Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[PaoloSanchez]

Here's an interesting piece that deserves a more considered response than the usual tag-team, shouting-over trolling that happens here.

Opinion | The End of Meat Is Here (Published 2020)

If you care about the working poor, about racial justice, and about climate change, you have to stop eating animals.

www.nytimes.com

Oh, and seeing as the diet of the author seems to be of critical importance to some people, I looked it up. He's neither a vegan or a fully veggie.

Well, 2 and a half years later, we haven't quite seen the "end of meat", however I'm happy to see the progress that is being made. More awareness, more availability in supermarkets and eateries. I'll take that.

Just over a month ago I attended Vegan Camp Out 2022 at Stamford Hall in Leicestershire with my family. It was a fantastic festival. Music, food, great talks and all round good vibes. I've been to the last 3 events. In 2019 about 7,500 attended, 2021 11,500 and this year over 18,000. I've already got tickets for 2023, apparently Romesh is headlining. The VCO numbers give an indication of where the trajectory is heading and plenty of reasons to be positive. Still a looooong way to go, but we're getting there.

 

[Pickman's model]

Here's an interesting piece that deserves a more considered response than the usual tag-team, shouting-over trolling that happens here.

Opinion | The End of Meat Is Here (Published 2020)

If you care about the working poor, about racial justice, and about climate change, you have to stop eating animals.

www.nytimes.com

Oh, and seeing as the diet of the author seems to be of critical importance to some people, I looked it up. He's neither a vegan or a fully veggie.

still waiting for you to come back on your 73% claims, you know - the sciency ones you were on about before you became beguiled by philosophy graduates and professors of fiction.

 

[editor]

Well, 2 and a half years later, we haven't quite seen the "end of meat", however I'm happy to see the progress that is being made. More awareness, more availability in supermarkets and eateries. I'll take that.

Just over a month ago I attended Vegan Camp Out 2022 at Stamford Hall in Leicestershire with my family. It was a fantastic festival. Music, food, great talks and all round good vibes. I've been to the last 3 events. In 2019 about 7,500 attended, 2021 11,500 and this year over 18,000. I've already got tickets for 2023, apparently Romesh is headlining. The VCO numbers give an indication of where the trajectory is heading and plenty of reasons to be positive. Still a looooong way to go, but we're getting there.

There is indeed a huge way to go with worldwide meat production still rising and causing a major impact on climate change. But yes, there are some hopeful signs!

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I was astounded to find that Mexico has one of the largest percentages of their population who is meat-free:

This statistic presents the share of people who define themselves as vegetarians, flexitarians or vegans in Mexico as of March 2016. On a survey, 19 percent of Mexican respondents claimed to be vegetarians, whereas nine percent said they were vegans. The share of vegans in Brazil stood at eight percent.

Share of vegetarians, flexitarians and vegans in Mexico 2016 | Statista

This statistic presents the share of people who define themselves as vegetarians, flexitarians or vegans in Mexico as of March 2016.

www.statista.com

Nineteen percent is a pretty good start. I guess it shouldn't have surprised me because I know several Mexican vegans, one regularly volunteers to cater left-wing events. If you look at traditional cooking, it's all tomatillos, chilis, corn, beans, squash, nopales, plantains, tropical fruits, etc.

Some of the traditional farming methods are interesting too. There's an existing garden system in a section of Mexico City that used canals to water crops. Larger canals were for boat traffic, smaller ones for irrigation:

The canals of Lake Xochimilco were initially created along with artificial agricultural plots called chinampas. Chinampas were invented by the pre-Hispanic peoples of the region around 1,000 years ago as a way to increase agricultural production. On the shallow waters of the lakes, rafts were constructed of juniper branches. Onto these rafts floating on the water, lakebed mud and soil were heaped and crops planted. These rafts, tied to juniper trees, would eventually sink and a new one be built to replace it. Over time, these sunken rafts would form square or rectangular islands, held in place in part by the juniper trees. As these chinampa islands propagated, areas of the lake were reduced to canals. These “floating gardens” were an important part of the economy of the Aztec Empire by the time the Spanish arrived.[33][34][35] Today, only about 5,000 chinampas, all affixed to the lake bottom, still exist in their original form, surrounded by canals and used for agriculture. The rest have become solid ground and urbanized. In the center of Xochimilco, there are about 200 chinampas, covering an area of 1,800 hectares.

