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Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

WouldBe said:
And yet round here you can put meat and bones in the green bin for composting. :hmm:
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As you can in Lambeth

What happens to your food waste​

Your food waste is collected with garden waste and is composted. We use an enclosed, intensive method of composting, with accurate temperature control and monitoring. This makes sure the waste is fully sanitised before it's matured and screened for use.
After three months it will have been transformed into nutrient-rich compost, which is used in parks, gardens and agriculture, helping to grow more food. Compost is also available to donate to local community gardening projects, please email
 
SpookyFrank said:
Do you know what 'artificial' means?
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That was the point. Before humans started interfering animals would roam all over the place shitting as they went and plants would die back and rot down returning their nutrients to the soil. So no artificial fertilizer was needed. When humans started dividing things up with walls and hedges lots of animals couldn't get in, when the crops were harvested all the plant was removed from the field e.g. the wheat to be milled and the straw for bedding or cattle food so nutrients were being constantly removed hence the need for artificial fertilizer to put the nutrients back.

I'm surprised that needs to be spelled out. :(
 
WouldBe said:
And that says you can recycle meat and bones. :hmm:
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You can compost meat and bones, but it requires a good understanding of composting. To do it successfully, the meat and bones need to be in the center of the pile and to "cook" at the high end of the possible temperature range to remove potential pathogens. I'd only do this only with a contained composting system. A municipal composting operation could probably do this by heating it and then composting it.
 
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WouldBe said:
That was the point. Before humans started interfering animals would roam all over the place shitting as they went and plants would die back and rot down returning their nutrients to the soil. So no artificial fertilizer was needed. When humans started dividing things up with walls and hedges lots of animals couldn't get in, when the crops were harvested all the plant was removed from the field e.g. the wheat to be milled and the straw for bedding or cattle food so nutrients were being constantly removed hence the need for artificial fertilizer to put the nutrients back.

I'm surprised that needs to be spelled out. :(
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Indeed - artificial fertiliser wasn't possible on any scale until after the invention of the Haber process in 1909 (ish), probably wasn't hugely widespread until the "green revolution" of the 1950s - before then fert was pretty much all manure, crop rotations, animal byproducts or slash and burn agriculture.

And, say what you like about it, but it's very difficult to argue that it didn't make massive steps towards alleviating starvation, indeed Borlaug (who pioneered the "green revolution" - of which chemical fertiliser was a key part) was awarded the Nobel peace prize for just this and was accredited with saving a billion people from starvation.

The challenge for agriculture is how we move away from fossil fuel derived synthetic fertilisers whilst still managing to feed the world cheaply, efficiently and sustainably.

We have to grow crops whether you envision a meatless utopia or not, and despite some fairly bonkers assertions to the contrary (clearly biology is not everyone's strong suit), we need to fertilise them somehow. The driver away from fossil fuel derived synthetic fert at the moment is proving to be the massive price rises of all fossil fuel and its products that we are seeing at the moment. This is forcing farmers to consider bringing animals back into arable rotations, for example (some early adopters concerned with the implications of fossil fuels and reducing emissions were already doing this). This transition has to be phased or you end up with situations like those found in Sri Lanka:

‘It will be hard to find a farmer left’: Sri Lanka reels from rash fertiliser ban

This is why I used the term "starvation enthusiast" earlier - despite claiming to be somehow on the left, they want to see things that would push the price of food through the roof and lead to more volatility on yield, those things quite literally kill people.

To add, re biodiversity: There are one or two people trying multispecies arable plots too, to enrich habitat, but this is in its infancy.
 
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I compost EVERYTHING which was carbon-based. Even old woolly jumpers and feather duvets. Get a big enough heap which generates a shitload of heat, keep it moist (no rats) and aerated(No rats) and even pernicious bindweed roots and the dogs denuded, half-chewed marrowbones will break down over a season.
I still never have enough compost for the allotments though, despite knocking out several tonnes a year.

