November 9th 1938 Kristallnacht

[Johnny Canuck3]

Actually, there were two threads about Arafat and AIDS. Rachamim started one, and I started the other.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=93384&highlight=arafat+homosexual

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=258408&highlight=arafat+homosexual

Looks like mine predated his by four years, though.

 

[free spirit]

I'll add my name here to the list of dissenters about Rachamim being banned seeing as we're not allowed a thread to discuss it.

 

[butchersapron]

Over here, radio programming tends to come in certain formats. One is known as MOR, or 'middle of the road'.

Here's a definition:



http://www.answers.com/topic/middle-of-the-road

I was thinking about a couple of West Coast publications, and how they've changed: a local one, the Georgia Strait, and Rolling Stone.

With the Strait, it was founded by a guy called Dan McLeod.

Here he is then.

An article about them then:

Dan now:

And a fairly recent article about their one million dollar tax bill:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/10/09/georgiastraight031009.html

I suppose it's in the nature of things that start off as radical, or revolutionary, or ground breaking, to move toward the MOR format, as time passes. It takes less struggle, it's more comfortable to do so.

So if a place that started as a bunch of 'baby eating anarchists' swimming in current and controversial issues, finds itself becoming a place where one goes to discuss the best way to tat a doily, or to discuss the best siding for one's garden shed, one could say that it is simply following the ways of the world.

I personally have nothing against there being a place where people can discuss doilies, or whether or not the presence of a red wart on one's penis makes one odd; but at the same time, it's nice to see those discussions leavened with some that maybe aren't quite so MOR, if you see what I mean. It would be nice if every once in awhile, the spirit of the 'baby eating anarchists' was allowed to resurface, just a for a bit.

And you're what, Merzbow? Lightning Bolt?

 

[Zachor]

Come on Phil, I know you like to stir up controvery for fun but really, rach was an unpleasant fascist/zionist propagandist who ignored all evidence contrary to his position. That does not make for any sort of intellectual stimulation. It's like arguing with bigfish or some other obsessive loony. Totally fucking pointless.

I agree that arguing with Rach could be 'challenging' and similar to arguing with pbman et al but its a bit hypocritical to criticise Rach for promoting an extreme version of Zionism (one that I do NOT share I might add) whilst ignoring some of the support on here for bestial terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah etc or those who on here defend the Iranian Govt.

It does look very much like there is a double standard operating as to what sort of fash are tolerated.

 

[HackneyE9]

He deserved to get banned, not for his views but because he didn't know how to use the quote button.

What he said. In fact, his refusal (I'm sure he could have worked out how to use it) made me and others suspect his responses weren't his own, but cut and paste group responses put together by others - which would definitely make him bannable in my book.

 

[nino_savatte]

I agree that arguing with Rach could be 'challenging' and similar to arguing with pbman et al but its a bit hypocritical to criticise Rach for promoting an extreme version of Zionism (one that I do NOT share I might add) whilst ignoring some of the support on here for bestial terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah etc or those who on here defend the Iranian Govt.

It does look very much like there is a double standard operating as to what sort of fash are tolerated.

Would you care to point out where this "support" comes from? Because I don't see it. Did you support, wholeheartedly, Israel's indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon?

 

[nino_savatte]

Actually, there were two threads about Arafat and AIDS. Rachamim started one, and I started the other.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=93384&highlight=arafat+homosexual

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=258408&highlight=arafat+homosexual

Looks like mine predated his by four years, though.

It looks like you two were cut from the same cloth. Didn't you introduce him to U75? I believe you did; I recall you getting a bit snippy on that Arafat/AIDS thread and told us that you "knew a Zionist" who would invite to Urban to provide, as you put it, "balance".

 

[T & P]

Even if his support of fascism didn't merit a permaban, his constant trolling, shit-stirring and ceaceless hate incitement towards Arabs and Palestinians certainly did. For that is what his posting record amounted to.

As for his alleged debating skills and knowledge of ME issues, I can honestly say I have never seen him back up any of his claims with any evidence from a trustable source. While at the same time rubbishing evidence published by others and claiming even the likes of the United Nations, BBC or the Guardian newspapers were not trustworthy.

Yeah. Great debating skills, those...

 

[Spymaster]

It looks like you two were cut from the same cloth. Didn't you introduce him to U75? I believe you did; I recall you getting a bit snippy on that Arafat/AIDS thread and told us that you "knew a Zionist" who would invite to Urban to provide, as you put it, "balance".

