November 9th 1938 Kristallnacht

[nino_savatte]

I'll comment more later but yes I am taking a more centre right position on these issues possibly as I find the left and extreme left position not only extremely distasteful but also naive and potentially dangerous.

Whereas the right are the paragon of everything rational and reasonable. I'm afraid the centre right is just as much to blame for this as anyone else.

I am reminded of those who once regarded themselves as left wing but who suddenly lurched to the right and, in so doing, ended up being more right wing than the right wingers thy joined. One could describe such people as "born again".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'll comment more later but yes I am taking a more centre right position on these issues possibly as I find the left and extreme left position not only extremely distasteful but also naive and potentially dangerous.

And the centre-right/right narrative isn't?

You need to be honest about why your opinions have changed, accept that you've "changed sides" for the sake of conformity, not because you've suddenly "discovered" that your former opinions were "potentially dangerous".

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Give you ten years and you'll probably be living on an illegal settlement in the Occupied Territories, uprooting olive trees and hoying bricks at kids while the IDF protect you, having completed your ideological transition from leftish to the far right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whereas the right are the paragon of everything rational and reasonable. I'm afraid the centre right is just as much to blame for this as anyone else.

I am reminded of those who once regarded themselves as left wing but who suddenly lurched to the right and, in so doing, ended up being more right wing than the right wingers thy joined. One could describe such people as "born again".

There's a bunch of them in the UK known as "Eustonites", I believe.

 

[Zachor]

Whereas the right are the paragon of everything rational and reasonable. I'm afraid the centre right is just as much to blame for this as anyone else.

I am reminded of those who once regarded themselves as left wing but who suddenly lurched to the right and, in so doing, ended up being more right wing than the right wingers thy joined. One could describe such people as "born again".

I used to regard myself as left wing until I started to think more deeply. I still care passionately about improving society I just don't see how following a false religion of Marxism which was started by flawed and false prophet can bring about positive change without mass oppression and suppression of individuality. After all it is the individuals who go 'hang on thats a good idea' that move society on.

This has followed on to re evaluate things I've been told by the Left and to be frank a lot of it especially the mid east policy is naive bollocks.

 

[Zachor]

And the centre-right/right narrative isn't?

You need to be honest about why your opinions have changed, accept that you've "changed sides" for the sake of conformity, not because you've suddenly "discovered" that your former opinions were "potentially dangerous".

No I got sick of banging my head against a brick wall promoting a socialist philosophy and ideology that not only nobody wanted to listen to but it was increasingly obvious to me that the philosophy had more holes than a collander in so far is not only did it not take into account human nature but had a tendency to end up as oppression. Now I'm older and I regret bitterly the time and energy I wasted on such faff. I wish I'd been a bit more of a bastard and earned some dosh instead. No its definitely not for conformity its the result of a long slow realisatin that I was wrong.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Give you ten years and you'll probably be living on an illegal settlement in the Occupied Territories, uprooting olive trees and hoying bricks at kids while the IDF protect you, having completed your ideological transition from leftish to the far right.

I doubt it. You are more likely to find me helping in one of the cross communal initiatives over there if I did move there. Unless the borders are attacked that is then you'd find me reluctantly picking up a gun.

 

[nino_savatte]

There's a bunch of them in the UK known as "Eustonites", I believe.

Aye.

 

[nino_savatte]

I used to regard myself as left wing until I started to think more deeply. I still care passionately about improving society I just don't see how following a false religion of Marxism which was started by flawed and false prophet can bring about positive change without mass oppression and suppression of individuality. After all it is the individuals who go 'hang on thats a good idea' that move society on.

This has followed on to re evaluate things I've been told by the Left and to be frank a lot of it especially the mid east policy is naive bollocks.

Lurching to the right and thinking "deeply" aren't necessarily congruent. In fact, those on the right rarely bother to think or bother to explore or understand causality. it's far easier and quicker to deal with symptoms or to apportion blame elsewhere.

But, hello, what is this " false religion of Marxism"? Furthermore, who ever described Marx as a "prophet"? These are values that have been taken from your own personal religious experience and superimposed onto someone who was, in fact, a philosopher. But it is the use of such phrases as "flawed and false prophet" and "false religion" that are rather revealing.

 

[Zachor]

Lurching to the right and thinking "deeply" aren't necessarily congruent. In fact, those on the right rarely bother to think or bother to explore or understand causality. it's far easier and quicker to deal with symptoms or to apportion blame elsewhere.

But, hello, what is this " false religion of Marxism"? Furthermore, who ever described Marx as a "prophet"? These are values that have been taken from your own personal religious experience and superimposed onto someone who was, in fact, a philosopher. But it is the use of such phrases as "flawed and false prophet" and "false religion" that are rather revealing.