I do agree that eating meat does need to be reassessed - I generally only eat chicken and stuff like rabbit, and the odd geese, pheasant (and other goodies the Norfolk gun club throws my way because their Sunday clay shoot borders my wood). Don't much like venison though, which is a shame cos there is a lot of bloody deer about. O, and the odd sausage when I cave in to sweethearts earnest pleas. The cows and sheep next door to me (as well as the gun club) use grazing marsh - no crops can be grown cos it won't support heavy plant, so I do think animals grazed on a herbal ley, on non-agricultural land, have a place to play in a balanced eco-system.
 
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campanula said:
I compost EVERYTHING which was carbon-based. Even old woolly jumpers and feather duvets. Get a big enough heap which generates a shitload of heat, keep it moist (no rats) and aerated(No rats) and even pernicious bindweed roots and the dogs denuded, half-chewed marrowbones will break down over a season.
I still never have enough compost for the allotments though, despite knocking out several tonnes a year.

I do agree that eating meat does need to be reassessed - I generally only eat chicken and stuff like rabbit, and the odd geese, pheasant (and other goodies the Norfolk gun club throws my way because their Sunday clay shoot borders my wood). Don't much like venison though, which is a shame cos there is a lot of bloody deer about. O, and the odd sausage when I cave in to sweethearts earnest pleas. The cows and sheep next door to me (as well as the gun club) use grazing marsh - no crops can be grown cos it won't support heavy plant, so I do think animals grazed on a herbal ley, on non-agricultural land, have a place to play in a balanced eco-system.
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I've never composted meat because I never waste any. Any fat etc goes in the dogs. Bones aren't a problem, you just pop them in the bottom of the oven when you are cooking something else and that dries them out. I had a chipper anyway, they go through that, basically I've made rough bonemeal.

Re: your second part - nobody on this thread at all (I think) has said that the livestock sector doesn't need to change, in fact, in the mists of time though it was, I think my first post on this thread contained the phrase: "Agriculture needs to change". Lots of people (and I include lots of farmers in this) would agree.

Sustainability is a major preoccupation in the agriculture world, and whilst some people may pay lip service to it, lots are genuinely interested, but simple, one sentence blanket approaches are almost insulting in their simplicity and often seem to come from people who have clearly never tried to grow anything, nor seem to realise just how we have come to have such an abundance of cheap food.
 
Tbf,Funky_monks , I wouldn't really say I compost meat (because I have a scavenging sheepdog) but I do compost cooked food and stuff like bread. I don't fertilise any of my permanent plants...but annual crops are removed from the whole process of sowing growing decaying because they are whipped out of the equation at the point of having absorbed the maximum nutrients available. If they lay around on and in the soil (like leaves, stems and roots) the soil would enable the transformation of energy (calories) without requiring continual additions, surely. I expect yields might be much smaller though.
Unfortunately, I daydreamed, idled in the greenhouses or crept off for a ciggie, whenever we did plant science at hort.school, so I am woefully lacking in the theoretical side of things...apart from what I have (painfully, and slowly) observed on my own plot.

Where I live, it isn't uncommon to actually see the topsoil blowing away, like a freaking 1930's dustbowl. Massive, open, flat fields, tilled to destruction. It isn't a hopeful or edifying sight and I am trying very hard to try to fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge because I don't want to fuck up the little bit of land I own...and fear for my grandchildren.
 
To those who seem to think they know better than the person who's lived here for 30 years: there are NO food waste collection services on my council estate and never have been.

Even if I wanted to, there is no facility to deposit such waste, and if anyone would like to come and see that with their own eyes, I'd be happy to show them exactly where all the general waste and recycling rubbish goes.

And yes, it is shameful.
 
campanula said:
Tbf,Funky_monks , I wouldn't really say I compost meat (because I have a scavenging sheepdog) but I do compost cooked food and stuff like bread. I don't fertilise any of my permanent plants...but annual crops are removed from the whole process of sowing growing decaying because they are whipped out of the equation at the point of having absorbed the maximum nutrients available. If they lay around on and in the soil (like leaves, stems and roots) the soil would enable the transformation of energy (calories) without requiring continual additions, surely. I expect yields might be much smaller though.
Unfortunately, I daydreamed, idled in the greenhouses or crept off for a ciggie, whenever we did plant science at hort.school, so I am woefully lacking in the theoretical side of things...apart from what I have (painfully, and slowly) observed on my own plot.