I know a couple. They're not quite as much fun as Rachamim but they'd still get you huffin' and puffin', and that was one small pleasure I got from Rach's postings!

I'll give them a bell.

 

[Spymaster]

Absolutely true. There have been few other posters on this or any other forum who have actually changed my opinion about anything. Rachamin did. He didn't win me over to his position by any means, but he made me question some of my fundamental assumptions about the state of Israel.

Same here. The main one for me was the historical claim to the land. Accepting the Zionist perspective puts a completely different light on things.

It was almost always him alone against ten or fifteen abusive antagonists, and I never saw him lose his cool. I've a lot of respect of him in spite of his politics. I hope he comes back

Agreed, but he won't be back. The lynch mob ^^^^ will see to that.

 

[Zachor]

Would you care to point out where this "support" comes from? Because I don't see it. Did you support, wholeheartedly, Israel's indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon?

No I didn't support Israeli actions in Southern Lebanon although I can see reasons for it. I also don't support the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah siting missile batteries in civilian areas either. This puts the Israelis in the invidious position of needing to take out terrorist bases but knowing that the terrorists will use the inevitable civilian casualties for propaganda purposes.

There are many 'anti zionist' comments on here that bang on about the 'illegality' of the existence of the State of Israel and bang on about the flawed idea of a single state solution and quite frankly demonise Israel without once thinking that equal or greater criticism should be aimed at terrorist groups that kill civilians within Israel and outside of it.

There is also very little support on here for measured criticism of Arab states which have treated the Palestinians appalingly, keeping them in shitty refugee camps in order that they can be used as a shroud to wave and criticise Israel with.

As to where this support for Hamas and other terrorists comes from, sadly its is from the extreme left not just on here but elsewhere as well.

There will be no solution to the middle east problems without acknowledgment that there have been tragedies on both sides of the conflict.

The idiotic and partisan support given to Israel and democracies enemies makes the situation worse not better.

I'd rather be on the side of future peace unlike some of the anti Israel extremists who support a one state solution that would inevitably lead to a genocide of the Jewish population in the region. After the unique and terrible events that grew out of the main subject of this thread can you blame the Israelis for wanting to defend themselves against future Hitlers whereever they may come from.

 

[nino_savatte]

No I didn't support Israeli actions in Southern Lebanon although I can see reasons for it. I also don't support the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah siting missile batteries in civilian areas either. This puts the Israelis in the invidious position of needing to take out terrorist bases but knowing that the terrorists will use the inevitable civilian casualties for propaganda purposes.

There are many 'anti zionist' comments on here that bang on about the 'illegality' of the existence of the State of Israel and bang on about the flawed idea of a single state solution and quite frankly demonise Israel without once thinking that equal or greater criticism should be aimed at terrorist groups that kill civilians within Israel and outside of it.

There is also very little support on here for measured criticism of Arab states which have treated the Palestinians appalingly, keeping them in shitty refugee camps in order that they can be used as a shroud to wave and criticise Israel with.

As to where this support for Hamas and other terrorists comes from, sadly its is from the extreme left not just on here but elsewhere as well.

There will be no solution to the middle east problems without acknowledgment that there have been tragedies on both sides of the conflict.

The idiotic and partisan support given to Israel and democracies enemies makes the situation worse not better.

I'd rather be on the side of future peace unlike some of the anti Israel extremists who support a one state solution that would inevitably lead to a genocide of the Jewish population in the region. After the unique and terrible events that grew out of the main subject of this thread can you blame the Israelis for wanting to defend themselves against future Hitlers whereever they may come from.

The bombing wasn't restricted to South Lebanon though, was it? You continue to forget that it is the Palestinian people who are being oppressed, not the Israelis.

But the overall tone of this posts suggests that any criticism of Israel is either "anti-Israeli" or simply "wrong".

You give with one hand and take away with the other. I see you've also managed to squeeze in a quick reference to Hitler. Well done.

 

[Zachor]

The bombing wasn't restricted to South Lebanon though, was it? You continue to forget that it is the Palestinian people who are being oppressed, not the Israelis.

Yes there is oppression going on against the Palestinians but its not ALL being done by the Israelis. There is enough oil money sloshing round the region for the familiy of every Arab who left Israel in 1948 (many on instructino of the Arab League I might add) a five bedroom house with a fucking swimming pool. Now why haven't the Arab states done that? Would it be becuase they needed Palestininans to live in shit so that they could point to them and go 'Israel did this' 'Israel did that' whilst ignoring their own nations contribution to the problems.