I disagree. For too long I accepted the stock answers to what was wrong with the world which was 'thatcher' 'captitalism' 'imperialism' etc and didn't really think too hard about what I was shouting out. It is only as I became more thoughtful and began to see that these nostrums were empty slogans with not much behind them.

I use the language of religion to describe Marxists as that is exactly how they behave, they treat Marx as a prophet and their politics as religion.

 

[Zachor]

There's a bunch of them in the UK known as "Eustonites", I believe.

I prefer to call them the Decent Left.

 

[butchersapron]

*throws up on nino*

 

[nino_savatte]

Kicks butchersapron in the balls.

 

[nino_savatte]

I disagree. For too long I accepted the stock answers to what was wrong with the world which was 'thatcher' 'captitalism' 'imperialism' etc and didn't really think too hard about what I was shouting out. It is only as I became more thoughtful and began to see that these nostrums were empty slogans with not much behind them.

I use the language of religion to describe Marxists as that is exactly how they behave, they treat Marx as a prophet and their politics as religion.

Yawn. We're not all like you. Btw, I'm not a member of a political party or a federation of other like-minded individuals. I think and act for myself.

 

[Zachor]

Yawn. We're not all like you. Btw, I'm not a member of a political party or a federation of other like-minded individuals. I think and act for myself.

In that case you are very different from the majority of those calling themselves socialists I've come across.

 

[nino_savatte]

In that case you are very different from the majority of those calling themselves socialists I've come across.

Not all socialists or Marxists are members of political parties...that doesn't mean that I'm an anarchist either.

 

[Zachor]

Not all socialists or Marxists are members of political parties...that doesn't mean that I'm an anarchist either.

Fair do's I just think that Marxist type socialism is dead and bearing in mind the huge number of people oppressed by various socialist govts in the 20th Cent I think rightly so. That doesn't mean I don't see any future for altruistic poltics its just that I feel that such politics needs to find a new voice not one tainted by Marxism.

 

[frogwoman]

zachor, in 1948 the palestinians weren't told to leave by the arab league. there are no reports of broadcasts by arab nations warning palestinians to leave, in fact the broadcasts by arabs mostly told the palestinians to remain in their homes.

there have been many investigations by israeli historians, including zionists such as benny morris, into this matter and they have found no evidence of "arabs" warning palestinians to leave. none whatsoever. any serious historical book on the subject will tell you that.

in fact the people who did force the palestinians out, often driving around villages in loudspeakers etc, were fighting on the side of Israel

they were driven out by Israeli fighters and the rest fled in absolute terror and panic, due to reports of atrocities like that in Deir Yassin. if you heard about an atrocity like that wouldn't you want to leave?

do some investigation before saying things like that, seriously

 

[Zachor]

zachor, in 1948 the palestinians weren't told to leave by the arab league. there are no reports of broadcasts by arab nations warning palestinians to leave, in fact the broadcasts by arabs mostly told the palestinians to remain in their homes.

there have been many investigations by israeli historians, including zionists such as benny morris, into this matter and they have found no evidence of "arabs" warning palestinians to leave. none whatsoever. any serious historical book on the subject will tell you that.

in fact the people who did force the palestinians out, often driving around villages in loudspeakers etc, were fighting on the side of Israel

they were driven out by Israeli fighters and the rest fled in absolute terror and panic, due to reports of atrocities like that in Deir Yassin. if you heard about an atrocity like that wouldn't you want to leave?

do some investigation before saying things like that, seriously

I have been doing my own investigations and yes there were reports of killings in DY but I have also read that Arabs thought that Israels army would be crushed by the surrounding Arab armies and got out of the way of the expected fighting. Whether this is the result of a direct order from the AL is debateble.

The point I'm trying to make is that the recreation of the state of Israel involved bloodshed on both sides and this has continued in subsequent years.

Unless both sides can be seen to have valid views there will never be peace. Sadly there are many on the Left who can only see one sides story and that is in no way helpful to the situation in Israel and the surrounding nations.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I prefer to call them the Decent Left.

I'm not surprised.
They too have sold out their principles, so it's natural you'd find common ground with them.

 

[Zachor]

I'm not surprised.
They too have sold out their principles, so it's natural you'd find common ground with them.

Its not so much about having no principles or selling out its standing up and admitting that previously held views were wrong in fact not just wrong but dangerous. That doesn't mean that the underlying motivation to do good isn't there just that I have rejected the means that I previously accepted.