Where I live, it isn't uncommon to actually see the topsoil blowing away, like a freaking 1930's dustbowl. Massive, open, flat fields, tilled to destruction. It isn't a hopeful or edifying sight and I am trying very hard to try to fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge because I don't want to fuck up the little bit of land I own...and fear for my grandchildren.
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Where are you? Over east?

The problem is that in that postwar period, farmers were encouraged to produce as much food as humanly possible, mechanise, etc etc - the solution to that within the context of the "green revolution" was high yielding varieties that required lots of fert, and to rely on that synthetic fert. Fences and hedges went, fields were made bigger etc etc to accommodate it, the "barley barons" no longer had to have the hassle of farming stock if they didn't want and so on, and, given that the average age of a farmer is 60, lots still have the "feed the nation" mindset. Obviously since the mid/late 90s, environment schemes have come into play, but none of them really address the cropping area (within arable, at least), preferring instead to take land out of production (margins etc) for that.

The good news is that that mindset is going away, and farmers are starting to do things like undersowing so that they don't lose soil. Its much less common now to see bare fields than it was, and much less use of the plough (potatoes notwithstanding). Especially useful to undersow with something like clover if you have sheep to follow the crop. Things that became unlinked, are starting to be linked again.
 
WouldBe said:
And that says you can recycle meat and bones. :hmm:
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"We collect food waste from properties that have a wheelie bin"

Properties on a high rise estate tend not to have wheelie bins as it might be a bit tricky for the waste truck to fit in the lift :facepalm:

And, look. If only you'd bother to read the actual fucking link:

We currently collect food waste from a small number of estates but we will be expanding the scheme to all estates in the next few years. We do not collect food waste from flats above shops
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Got that? SMALL NUMBER OF ESTATES.
 
Now here's a progressive city:

Haarlem is banning all meat advertising from public spaces in an effort to discourage consumption, as a campaign to highlight the health and economic benefits of meat kicks off.

The ban, agreed last year and effective from 2024, was made official last week, making Haarlem the first city in the world to add meat to a list of banned fossil ads for products that contribute to polluting nitrogen emissions. Amsterdam, Leiden and The Hague have already banned ads for flying, petrol powered cars and the fossil fuel industry, but stopped short at meat.

‘Meat is just as harmful to the environment,’ Haarlem GroenLinks councillor Ziggy Klazes, who tabled the motion, told Trouw. ‘We can’t tell people there’s a climate crisis and encourage them to buy products that are part of the cause.’
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www.dutchnews.nl

Haarlem becomes first city in the world to ban meat advertising - DutchNews.nl

Haarlem is banning all meat advertising from public spaces in an effort to discourage consumption, as a campaign to highlight the health and economic benefits of meat kicks off. The ban, agreed last year and effective from 2024, was made official last week, making Haarlem the first city in the...
www.dutchnews.nl www.dutchnews.nl
 
And an interesting development:

Now, it seems, more Britons may be turning to vegetarianism for a rather different reason: because they cannot afford meat as the growing cost-of-living crisis takes hold.

Summer figures show demand of various cuts is already in free-fall as people tighten belts with lamb and beef sales down by 23.7 per cent and 13.7 per cent respectively.
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An Oxford University study has previously found that a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet in the UK can be as much as a third cheaper than a meat diet. Even a flexitarian diet can reduce household food bills by 14 per cent, found the research which was published last winter.
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In July, year on year figures, compiled by analysts Kanta showed beef sales were down by 13.7 per cent, pork by 10.6 per cent , and chicken by 9.7 per cent. Lamb, meanwhile was down by a massive 23.7 per cent. Fish, too, had fallen, by 11.6 per cent.
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www.independent.co.uk

Britons going vegetarian to save money as cost-of-living crisis bites

Meat sales in free-fall as hard-up families look to reduce food bills amid spiralling prices
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
 
editor said:
"We collect food waste from properties that have a wheelie bin"

Properties on a high rise estate tend not to have wheelie bins as it might be a bit tricky for the waste truck to fit in the lift :facepalm:

And, look. If only you'd bother to read the actual fucking link:



Got that? SMALL NUMBER OF ESTATES.
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Yes I did get that and you might get the ability at some point in the future.