But the overall tone of this posts suggests that any criticism of Israel is either "anti-Israeli" or simply "wrong".

No I don't say that there are no reasons to criticise Israel but the criticism should be based on reality not emotions or propaganda supplied by Islamofascists and their fellow travellers. There is much to criticise but its the manner and the disproportionate criticism which Israel gets when compared to far far worse regimes like Burma. Where are the high profile Burma Solidarity Campaigns - they are no where to be seen as the rabid anti zionism of the left sees to it that only Israel comes in for the sort of criticism that should be levelled at other nations as well.

You give with one hand and take away with the other. I see you've also managed to squeeze in a quick reference to Hitler. Well done.

To many the rise of Islamofascism and the language that they use is very similar to that used in publications like Der Sturmer so I feel that it is quite legitimate to use the comparison without contravening Godwins Law.

 

[T & P]

No I don't say that there are no reasons to criticise Israel but the criticism should be based on reality not emotions or propaganda supplied by Islamofascists and their fellow travellers. There is much to criticise but its the manner and the disproportionate criticism which Israel gets when compared to far far worse regimes like Burma. Where are the high profile Burma Solidarity Campaigns - they are no where to be seen as the rabid anti zionism of the left sees to it that only Israel comes in for the sort of criticism that should be levelled at other nations as well.

That is mainly because while nations like Burma get treated like the international pariah that they are, not a word of serious criticism (let alone actions) are ever levelled against Israel from the International community, other than the Arab nations which are seen as biased and thus safely ignored.

Indeed, Israel is described as a 'vibrant democracy' and an island of tolerance and civilisation in a sea of barbarism. The fact is, any other nation perpetrating the atrocities and abuses Israel has with impunity for decades- not to mention its clandestine arsenal of WMDs- would have been reviled and isolated by the rest of the world- if it hadn't been bombed to fuck years ago by Uncle Sam.

I'm sorry but the Israeli government is at least every bit as bad as Hamas. Yet the former is treated with the upmost respect, and the latter described as 'terrorists'. I mean, wft?

So yes, Israel does get masses amounts of criticism from individuals and some groups alike- but this is due to counter the nauseating protectionism and condoning it enjoys at official level, and to try to have the situation changed.

 

[Zachor]

That is mainly because while nations like Burma get treated like the international pariah that they are, not a word of serious criticism (let alone actions) are ever levelled against Israel from the International community, other than the Arab nations which are seen as biased and thus safely ignored.

That is not my experience and as I work on the fringes of the world of international relations that is certainly not my experience of that either. Govts do voice concerns and do take action over issues in the OT's for example. I also have to deal with real pariah states like Iran and there is no comparison between nations like this and democratic states such as Israel.

Indeed, Israel is described as a 'vibrant democracy' and an island of tolerance and civilisation in a sea of barbarism. The fact is, any other nation perpetrating the atrocities and abuses Israel has with impunity for decades- not to mention its clandestine arsenal of WMDs- would have been reviled and isolated by the rest of the world- if it hadn't been bombed to fuck years ago by Uncle Sam.

Whatever faults that Israel has it is certainly much more democratic than the surrounding states and in fact more democratic than the UK. The nuclear issue is concerning but IMO the Israeli nukes are there for defensive purposes only. I don't believe that Israel would ever use these weapons unless the state was under dire threat of imminent destruction. A reverse of the Iraq and Iranian situations where these nations either used WMD or have threatened to use it against neighbouring states.

I'm sorry but the Israeli government is at least every bit as bad as Hamas. Yet the former is treated with the upmost respect, and the latter described as 'terrorists'. I mean, wft?

If Israel behaved in the same way as the terrorists then there would be no Palestinians alive because that is the attitude that the Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists want to do to the Jewish population of Israel.

So yes, Israel does get masses amounts of criticism from individuals and some groups alike- but this is due to counter the nauseating protectionism and condoning it enjoys at official level, and to try to have the situation changed.

As I have stated before in an earlier paragraph. Just because UK Ministers are not chaining themselves to the Israeli embassy doesn't mean that legit criticisms are not being made.

I choose to be on the side of Israel because that to me is the right side to be on. That doesn't mean I hate the average Palestinian just the terrorists who are using the Palestinians as an excuse to bomb, shoot and terrorise people on the grounds that they are Israeli.