Xochimilco - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's also a similar system underlying Phoenix, AZ. It was built by the Hohokum people:

The watery secret of ancient North America

The 180 miles of canals that criss-cross Phoenix, Arizona, allow millions of people to live in the sun-baked desert. But most people don't know the story of their mysterious origins.

www.bbc.com

 

[editor]

This is priceless.

Vegan bacon producer La Vie has been accused of unfair competition by a French pork lobby.

INAPORC claims that the company’s plant-based lardons are too similar to conventional pork alternatives, thereby copying the originals.

Too Realistic? Pork Lobby Accuses Vegan Bacon Brand Of Unfair Competition

After receiving backlash from meat producers, vegan bacon brand La Vie has taken on the French pork lobby in its characteristically humorous way

plantbasednews.org

 

[spitfire]

This is priceless.

Too Realistic? Pork Lobby Accuses Vegan Bacon Brand Of Unfair Competition

After receiving backlash from meat producers, vegan bacon brand La Vie has taken on the French pork lobby in its characteristically humorous way

plantbasednews.org

I had to try as many vegan bacons as I could get my hands on for work recently.

That one is the only one that gets anywhere close. It's very good.

The rest were all various shades of disgusting.

 

[ddraig]

I had to try as many vegan bacons as I could get my hands on for work recently.

That one is the only one that gets anywhere close. It's very good.

The rest were all various shades of disgusting.

Did you try Yaycon?
Lots of people rate that

YAYCON | Chiki Monkey

Yaycon is our own personally-created spin on a vegan-friendly alternative to bacon. Yaycon has got an amazing texture accompanied with smoky and salty flavours. It is so versatile, you are bound to find many simple ways to jazz up any meal and all of this with no piggies involved along the...

www.chikimonkey.co.uk

 

[spitfire]

Did you try Yaycon?
Lots of people rate that

YAYCON | Chiki Monkey

Yaycon is our own personally-created spin on a vegan-friendly alternative to bacon. Yaycon has got an amazing texture accompanied with smoky and salty flavours. It is so versatile, you are bound to find many simple ways to jazz up any meal and all of this with no piggies involved along the...

www.chikimonkey.co.uk

No, missed that one but it looks just like some of the other ones we had. Some of them were almost palatable depending on how you cooked them to be absolutely fair. Some were just vile.

 

[CNT36]

Had some This isn't bacon in a burger eating out during the summer. It wasn't bad.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Hopefully this signifies the beginning of the end for the animal torture industries:

Biden backs lab-grown meat

To help the country's future food security, Biden has said the U.S. government will invest in "cultivating alternative food sources" and other biotechnologies.

www.newsweek.com

 

[editor]

Interesting comments here from the Senior Researcher in Environment and Health at the University of Oxford's Environmental Change Institute:

Based now in the UK, his research has been shared around the world about the "very little chance of avoiding dangerous levels of climate change" without a shift in eating habits toward more plant-based diets.

According to Springmann, if everyone adopted a plant-based diet by 2050 it would save about "eight gigatons of carbon dioxide equivalent emissions."

"The savings of 8 [gigatons] would be the second biggest emitter. That's after China's emissions, but a quarter more than the US's and double those of Europe."

One reason for this is that "beef is more than 100-times as emissions-intensive as legumes," according to Springmann in a 2019 CNN article.

Beside less greenhouse gas emissions, lower meat production would save energy, water and land use around the world. And eating less meat lowers risks of heart disease, obesity and other health problems.

He grew up in a sausage-loving country, but now advocates for plant-based diets to fight the climate crisis | CNN

Beside less greenhouse gas emissions, lower meat production would save energy, water and land use around the world. And eating less meat lowers risks of heart disease, obesity and other health problems.

edition.cnn.com

 

[editor]

And another depressing reality of the meat industry:

As demand for meat has risen, conditions for animals have worsened. To raise those tens of billions of chickens, pigs, and cows, farmers and meat companies have prized efficiency over animal welfare and environmental conservation. The resulting factory farming model, first built in the United States and Europe in the post-World War II era, has since spread across the globe.

By one estimate, almost three-quarters of farmed land animals in the world are reared in factory farms, in which they’re crammed tightly into industrial warehouses and given little to no fresh air, sunlight, or access to the outdoors. And nearly all of the land animals raised for food are chickens — around 95 percent of them.

The rising demand for meat, especially beef, doesn’t just mean more animals suffering on farms. It has also destroyed wildlife habitats in the Amazon rainforest and elsewhere in the tropics.

