between calling a name of an organisation ‘middle class’, and calling members or the politics of that organisation middle class. This fictional account is a working class tradition – e.g. Ian Bones “Anarchist”, EP Thompsons’ novel of the late 1980s, "The Skyaos papers" and V. Ruggieros’ “Crime and Fiction” (Verso, 2003) that looks for criminological insights through literature. Where analysis and politics are intertwined in novel form provoking thought.
The Night of the Big Plastic Spoons (ref. Long knives)
The Scene: A car screams down Bishops Avenue, and screeches to a halt. Out lumbers one of our intrepid hero’s. The Red Action leadership gather around a kitchen table with three chairs, on a dark night approx 1994/5. There’s a zimmer frame parked by the door. The wind howls, the lightening zaps, the curtains flap – was that a spook I saw go past? Or is s/he under and/or around the table??
The Analysis: ‘We’re getting a bit old for all this ain’t we?’ Pass me the Super Tennants. But wot’s worse, the filth are all over us. I had to flick one off my boot the other day. Yer right.
The Debate: Milliganesque – ‘what are we gonna do now, what are we gonna do now’? Well (dusting off old volumes of Lenin) we haven’t got any hope of dominating industrial and other workplace organising even though there’s NEVER been as many people IN employment (28,000,000, August 2003). SO -lets come up with a community based approach. Ok. Well Lenin did say participating in bourgeois democracy was essential. Yes, it does need shoring up as there’s millions of working people not on the electoral roll nor voting at all. We need to keep control so we must emphasise our uniqueness, and not allow other political considerations or solidarity. If we dress it up a bit with radical soundbites the stupid anarks who follow us will think encouraging voting is somehow liberation! Hey presto.
But what do we call it? Working Class Action? Working Class Justice? No, they’ll start to think they can do it themselves then. Let’s make it sound like a Professional Association, how about the Independent Working Class Association? There we go. Rather middle class and boring, a recipe for repeating the failings of traditional politicians. What more do we want?
Disclaimer: The events here are entirely fictional carried with a sense of fun. However, it is a fictional account of a non fictional process that led to the formation of the IWCA… The political comments contained within are a non-fictional analysis of these events. Also notice the appropriate use of question marks. Finally, you must distinguish between calling a name of an organisation ‘middle class’, and calling members or the politics of that organisation middle class. This fictional account is a working class tradition – e.g. Ian Bones “Anarchist”, EP Thompsons’ novel of the late 1980s, "The Skyaos papers" and V. Ruggieros’ “Crime and Fiction” (Verso, 2003) that looks for criminological insights through literature. Where analysis and politics are intertwined in novel form provoking thought.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Sorry mate, you're so far off target here that you're making yourself look daft - when was the last time you had a serious talk with some Red Action members - or even had a look at their re-appraisal of their own politics and consequent public and explicit rejection of leninism - or talked to the non RA people in AFA who've put their shoulders to the wheel.
I understand where the fears come from, but things change mate - of course there are going to be problems and pointing them out is the first step to coming towards some sort of collective understanding - but pulling the old 'you're leninists' trick simply doesn't work this time - because they're genuinely not leninists anymore!
I understand where the fears come from, but things change mate - of course there are going to be problems and pointing them out is the first step to coming towards some sort of collective understanding - but pulling the old 'you're leninists' trick simply doesn't work this time - because they're genuinely not leninists anymore!
The Black Hand
Unclean
I has no fear of being called daft... it really is the least of my worries what with the sudden appearance of cancer in the family... You are reading too much into what I wrote I think... I really don't have ANY dogmatic positions, but I am very healthily sceptical of certain forms and politics, and just because you SAY you are DEFINATELY NOT something doesn't mean you are not....It fact, it could indicate the opposite. I've never liked the elitism present from the Redaction, see in the link http://www.redaction.org/communities/declaration.html "The groups that are anti-Labour but also anti-IWCA are presumably resigned to doing nothing about it. Certainly they can expect to do nothing on their own." Apart from being 'nothing works without our party' bollocks THIS IS THE ARROGANCE OF LENIN STILL BREATHING - HE MUST BE KILLED... And I found that with a cursory reading, i suspect there's far more bollocks in there too.