 

[Grandma Death]

Even if his support of fascism didn't merit a permaban, his constant trolling, shit-stirring and ceaceless hate incitement towards Arabs and Palestinians certainly did. For that is what his posting record amounted to.

As for his alleged debating skills and knowledge of ME issues, I can honestly say I have never seen him back up any of his claims with any evidence from a trustable source. While at the same time rubbishing evidence published by others and claiming even the likes of the United Nations, BBC or the Guardian newspapers were not trustworthy.

Yeah. Great debating skills, those...

Quite.

I'm not going to miss him. He was the most frustrating poster I have ever engaged with.

I do love the way people are making out that its a clique thats forced him off the board-nobody but Rach is responsible for his downfall.

 

[T & P]

That is not my experience and as I work on the fringes of the world of international relations that is certainly not my experience of that either. Govts do voice concerns and do take action over issues in the OT's for example. I also have to deal with real pariah states like Iran and there is no comparison between nations like this and democratic states such as Israel.

Oh come on now. Surely you must see the extremely easy ride Israel gets? The most fierce criticism it ever gets is the ocassional use of the word "regrettable" regarding some of its actions. Not even a suggestion of sanctions, let alone them becoming a reality. Try to find another nation outside Russia or China (which for obvious reasons are beyond sanctions) that gets away with occupying other people's land for nearly half a century and subjecting its inhabitants to a catalogue of abuses, blockades and isolation that have made their existence a living hell.

The war on Lebanon two years ago was a prime example. What Israel did there was paramount to war crimes- if not crimes against humanity. Yet all we got was pleads for calm and requests to cease hostilities. Indeed, the official line pushed by most nations was that Israel was simply "defending itself" when it chose to blatantly bomb civilians and flatten an entire neighbourhood in Beirut- an action that is illegal as hell under every international convention known to man.

And look at the extraordinary number of UN resolutionsconcerning Israel vetoed by the USA.

There is no other country on earth that enjoys such protectionism and complacency from the international community.

Whatever faults that Israel has it is certainly much more democratic than the surrounding states and in fact more democratic than the UK.

That however should be of no consideration whatsoever when it comes to deciding whether someone's actions are right or wrong. The mother of a child shot in the head will draw little consolation from the fact that his son was killed by a democratic power rather than a dictatorship.

If Israel behaved in the same way as the terrorists then there would be no Palestinians alive because that is the attitude that the Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists want to do to the Jewish population of Israel.

What they really want (and Hamas has been on record about this) is to have their own land, and to drive those illegally occupying it out.

But what would they do if they had Israel's military capabilities is certainly a moot point. What count is their actions. And the fact remains that Israel is guilty of countless instances of abuses, illegal imprisoment, collective punishment, land appropriation, opression and killings against an entire people. That is State terrorism, and it makes them as bad as the other side.

I choose to be on the side of Israel because that to me is the right side to be on. That doesn't mean I hate the average Palestinian just the terrorists who are using the Palestinians as an excuse to bomb, shoot and terrorise people on the grounds that they are Israeli.

Why would it be the right side to be on? Regardless of whether you believe one side is defending itself and the other commiting terrorist acts, you have to remember that this is not a war between equal patners. This is a case of a country illegally occupying other people's land and oppressing them. If you removed all the violence from both sides, you would still have a set of people occupying the other people's land and restricting their movements, freedom and daily life.

That is the key to the whole problem; that is what makes Israel by far the more guilty party in this conflict. And that is what needs to be addressed for the violence to go away for good.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Whatever faults that Israel has it is certainly much more democratic than the surrounding states and in fact more democratic than the UK.

Millions of people have lived under Israeli rule for over 40 years now, and still have no vote in the Knesset. Israel is about as democratic as Apartheid South Africa.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes there is oppression going on against the Palestinians but its not ALL being done by the Israelis. There is enough oil money sloshing round the region for the familiy of every Arab who left Israel in 1948 (many on instructino of the Arab League I might add) a five bedroom house with a fucking swimming pool. Now why haven't the Arab states done that? Would it be becuase they needed Palestininans to live in shit so that they could point to them and go 'Israel did this' 'Israel did that' whilst ignoring their own nations contribution to the problems.