Agriculture — clearing trees for farmland — is the overwhelming cause of deforestation. In 1700, just 9 percent of the world’s forests and wild grasslands had been cleared for agriculture. Today, it’s 46 percent, primarily for livestock grazing, growing crops like soy to feed pigs and chickens, or for the production of palm and other oils.

Meat production doubly affects climate change, too. Not only do the animals we farm emit greenhouse gases, all that related deforestation releases carbon stored in trees, contributing to climate change and accounting for up to 10 percent of human-induced carbon dioxide emissions.

Now is the best time in human history to be alive (unless you’re a farm animal)

Animal welfare has suffered as humanity has improved, but there’s hope on the horizon.

www.vox.com

 

[Dandred]

Thoughtful protest here

Video shows vegans throw roses on meat at counter to 'pay homage to the fallen'

Vegans threw flowers at the meat in order to 'pay homage' to the animals

www.ladbible.com

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Swiss vote on phasing out torture farming today. Polls are closer than I expected, last one was 47% against, 52% in favour. I suspect the Swiss will vote to continue the mass torture of animals, but still possible they could go the other way.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Swiss vote on phasing out torture farming today. Polls are closer than I expected, last one was 47% against, 52% in favour. I suspect the Swiss will vote to continue the mass torture of animals, but still possible they could go the other way.

Predictably defeated. So far the Swiss are 64.8% pro-torture Voters reject ethical overhaul of animal farming rules

 

[editor]

This is a bit like what's going on here:

Scientists agree that developed nations need to eat less meat and shift to a plant-based diet, according to a new study in the journal Sustainability, but newspapers cover the issue as an open debate.

Newspaper coverage of dietary change is reminiscent of widely criticised coverage of climate change earlier in this century, the study says, which presented the human causes of global warming as debatable long after scientists had reached consensus.

“There is clear scientific evidence that diets in high-income countries need to shift away from animal-based foods and towards plant-based foods not only to reduce GHGs (greenhouse gases) to address climate change but also to reduce resource use (e.g., land, water) and pollution,” write the scientists from Maryland’s Towson University and the University of Wisconsin, “but many newspaper journalists are presenting ‘both sides’ and, therefore, covering the issue as an open debate.”

Journalists Are Making The Same Mistake With Dietary Change They Made With Climate Change: Study

Scientists agree that developed nations need to eat less meat and shift to a plant-based diet, but newspapers cover the issue as an open question, repeating a mistake they made covering climate change.

www.forbes.com

And here's the study referred to

This study adds to the literature on media coverage of environmental and public health issues to improve our understanding of how challenges, stakeholders, and individual-, organizational-, and policy-level solutions are presented to the public.

The scientific evidence showing that we must dramatically reduce FLW and shift diets away from animal-based foods to create a sustainable food system and address current and emerging environmental injustices is clear. Yet, our comparison of media coverage of FLW and diet shifts highlights important differences in coverage within the U.S.

In the case of diet shifts, news coverage does not reflect the evidence and urgency with which this change should happen to address climate change and myriad additional environmental, social, and economic challenges. Still, there are significant efforts underway to address both issues; for FLW the U.S. government is leading and partnering with businesses and organizations, and work aimed at shifting diets is proceeding despite resistance from the U.S. government and “both sides” framing in newspaper articles. These results underscore the need for communication efforts that accurately portray these issues and promote impactful strategies to journalists, policymakers, and the public.

A Tale of Two Urgent Food System Challenges: Comparative Analysis of Approaches to Reduce High-Meat Diets and Wasted Food as Covered in U.S. Newspapers

To improve food system sustainability, it is critical to reduce food loss and waste (FLW) and shift away from high-meat diets. We conducted a qualitative content analysis of 238 newspaper articles (2018–2020) to compare media framing and stakeholder involvement. For both issues, newspaper...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Karl Masks]

This would be made a damn site easier if my local shops actually sold stuff. Instead they discontinue tofu in favour of some plant based kebab ready meal nonsense. Surely that's not the way to go

 

[Pickman's model]

Predictably defeated. So far the Swiss are 64.8% pro-torture Voters reject ethical overhaul of animal farming rules

well, of the 52.3% turnout 64.8% are anyway.

