Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[Yuwipi Woman]

Not really - the whole reason we are in this mess is because, since the industrial revolution, we have been taking carbon sequestered millenia ago and adding it to the atmosphere by burning it. Ruminants existed in vast, vast numbers pre industrialisation, indeed, it is supposed that the mass extermination of Bison from the grasslands of the USA caused a small ice age.

You do realize that this isn't exactly support for your argument? One could argue that culling the US cattle herd, or a percentage of it could curb global warming. I'm not suggesting that, but slowly lowering it by half wouldn't be a bad idea for a number of reasons.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

It wont be quick or easy. But it will be quicker and easier than trying to convince the entire world not to eat meat and dairy.

Meat consumption used to be much lower in the developed world. It was a function of affordability. All you need to reduce meat consumption is to raise the price.

 

[Funky_monks]

Do you have support for that argument? The US alone has 94 million cattle in production at the moment. In 1830, the number of bison in the US was less than half that number (40 mil).

There's one for the US. I'll try and look the others out later.

 

[Funky_monks]

You do realize that this isn't exactly support for your argument? One could argue that culling the US cattle herd, or a percentage of it could curb global warming. I'm not suggesting that, but slowly lowering it by half wouldn't be a bad idea for a number of reasons.

Thats almost exactly what I've been saying - that Agriculture is being used to buy time for the fossil fuel industries, because of the short life of methane, and other things, like tree planting.

The upshot basically, if done quickly is huge rises in food prices which affect the poorest.

 

[Funky_monks]

Meat consumption used to be much lower in the developed world. It was a function of affordability. All you need to reduce meat consumption is to raise the price.

I imagine by changing farming methods as I've outlined, the price will go up anyway, especially if we start raising other things like poultry on rotational systems.

The key is to do that in a way that doesn't push people into poverty, and massive sweeping reductions will.

 

[belboid]

Meat consumption used to be much lower in the developed world. It was a function of affordability. All you need to reduce meat consumption is to raise the price.

yes and no - particularly no to the last part. Consumption has gone up in the less developed world precisely because it has got more developed. Prices have gone up, but incomes have gone up more. Just making meat a bit more expensive will make little difference there. Not to mention the fact that western dietary choices will have virtually zero impact upon the choices in Asia.

 

[bcuster]

I'd like to draw a distinction being killing "vermin"; which by definition are inherently harmful to humans versus killing animals such as cattle, chickens, sheep, pigs, deer, fish, etc whom, I am convinced, are safe & friendly and who want to live in peace & harmony with humanity.

Species like bison, wild game and the like are not necessarily friendly towards humans; overall they are quite content to be left alone.

Verbal trickery on the part of the forum carnivores will not convince me that slaughtering animals for food or sport is not immeasurably cruel

 

[belboid]

animals have zero comprehension of what 'peace & harmony with humanity' means, This kind of disneyesque anthropomorphism is no argument at all.

 

[Funky_monks]

I'd like to draw a distinction being killing "vermin"; which by definition are inherently harmful to humans versus killing animals such as cattle, chickens, sheep, pigs, deer, fish, etc whom, I am convinced, are safe & friendly and who want to live in peace & harmony with humanity.

Species like bison, wild game and the like are not necessarily friendly towards humans; overall they are quite content to be left alone.

Verbal trickery on the part of the forum carnivores will not convince me that slaughtering animals for food or sport is not immeasurably cruel

Eh?
Rats are incredibly intelligent as are corvids. Mice, rabbits and deer maybe less so.
Also, given most vegans don't want to exploit bees - is there not a moral dichotomy between those and any other invertebrates that we may deem harmful to crops?

I think you could quite easily use your post as a textbook illustration of anthropomorphism.

Also, wasn't it you that used the Pope as some kind of example of morality?

Eating meat, bad. Child sex abuse fine, apparently.

 

[Funky_monks]

animals have zero comprehension of what 'peace & harmony with humanity' means, This kind of disneyesque anthropomorphism is no argument at all.

Nature is red in tooth and claw, "humanity" is, well, a human construct.

This is all getting very "Disney" - herbivore, good, carnivore, bad.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I'd like to draw a distinction being killing "vermin"; which by definition are inherently harmful to humans versus killing animals such as cattle, chickens, sheep, pigs, deer, fish, etc whom, I am convinced, are safe & friendly and who want to live in peace & harmony with humanity.

You've never raised pigs if you think they're friendly to humans.

 

[bcuster]

Eh?
Rats are incredibly intelligent as are corvids. Mice, rabbits and deer maybe less so.
Also, given most vegans don't want to exploit bees - is there not a moral dichotomy between those and any other invertebrates that we may deem harmful to crops?

I think you could quite easily use your post as a textbook illustration of anthropomorphism.