No I don't say that there are no reasons to criticise Israel but the criticism should be based on reality not emotions or propaganda supplied by Islamofascists and their fellow travellers. There is much to criticise but its the manner and the disproportionate criticism which Israel gets when compared to far far worse regimes like Burma. Where are the high profile Burma Solidarity Campaigns - they are no where to be seen as the rabid anti zionism of the left sees to it that only Israel comes in for the sort of criticism that should be levelled at other nations as well.


To many the rise of Islamofascism and the language that they use is very similar to that used in publications like Der Sturmer so I feel that it is quite legitimate to use the comparison without contravening Godwins Law.

Oh? So who else is oppressing the Palestinian people? Who else is bulldozing their homes and forcing them off their land? Who forced them off their land in the first place?

I see you've resorted to using the phrases "Islamofascist" and "fellow traveller", the former is much beloved by Peter Hitchens and is wholly inaccurate and the latter has its origins in US anti-communist dicourse. In fact, it's another means of demonising a people who have already been subjected to abuse by not one, but two, countries: The US and Israel.

You also suggest that anyone who doesn't support the excesses of the state of Israel is "rabid".

I feel that it is quite legitimate to use the comparison without contravening Godwins Law

Well, actually, it isn't; you chose to invoke Hitler's name for the purpose of bolstering your thesis with emotion.

For all your talk, you have never once criticised Israel in any meaningful way. You are more likely to lay the blame at the collective door of the Palestinian people.

 

[Zachor]

Oh? So who else is oppressing the Palestinian people? Who else is bulldozing their homes and forcing them off their land? Who forced them off their land in the first place?

Many Arabs left Israel under instruction from the Arab league. However, I dont' deny that the situation for Pals living in Judea and Sameria isn't ideal but the Arab nations who advised the Pals to leave and who took them in could have done much much more to alieviate the distress of the Palestinians. If as much money as has been spent by the Arab nations demonising Israel was spent on educating and supporting the Palestiinians their position wouldn't be half as bad as it is now. I disagree with the bulldozing of the homes of families of suicide bombers etc as I feel that this isn't an effective way of dealing with terrorists.

I see you've resorted to using the phrase "Islamofascist" which is much beloved by Peter Hitchens and is wholly inaccurate.

Is it inaccurate? Or is it that you are more comfortable with criticism of the white fascists rather than the brown ones? Both Nazism and Islamism are totalitarian ideologies that deny freewill democracy and progress. I feel quite comfortable using the phrase islamofascist I also feel comfortable with the term Christofascist to describe the antics of groups like Christian Voice.

You also suggest that anyone who doesn't support the excesses of the state of Israel is "rabid".

I would never support the Israeli state 'excesses' but I'm quite prepared to stand up and say that Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorists.

Well, actually, it isn't; you chose to invoke Hitler's name for the purpose of bolstering your thesis with emotion.

Not really. Tyrants (especially Jew hating tyrants) seem to emerge in every generation or so. Hitler was by far the worst and I support the right of people to defend themselves against other forms of fascism as well.

 

[Zachor]

For all your talk, you have never once criticised Israel in any meaningful way. You are more likely to lay the blame at the collective door of the Palestinian people.

When you say meaningful what you really mean is 'nino approved' screaming at the Israelis.

there are far more subtle and effective ways of criticism, ones that don't mean having to make alliances with tyrannical philosophies like Islamism like the SWP did.

 

[nino_savatte]

Many Arabs left Israel under instruction from the Arab league. However, I dont' deny that the situation for Pals living in Judea and Sameria isn't ideal but the Arab nations who advised the Pals to leave and who took them in could have done much much more to alieviate the distress of the Palestinians. If as much money as has been spent by the Arab nations demonising Israel was spent on educating and supporting the Palestiinians their position wouldn't be half as bad as it is now. I disagree with the bulldozing of the homes of families of suicide bombers etc as I feel that this isn't an effective way of dealing with terrorists.

And many did not. Your story about the Arab League is just that: a story. I like the way you tend to emply euphemisms too. You have also taken to using tropes to support your position. This is an example of a trope: "If as much money as has been spent by the Arab nations demonising Israel was spent on educating and supporting the Palestiinians their position wouldn't be half as bad as it is now". This sentiment deliberatel overlooks the systematic brualisation of a people together with the collective punishments that hev meted out to them over the years. Btw, Israel blocks money and aid destined for the Palestinians...with the help of the USA.