 

[frogwoman]

sorry mate but the "broadcast" story is a myth, it never happened

many people have searched the archives looking for such an order and nobody has ever found it

read david hirst's "the gun and the olive branch" ...

 

[Spion]

Whether this is the result of a direct order from the AL is debateble.

No it's not. There were no orders to leave by the Arab League, nor any other Arab bodies for that matter. I challenge you to find the text of a single Arab order to that effect. You won't tho - there was no such order and this lie was nailed as long ago as 1959

Unless both sides can be seen to have valid views there will never be peace.

So one side has the 'valid view' which says: "You Arabs who were expelled from here in 1948 have no right to land and property which was stolen from you" while the other 'valid view' is "We'd like the right to live in our homes and on the land which was stolen from us and not to be kept in squalid ghettoes by military force."

You think both those views have equal validity do you? If so, you're a moral cripple

 

[Zachor]

sorry mate but the "broadcast" story is a myth, it never happened

many people have searched the archives looking for such an order and nobody has ever found it

read david hirst's "the gun and the olive branch" ...

Hmmmm. Will investigate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

zachor, in 1948 the palestinians weren't told to leave by the arab league. there are no reports of broadcasts by arab nations warning palestinians to leave, in fact the broadcasts by arabs mostly told the palestinians to remain in their homes.

It's a convenient myth that allows the squeamish to absolve themselves of any complicity with the results of what amounted to "ethnic cleansing"

there have been many investigations by israeli historians, including zionists such as benny morris, into this matter and they have found no evidence of "arabs" warning palestinians to leave. none whatsoever. any serious historical book on the subject will tell you that.

Which is, of course, why Rachamim insisted on the tale's veracity!

in fact the people who did force the palestinians out, often driving around villages in loudspeakers etc, were fighting on the side of Israel

Just as those who gave the orders to do so were those who governed Israel.

they were driven out by Israeli fighters and the rest fled in absolute terror and panic, due to reports of atrocities like that in Deir Yassin. if you heard about an atrocity like that wouldn't you want to leave?

do some investigation before saying things like that, seriously

There's an interesting book called "Sacred Landscape: The Buried History of the Holy Land Since 1948" by Meron Benvenisti, whose father was a Jewish cartographer employed by the state of Israel to "redact" the maps and the locales of "Arab" place-names. he engages with the ideological imperative behind this, and speculates on solutions to the impasse and it's causes.

 

[frogwoman]

it's best to buy books on the subject - internet sites are notoriously useless and simplistic

some good ones are:

"Blaming the victims: Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian question" - Christopher Hitchens/Edward Said
"Beyond Chutzpah" - Norman Finkelstein
"The gun and the olive branch" - David Hirst
"The question of Palestine" - Edward Said
"Perceptions of Palestine" - Kathleen Christison
"The question of Zion" - Jacqueline Rose

and many others

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have been doing my own investigations and yes there were reports of killings in DY but I have also read that Arabs thought that Israels army would be crushed by the surrounding Arab armies and got out of the way of the expected fighting. Whether this is the result of a direct order from the AL is debateble.

The point I'm trying to make is that the recreation of the state of Israel involved bloodshed on both sides and this has continued in subsequent years.

Unless both sides can be seen to have valid views there will never be peace. Sadly there are many on the Left who can only see one sides story and that is in no way helpful to the situation in Israel and the surrounding nations.

The state of Israel is emphatically not a "recreation" of a previous state,. NO such state existed. A kingdom did, one that was succeeded by many others.
Would a re-population of the historic site of Carthage by the genetic descendants of the Carthaginians be a "recreation" of a Carthaginian state? Of course it wouldn't, not even if the descendants shared the ancestor culture.

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry mate but you cant defend the indefensible.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its not so much about having no principles or selling out its standing up and admitting that previously held views were wrong in fact not just wrong but dangerous. That doesn't mean that the underlying motivation to do good isn't there just that I have rejected the means that I previously accepted.

IMO you're excusing yourself without self-examination.

 

[frogwoman]

Hmmmm. Will investigate.

Please do, and buy a decent book on the subject

make sure that it isn't "from time immemorial" or anything by alan dershowitz mind

 

[ViolentPanda]

Please do, and buy a decent book on the subject

make sure that it isn't "from time immemorial" or anything by alan dershowitz mind

"The Case for Israel" doesn't even work as an effective bum-wiping material!

 

[Grandma Death]

He was a better debater than all of his opponents.

Yes of course spy. It's funny how just about everyone apart from you, dwyer & JC2 found him frustrating to debate with as well as finding some of his posts offensive racist crap.

Of course that'll be our lifetime membership of the monothought cliques shining through eh.....