 

[Funky_monks]

From the abstract of the above article:

"We conducted a qualitative content analysis of 238 newspaper articles (2018–2020) to compare media framing and stakeholder involvement. For both issues, newspaper coverage often called for individual-level behavior change. Coverage of how consumers can reduce FLW was more detailed compared to diet change and portrayed numerous organizations and government agencies working in partnerships to reduce FLW. Coverage of diet change efforts portrayed substantial disagreement, including legislative efforts to restrict labeling of alternative meat and dairy products. Journalists covering new evidence on the need to shift diets for sustainability often quoted both the lead researcher and an opponent with ties to the livestock industry. Inclusion of “both sides” was similar to previous media coverage that presented climate change as an open debate for years"

It's an article exploring how the press frames the narrative around sustainability. FFS, didn't even need to read past the abstract on that one if you didn't want to. It's got no new evidence to support the assertion that we should be moving to an entirely plant based diet, other than the authors opinion. I despair at people's ability to read sometimes.

In fact, it even includes livestock as part of the solution:

A Tale of Two Urgent Food System Challenges: Comparative Analysis of Approaches to Reduce High-Meat Diets and Wasted Food as Covered in U.S. Newspapers

 

[Funky_monks]

Since we are always quoting Poore and Nemeck (2018) (and the now myriad articles that are based on it), here;s an analysis by scientists who are not me (so no vested interest) of how one of the Guardian articles that quoted it:

Guardian story on climate impacts of diet gets mixed reviews from scientists

This is without the articles I posted that challenge the findings in that paper.

 

[Cid]

Funky_monks you come across Ffinlo Costain? Been listening to his/his org's podcast (I listen to stupidly large amounts of podcasts, smallholder friend mentioned it on fb), latest is specifcally on Poore and Nemecek and 'carbon tunnel vision', includes someone who's worked with them. Farm gate podcast on whichever podcast vehicle.

 

[editor]

Amen.

There is a snarky, self-assured, and defensive contrarianism to the knee-jerk anti-vegan position that’s every bit as juvenile as spilling milk on a supermarket floor. We can’t start having serious conversations about ecologically necessary changes to agriculture and the food system—whether these take us to small farms or cell-based proteins—until we’re willing to consider taking meat, eggs, and dairy off the menu. And that means recognizing that the Animal Rebellion kids—and, yes, the rest of those pesky vegans—are far more right than most would want to acknowledge.

If You Care About Climate Change, Stop Mocking Vegans

The cringey protests over the weekend got one thing right: Animal agriculture isn't sustainable.

newrepublic.com

 

[Funky_monks]

Funky_monks you come across Ffinlo Costain? Been listening to his/his org's podcast (I listen to stupidly large amounts of podcasts, smallholder friend mentioned it on fb), latest is specifcally on Poore and Nemecek and 'carbon tunnel vision', includes someone who's worked with them. Farm gate podcast on whichever podcast vehicle.

No, I haven't.

I'm not mega podcast-y but my gf is and I'm slowly coming round to them.


Although I spend so much time reading research, talking to farmers and feeding into the farm at work that I sometimes think I spend a bit too much time talking about/thinking about food and farming/sustainable ag.

I shall look them up - there has been so much done since 2018, but that one paper (moreso the guardian article that totally exaggerates it) feeds really nicely into a vegan evangelist narrative, that it's become almost like a religion to some, who seem to think "the science" is overwhelmingly behind them and has set the whole conversation back years and has softened the public up for big business buying up vast tracts of land for carbon offsetting.
Its quite worrying

(see a million unhinged posts on this thread)

 

[SpookyFrank]

Right yes. Manure definitely not worth money and therefore dumped, gotcha.

Soil leaching occurs when fert is spread at the wrong time and or close to waterways.

There's no excuse for that, which is why its illegal.

Weird logic to extend that to "fertilising crops bad" but there ya go.

Maybe I should start referring to these people as "starvation enthusiasts"

Oh look, they are all dumping shit into rivers after all.

Two-thirds of cattle farms in north Devon cause river pollution | Farming | The Guardian

Nearly nine in 10 farms inspected failed to comply with regulations, according to a report from the Environment Agency

amp.theguardian.com

Even though they're not allowed to. Just imagine.

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh look, they are all dumping shit into rivers after all.

Two-thirds of cattle farms in north Devon cause river pollution | Farming | The Guardian

Nearly nine in 10 farms inspected failed to comply with regulations, according to a report from the Environment Agency

amp.theguardian.com

Even though they're not allowed to. Just imagine.

You haven't read the EA report linked to have you?

If you had, you'd know it confirms exactly what I have been saying in the thread about leaching from poor storage and spreading it as fertiliser incorrectly.