I was pointing out that you can compost meat and bones which is contrary to what others have said on this thread. So wind your neck in. :(
 
WouldBe said:
Yes I did get that and you might get the ability at some point in the future.
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But we certainly can't now and have had no official notification of when it might happen, if at any time in the near future.

So anyone insisting that it is possible right now is totally incorrect. Very few estates offer food collection in Lambeth, just like their web page says.
 
editor said:
But we certainly can't now and have had no official notification of when it might happen, if at any time in the near future.

So anyone insisting that it is possible right now is totally incorrect. Very few estates offer food collection in Lambeth, just like their web page says.
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You do realise that 'you' can be both personal and general don't you? So while it may not be possible for you personally it is possible in general.

As Pickman's model suggested have you actually contacted the council to ask them if / when it may be available?

Of course if it really bothers you that much is there anywhere nearby you could deposit it?

The best solution would be not to waste food in the first place. :(
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
Interesting, yes. But not really something to be celebrated, no matter what the result.
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I don't think anyone was suggesting that it's something to be 'celebrated.'
But if people discover that they can save money and still eat a tasty, nutritious diet by eating more veggie options then that's something vaguely positive to come out of this Tory shitstorm.
 
editor said:
I don't think anyone was suggesting that it's something to be 'celebrated.'
But if people discover that they can save money and still eat a tasty, nutritious diet by eating more veggie options then that's something vaguely positive to come out of this Tory shitstorm.
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Guess it shows just how grim things have got, if “positives from being poor” is the best we can do :(
 
Funky_monks said:
Where are you? Over east?

The problem is that in that postwar period, farmers were encouraged to produce as much food as humanly possible, mechanise, etc etc - the solution to that within the context of the "green revolution" was high yielding varieties that required lots of fert, and to rely on that synthetic fert. Fences and hedges went, fields were made bigger etc etc to accommodate it, the "barley barons" no longer had to have the hassle of farming stock if they didn't want and so on, and, given that the average age of a farmer is 60, lots still have the "feed the nation" mindset. Obviously since the mid/late 90s, environment schemes have come into play, but none of them really address the cropping area (within arable, at least), preferring instead to take land out of production (margins etc) for that.

The good news is that that mindset is going away, and farmers are starting to do things like undersowing so that they don't lose soil. Its much less common now to see bare fields than it was, and much less use of the plough (potatoes notwithstanding). Especially useful to undersow with something like clover if you have sheep to follow the crop. Things that became unlinked, are starting to be linked again.
Click to expand...
Yes, for sure. I see these changes in microcosm in my farm next to my wood (I live in Cambridge and have a pocket wood in east Norfolk). I feel really lucky to have the farmer and his cowman as my neighbours because land use in the fens is very much a mixed bag...fewer family farms, a lot of managed investment opportunities, land-banking...and the structural issues, reliance on cheap labour, modern slavery, shitty employment rights, supermarket monopolies, food policy., bandit capitalism..it sometimes feels we are all very fucked.
 
WouldBe said:
Yes I did get that and you might get the ability at some point in the future.

I was pointing out that you can compost meat and bones which is contrary to what others have said on this thread. So wind your neck in. :(
Click to expand...

You could always get a wormery?

www.wigglywigglers.co.uk

Worm Composting

The Urbalive Worm Composter is a home wormery kit that can be used indoors or outdoors for vermicomposting kitchen waste with worms. Shop our range of wormeries and worm composting kits.
www.wigglywigglers.co.uk www.wigglywigglers.co.uk
 
God, this thread is getting weird.

Celebrating people having less money to spend in food because the vege cause "wins"?

Seems "starvation enthusiast" applies in more ways than one
 
Funky_monks said:
God, this thread is getting weird.

Celebrating people having less money to spend in food because the vege cause "wins"?

Seems "starvation enthusiast" applies in more ways than one
Click to expand...

Getting? At least the meat-flexers, telling us about the steak they ate last night, have decided to leave the thread alone for a while.
 
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