I did alude to certain issues that are uncomfortable for the 'oh so sweet' formulation you portrayed... There are far more, but the dog will sleep for now.
I did alude to certain issues that are uncomfortable for the 'oh so sweet' formulation you portrayed... There are far more, but the dog will sleep for now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So sorry to hear that mate - i hope it works out all-right - got me fingers crossed and all that - maybe see you in Barnsely if the situation allows.
To the political point - i think the whole future success of the IWCA is predicated on Red Action losing whatever little control they currently have - that seems to me to be the essential situtation that they're actually working towards - that the idea gets taken up by w/c communities (with thier own local needs etc) and gets taken out of their hands - rather than an ever exanding empire in thier hands - how would they do that anyway?
Take care mate - hope things go well...
To the political point - i think the whole future success of the IWCA is predicated on Red Action losing whatever little control they currently have - that seems to me to be the essential situtation that they're actually working towards - that the idea gets taken up by w/c communities (with thier own local needs etc) and gets taken out of their hands - rather than an ever exanding empire in thier hands - how would they do that anyway?
Take care mate - hope things go well...
RubyToogood
RubyTwobikes
portman said:
Red Jezza had some IWCA literature with him in the pub the other day which I was perusing (not sure if it was the manifesto or what, it was a bit short on detail). I read this bit but didn't understand it. Can someone explain why multiculturalism is divisive and what the alternative is? (And what definition of multiculturalism is being used.)
Oh and was deeply unimpressed by the feeble paragraph relating to women's issues, which I think was largely about childcare.
Sorry if this is the wrong thread.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Rubby I think there are some old threads on some of these issues. For what it’s worth he’s my take on the multiculturalism issue, it’s not exactly the same as the IWCA but there is a little common ground.
The problem is it starts with what separates us rather than with what unites us. This does have some benefits as the issues it takes up deserve serious attention. There are however serious drawbacks to this position. First by focusing on the differences it basically leads to an acceptance that different racial (or ethnic if you prepare) groups are inherently different and therefore tension and conflict between them is inevitable. A preferable alternative is to take a purely ant-racists stance where you start with the position that all racism is wrong and must be challenged. Multiculturalism is in essence an attempt to accommodate different racial groups within a racist society without challenging that racism and instead merely attempts to mediate between them.
I have other problems with it as well, such as it completely ignoring class, but these arguments might take us of at a tangent. Some people on here do seam to oppose it on the grounds that it gives preferential treatment to minorities I want to be clear this is not my position.
I apologise for the piss poor quality of this post I’ve had a long day
The problem is it starts with what separates us rather than with what unites us. This does have some benefits as the issues it takes up deserve serious attention. There are however serious drawbacks to this position. First by focusing on the differences it basically leads to an acceptance that different racial (or ethnic if you prepare) groups are inherently different and therefore tension and conflict between them is inevitable. A preferable alternative is to take a purely ant-racists stance where you start with the position that all racism is wrong and must be challenged. Multiculturalism is in essence an attempt to accommodate different racial groups within a racist society without challenging that racism and instead merely attempts to mediate between them.
I have other problems with it as well, such as it completely ignoring class, but these arguments might take us of at a tangent. Some people on here do seam to oppose it on the grounds that it gives preferential treatment to minorities I want to be clear this is not my position.
I apologise for the piss poor quality of this post I’ve had a long day
ruby- i think most iwcaers agree on the bit about women
as for why red action arent mentioned on the origin bit is probably because the vast majority of people have never heard of them, also realistically if they had been mentioned some would have accused them of trying to hog the limelight
edit as an iwca supporter (not member) i'd have to say i pretty much agree with emy's post
as for why red action arent mentioned on the origin bit is probably because the vast majority of people have never heard of them, also realistically if they had been mentioned some would have accused them of trying to hog the limelight
edit as an iwca supporter (not member) i'd have to say i pretty much agree with emy's post
Sean
Well-Known Member
RubyToogood said:
You're right. The women's issues section is crap and I think (as RednBlack says) it's been discussed on a thread a while back. We've tried to take feedback seriously and will look to change wording and emphasis - and even practice i'd imagine - next time round.