Honestly - you'd think you'd embarrassed yourself enough with the whole "plants don't need fertilising" bollocks.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Oh look, they are all dumping shit into rivers after all.

Two-thirds of cattle farms in north Devon cause river pollution | Farming | The Guardian

Nearly nine in 10 farms inspected failed to comply with regulations, according to a report from the Environment Agency

amp.theguardian.com

Even though they're not allowed to. Just imagine.

Sorry, but this article can be easily dismissed using the following excuses...

1. The Guardian tho:
   Apparently this newspaper cannot be relied upon to report in a balanced and accurate manner and therefore can be safely ignored.
   
   
2. Militant vegan evangelists are entirely responsible for the shit created by animal agriculture:
   If vegans weren't such obnoxious and unreasonable zealots, normal regular folk would not be put off by them, and would be more inclined to reduce their demand for the by-products of biblical scale cruelty to animals.
   
   
3. Animal poop is extremely valuable:
   No sane farmer would dispose of it in such a reckless manner. It would be like flushing gold bars down the toilet.
   Animal shit is absolutely essential for growing the very same vegetables that vegans eat, and therefore it would be impossible for vegans to survive without the existence of animal ag.
   
   We can safely dismiss reports of permaculture stock free veganic farming as pure tofu eating woke woo...
   
   

   Rise of the vegan vegetable: the farmers who shun animal manure | Patrick Barkham

   Vegans are increasingly looking for ways to grow their fruit, vegetables and cereals without animal manure

   www.theguardian.com
   ( the Guardian again )
   
   
   

   Does Environmentally Sustainable Farming Require Domesticated Animals? - Stray Dog Institute

   Stockfree organic agriculture produces food sustainably without synthetic agrichemicals or farmed animal byproducts.

   straydoginstitute.org

 

[SpookyFrank]

You haven't read the EA report linked to have you?

If you had, you'd know it confirms exactly what I have been saying in the thread about leaching from poor storage and spreading it as fertiliser incorrectly.

When they talk about not enough storage, what do you suppose is happening to the waste that doesn't fit in the available storage? Reckon the farmer's putting it in the back of his car in bin bags and driving it to the tip?

I can tell you exactly what happens, they spread it on the fields not for fertilisation but to get rid of it. It then ends up in water courses. Why you're making excuses for that, and what difference you think those excuses make to poisoned ecosystems, I really couldn't give a shit tbh.

E2a: And they're spreading the muck onto pastures, not crops. Pastures which don't require fertiliser because they've got cattle shitting all over them anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, but this article can be easily dismissed using the following excuses...

1. The Guardian tho:
   Apparently this newspaper cannot be relied upon to report in a balanced and accurate manner and therefore can be safely ignored.
   
   
2. Militant vegan evangelists are entirely responsible for the shit created by animal agriculture:
   If vegans weren't such obnoxious and unreasonable zealots, normal regular folk would not be put off by them, and would be more inclined to reduce their demand for the by-products of biblical scale cruelty to animals.
   
   
3. Animal poop is extremely valuable:
   No sane farmer would dispose of it in such a reckless manner. It would be like flushing gold bars down the toilet.
   Animal shit is absolutely essential for growing the very same vegetables that vegans eat, and therefore it would be impossible for vegans to survive without the existence of animal ag.
   
   We can safely dismiss reports of permaculture stock free veganic farming as pure tofu eating woke woo...
   
   

   Rise of the vegan vegetable: the farmers who shun animal manure | Patrick Barkham

   Vegans are increasingly looking for ways to grow their fruit, vegetables and cereals without animal manure

   www.theguardian.com
   ( the Guardian again )
   
   
   

   Does Environmentally Sustainable Farming Require Domesticated Animals? - Stray Dog Institute

   Stockfree organic agriculture produces food sustainably without synthetic agrichemicals or farmed animal byproducts.

   straydoginstitute.org

anyone who has ever tried flushing gold bars down the toilet will know they don't move but remain stuck in the pan because they're so fucking heavy

 

[Funky_monks]

We can safely dismiss reports of permaculture stock free veganic farming as pure tofu eating woke woo...

Presumably you can provide plenty of peer reviewed research about the wonderful surpluses generated by this method of agriculture.

Christ, even most permaculture uses animals

 

[SpookyFrank]

anyone who has ever tried flushing gold bars down the toilet will know they don't move but remain stuck in the pan because they're so fucking heavy

I have this on good authority from Rishi Sunak's plumber. He gets called out every year on tax return deadline day.