Is it inaccurate? Or is it that you are more comfortable with criticism of the white fascists rather than the brown ones? Both Nazism and Islamism are totalitarian ideologies that deny freewill democracy and progress. I feel quite comfortable using the phrase islamofascist I also feel comfortable with the term Christofascist to describe the antics of groups like Christian Voice.

Sorry but "Islamofascist" is simply another means of collectively tarring an entire group of people and you tend to use it indiscriminately. Btw, "Christofascist" is never used. If it is, then please cite an example.

I would never support the Israeli state 'excesses' but I'm quite prepared to stand up and say that Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorists.

Aye, give with one hand and take away with the other.You may just as well say that "Israel can do what it likes because the region is infested with terrorist scum".

Not really. Tyrants (especially Jew hating tyrants) seem to emerge in every generation or so. Hitler was by far the worst and I support the right of people to defend themselves against other forms of fascism as well.

Gobbledegook.

 

[nino_savatte]

When you say meaningful what you really mean is 'nino approved' screaming at the Israelis.

there are far more subtle and effective ways of criticism, ones that don't mean having to make alliances with tyrannical philosophies like Islamism like the SWP did.

Oh look, you've added the SWP to your posts. How predictable. First "Hitler", then "Islamofascist" and now you're having a pop at the SWP. I've also noticed that you've decided to personalise this by using ther phrase "nino apporved". Exactly what am I supposed have "approved" or [perhaps you'd like to tell me that I'm either a) misguided or b) a "fellow traveller" or c) a "raving anti-Semite"? The choice is yours.

You're like a broken record.

 

[Zachor]

You're like a broken record.

So are you. You refuse to see that the Israelis may just have a point in fearing for their survival nor do you support those cross communal groups in Israel that are working for peace.

You and others like you support the groups who are part of the problem not part of the solution.

You also cannot see that there are ways of criticising actions of both the Israel govt and the extremists in places like Hebron that don't involve screaming 'Israel is evil' at the top of the voice.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Same here. The main one for me was the historical claim to the land. Accepting the Zionist perspective puts a completely different light on things.

Agreed, but he won't be back. The lynch mob ^^^^ will see to that.

Pathetic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There are many 'anti zionist' comments on here that bang on about the 'illegality' of the existence of the State of Israel and bang on about the flawed idea of a single state solution and quite frankly demonise Israel without once thinking that equal or greater criticism should be aimed at terrorist groups that kill civilians within Israel and outside of it.

What's sauce for the goose is generally sauce for the gander. Perhaps if the state of Israel had borne that in mind a little more, then (to continue the avian metaphor) they wouldn't have so many chickens coming home to roost.

There is also very little support on here for measured criticism of Arab states which have treated the Palestinians appalingly, keeping them in shitty refugee camps in order that they can be used as a shroud to wave and criticise Israel with.

Odd then, that every time the issue comes up, there's criticism of Jordan, criticism of Egypt, criticism of Iraq and Syria, both for treating the Palestinians badly, and for using them as political footballs.
There are none so blind as those that cannot see.

As to where this support for Hamas and other terrorists comes from, sadly its is from the extreme left not just on here but elsewhere as well.

Oh dear.
That, my friend, is ahistoric tosh.
As much support for terrorism comes from the right as from the left. In fact the right make particularly fond ue of a tactic known as "the strategy of tension". Learn a little about it, see how it might apply to the modern day Middle East.

There will be no solution to the middle east problems without acknowledgment that there have been tragedies on both sides of the conflict.

The idiotic and partisan support given to Israel and democracies enemies makes the situation worse not better.

I'd rather be on the side of future peace unlike some of the anti Israel extremists who support a one state solution that would inevitably lead to a genocide of the Jewish population in the region. After the unique and terrible events that grew out of the main subject of this thread can you blame the Israelis for wanting to defend themselves against future Hitlers whereever they may come from.

Except, of course, that only a vanishingly small proportion of those that want peace seek a "one state" solution in the way you mean.

 

[nino_savatte]

So are you. You refuse to see that the Israelis may just have a point in fearing for their survival nor do you support those cross communal groups in Israel that are working for peace.

You and others like you support the groups who are part of the problem not part of the solution.

You also cannot see that there are ways of criticising actions of both the Israel govt and the extremists in places like Hebron that don't involve screaming 'Israel is evil' at the top of the voice.