Also, wasn't it you that used the Pope as some kind of example of morality?

Eating meat, bad. Child sex abuse fine, apparently.

I'll ignore the off topic comments regarding the Pope.
Vermin can and should be controlled insofar as they are threat to humans; regardless of their intelligence.

You've never raised pigs if you think they're friendly to humans.

perhaps they are best left alone, then...

 

[Funky_monks]

I'll ignore the off topic comments regarding the Pope.
Vermin can and should be controlled insofar as they are threat to humans; regardless of their intelligence.


perhaps they are best left alone, then...

It wasn't me that posted the article, it was you - why did you do so if you considered it off topic?

I think it's quite illuminating about your moral position.

 

[Funky_monks]

You've never raised pigs if you think they're friendly to humans.

Pigs are periodically friendly to humans....

 

[belboid]

Pigs are periodically friendly to humans....

I think you mean humans are occasionally friendly to pigs

 

[Funky_monks]

I think you mean humans are occasionally friendly to pigs

I've never seen the double meaning of "predatory" illustrated so well....

 

[bcuster]

It wasn't me that posted the article, it was you - why did you do so if you considered it off topic?

I think it's quite illuminating about your moral position.

The pope's comments were directly on thread topic
Your comments were not...

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Pigs are periodically friendly to humans....

If you cut their balls off, they tend to not remember you fondly.

 

[Funky_monks]

If you cut their balls off, they tend to not remember you fondly.

Can't say I ever bothered castrating boars, I just tried to send them in before they got too shirty.

Other than that, I worked on a boar stud and those guys needed their balls....

 

[JimW]

Apparently they had buckets full of balls on the pig farm my brother did his Saturday job on and your workmates would amuse themselves hiding them in your sandwiches.
Think one of the older blokes had nearly lost a leg to a bite from a sow too, but might be mixing farms up as this was many years ago.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'd like to draw a distinction being killing "vermin"; which by definition are inherently harmful to humans versus killing animals such as cattle, chickens, sheep, pigs, deer, fish, etc whom, I am convinced, are safe & friendly and who want to live in peace & harmony with humanity.

What the absolute fuck is this childlike bollocks

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Apparently they had buckets full of balls on the pig farm my brother did his Saturday job on and your workmates would amuse themselves hiding them in your sandwiches.

Around here they coat them in batter and deep fry them. They sometimes appear on restaurant menus as "rocky mountain oysters."

 

[Spymaster]

Around here they coat them in batter and deep fry them. They sometimes appear on restaurant menus as "rocky mountain oysters."

Any good? I've never eaten pigs bollocks. Lamb's are excellent though.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Any good? I've never eaten pigs bollocks. Lamb's are excellent though.

Take your cholesterol meds before eating.

 

[Pickman's model]

Eh?
Rats are incredibly intelligent as are corvids. Mice, rabbits and deer maybe less so.
Also, given most vegans don't want to exploit bees - is there not a moral dichotomy between those and any other invertebrates that we may deem harmful to crops?

I think you could quite easily use your post as a textbook illustration of anthropomorphism.

Also, wasn't it you that used the Pope as some kind of example of morality?

Eating meat, bad. Child sex abuse fine, apparently.

It is really stupid to link a backbone to intelligence. News out this week suggests bees are sentient and can recognise human faces and we ought all to be aware of the intelligence of eg octopi

 

[Pickman's model]

You've never raised pigs if you think they're friendly to humans.

Very good at disposing of corpses tho

 

[Funky_monks]

It is really stupid to link a backbone to intelligence. News out this week suggests bees are sentient and can recognise human faces and we ought all to be aware of the intelligence of eg octopi

Why?
I'm not denying other animals are intelligent, which is why we have suitable slaughter regs and systems in place - eg the work of Temple Grandin, which is now commonplace in abattoirs in the UK.
No such thing for vermin.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why?
I'm not denying other animals are intelligent, which is why we have suitable slaughter regs and systems in place - eg the work of Temple Grandin, which is now commonplace in abattoirs in the UK.
No such thing for vermin.

I think presenting intelligent animals, highly intelligent animals like octopi in particular, with industrial slaughter is asking for trouble in the long term.

 

[Funky_monks]

I think presenting intelligent animals, highly intelligent animals like octopi in particular, with industrial slaughter is asking for trouble in the long term.

Disagree (in terms of animals farmed) - being up to date with the latest animal behaviour research helps us make the best welfare decisions, from handling facilities on farm to transport and abattoir practice.

I know there's been a lot of "but the meat industry" on this thread, but like lots of people involved in agriculture, I want systems to be high welfare - it informed a lot of choices within my system, from farming sheep who shed their own fleece (less flystrike, no shearing stress), to not castrating or docking tails.