As for multiculturalism, basic position is that a doctrine that emphasises diversity over solidarity, separateness over shared class interests, is ultimately going to lead to ethnic groups being treated differently on the grounds that they're special cases, and the logical extension of that is a BNP-like "rights for whites" counterposition. I think the best stuff I've seen on this is by Kenan Malik or in previous debates in threads on here.
past caring
The Cathars were right
@ Ruby - I've saved several of the "multiculturalism" threads - PM if you want them.
@ TBH - sorry to hear about your bad news - all the best for that.........
Unfortunately, it seems there's also a family "illness" of having no modesty - it appears all of their quota went to you. TBH - the new EP Thompson!
More seriously, if you think any of the above was "analysis and politics..... intertwined in novel form provoking thought." you need to catch yourself on a bit - it's just the same old, same old.
And I can't help thinking that the "fictional account" is really a cover for a lack of any evidence.
1) RA is run by MI5? Clearly the implication - "was that a spook I saw go past? Or is s/he under and/or around the table??"
Evidence please - or a retraction.
2) "‘We’re getting a bit old for all this ain’t we?’ Pass me the Super Tennants. But wot’s worse, the filth are all over us."
An "analysis" straight from the books of No Platform/"Real AFA" - peacetime warriors to a man (and ineffective ones, to boot).
Still, I'm much more interested in a reply to my post on the last thread - the one where you teased us with the "revalation" (but only by PM) of alternative and succesful models to the IWCA's approach.......I don't like quoting myself at length, but needs must.
I strongly suspect that TBH is talking about Sunderland here and TWAFA. That'll be the same TWAFA that works hand in in hand with Searchlight and is sponsored by the New Labour City Council. That'll be the same Sunderland where the fash are climbing all over the furniture - 13,000 votes city wide last May iirc.......
@ TBH - sorry to hear about your bad news - all the best for that.........
The Black Hand said:
Unfortunately, it seems there's also a family "illness" of having no modesty - it appears all of their quota went to you. TBH - the new EP Thompson!
More seriously, if you think any of the above was "analysis and politics..... intertwined in novel form provoking thought." you need to catch yourself on a bit - it's just the same old, same old.
And I can't help thinking that the "fictional account" is really a cover for a lack of any evidence.
1) RA is run by MI5? Clearly the implication - "was that a spook I saw go past? Or is s/he under and/or around the table??"
Evidence please - or a retraction.
2) "‘We’re getting a bit old for all this ain’t we?’ Pass me the Super Tennants. But wot’s worse, the filth are all over us."
An "analysis" straight from the books of No Platform/"Real AFA" - peacetime warriors to a man (and ineffective ones, to boot).
Still, I'm much more interested in a reply to my post on the last thread - the one where you teased us with the "revalation" (but only by PM) of alternative and succesful models to the IWCA's approach.......I don't like quoting myself at length, but needs must.
past caring said:
I strongly suspect that TBH is talking about Sunderland here and TWAFA. That'll be the same TWAFA that works hand in in hand with Searchlight and is sponsored by the New Labour City Council. That'll be the same Sunderland where the fash are climbing all over the furniture - 13,000 votes city wide last May iirc.......
RubyToogood
RubyTwobikes
past caring said:
I would, cheers, check PMs in a bit. Sorry for pruning those threads! If there's ever a thread that covers an issue in a fairly definitive way and would be useful being kept as a reference, send me a PM and I'll star it (starred threads are preserved from being pruned).
montevideo
New Member
stevil raises some valid points which people seem happy not to answer. I suppose i'm directing my questions to working class anarchists here (as opposed to class-struggle anarchists or the working class authoritian left):
1. who actually decides where the working class community starts? And where the working class community ends what is beyond that? Another working class community? How then are borders defined?
2. rule. Who rules over whom? Surely as an anarchist you be be very wary of being ruled over, regardless of the class background of those doing the ruling?
1. who actually decides where the working class community starts? And where the working class community ends what is beyond that? Another working class community? How then are borders defined?
2. rule. Who rules over whom? Surely as an anarchist you be be very wary of being ruled over, regardless of the class background of those doing the ruling?
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