I described you as "broken record" because of your tendency to chuck the same auld names and phrases into your posts. Predictably enough, you followed one with another. Here they are:

Hitler
Islamofascist
The SWP

Another way in which you've tried to use demonisations are exemplified by your replies to me and others: here, you say "You refuse to see that the Israelis may just have a point in fearing for their survival nor do you support those cross communal groups in Israel that are working for peace". This is an oft-repeated canard and you continue to suggest that I tar every Israeli with the same brush. Please don't project your values on to me.

Your last paragraph is pretty typical: it's another demonisation. Criticism of Israel's continued employment of excessive force is perfectly legitimate and claiming that this is some sort of heavily veiled form of "anti-Semitism" is just another way of shutting down discourse that doesn't conform to the Nationalist-Zionist position.

Btw, Nationalist [Revisionist]-Zionists were roundly condemned by some US Jews, most notably Alebrt Einstein, as this letter shows. The gangster nature of the so-called liberation groups is highlighted here

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

http://www.jfjfp.org/BackgroundN/einstein_et_al.htm

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes there is oppression going on against the Palestinians but its not ALL being done by the Israelis. There is enough oil money sloshing round the region for the familiy of every Arab who left Israel in 1948 (many on instructino of the Arab League I might add) a five bedroom house with a fucking swimming pool. Now why haven't the Arab states done that? Would it be becuase they needed Palestininans to live in shit so that they could point to them and go 'Israel did this' 'Israel did that' whilst ignoring their own nations contribution to the problems.

You really are sucking up the centre-right narrative on these issues, aren't you?
You make an assumption (one that would be insulting if made about any other ethnic community) that "Arabs" should be their brothers' keepers, that the peoples of one nation-state should assimilate the peoples of another because a third party has used illegal methods to expel the second party from their home.
Even setting aside the legal implications of doing so, what message would that send to other regimes that might fancy doing the same, hmmm?

No I don't say that there are no reasons to criticise Israel but the criticism should be based on reality not emotions or propaganda supplied by Islamofascists and their fellow travellers. There is much to criticise but its the manner and the disproportionate criticism which Israel gets when compared to far far worse regimes like Burma. Where are the high profile Burma Solidarity Campaigns - they are no where to be seen as the rabid anti zionism of the left sees to it that only Israel comes in for the sort of criticism that should be levelled at other nations as well.

Someone who talks of "Islamofascists" and "the rabid anti-Zionism of the left" (so vague, so very generalising) really has no room to demand that criticism should be "based on reality not emotions", wouldn't you say?

To many the rise of Islamofascism and the language that they use is very similar to that used in publications like Der Sturmer so I feel that it is quite legitimate to use the comparison without contravening Godwins Law.

To many, the kind of language used about both Gentiles and Jews by Jabotinsky and his acolytes (many of whom became members of the state of Israel's power elite) is reminiscent of Streicher's rants.

 

[invisibleplanet]

may we never forget.

We can never forget

BERLIN - Trash from Kristallnacht has been found in a large garbage dump an hour's drive north of Berlin, Israeli journalist and treasure-hunter Yaron Svoray has announced.

Svoray announced the discovery Sunday, and is planning to release more details on Monday.

Svoray plans to announce the precise location of the garbage dump, where trash from the Night of Broken Glass was tossed after the deadly anti-Jewish riots of November 9, 1938, at a press conference today to help the German authorities search the site.

The dump, which is about the size of four soccer fields, was in use between the beginning of the 20th century and World War II.

"There is no issue here of treasure or money," said Svoray, who discovered the finds while searching for a different historical artifact. "There is a chance here for a historic discovery that should be dealt with on a state level or the level of the Brandenburg district, where the area is located."

The finds include a glass bottle with a Star of David imprinted on the bottom.

The Ghetto Fighters' Museum in the Galilee, which was involved in the search, confirmed the approximate date of the bottle.

Svoray became famous in the 1990s, after infiltrating neo-Nazi groups in Germany.

The museum's experts have determined "with high probability that the glass bottle is from the period before Kristallnacht," said Tanya Ronen, who is responsible for the museum's ties to Germany.

Ronen said if the German government agrees, the museum would like to send its own experts to examine the finds, as well as groups of students.

Hundreds of Jews were killed and tens of thousands were arrested during Kristallnacht. German rioters also destroyed synagogues and Jewish businesses.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1029918.html

 

[Zachor]

You really are sucking up the centre-right narrative on these issues, aren't you?
.

I'll comment more later but yes I am taking a more centre right position on these issues possibly as I find the left and extreme left position not only extremely distasteful but also naive and potentially dangerous.