RIP Fidel Castro August 13, 1926 – November 25, 2016

[Gramsci]

I meet a lot of South Americans in London. They regard Che and Fidel as heroes. Might not go down well here but that its how a lot of them see them. Standing up to the "Yanquis" and the rich who collude with US. Of course other Latin Americans see it otherwise. Politics there is really divided.

My Spanish flatmate was upset that Fidel ( Fidels family came from Spain) has died. She has been to Cuba and loves it. My Argentinian friend is also mourning the loss of Fidel.

These are ordinary people not full on political activists.

For all its faults Fidel/ Che and the Cuban revolution meant a lot to many people.

 

[butchersapron]

I met a lot of South Americans in London. They regard Che and Fidel as heroes. Might not go down well here but that its how a lot of them see them. Standing up to the "Yanquis" and the rich who collude with US. Of course other Latin Americans see it otherwise. Politics there is really divided.

My Spanish flatmate was upset that Fidel has died. She has been to Cuba and loves it. My Argentinian friend is also mourning the loss of Fidel.

These are ordinary people not full on political activists.

For all its faults Fidel/ Che and the Cuban revolution meant a lot to many people.

So we shouldn't interrogate what this means? What he was, what he did? FFS.

 

[butchersapron]

If you met a load of trump supporters would cried you dare post that they/he meant a lot to some people.

Wtf is going on with this fucking political cowardice right now? Put things in context sure, but use that context to end up supporting cunts, get stuffed.

 

[Gramsci]

So we shouldn't interrogate what this means? What he was, what he did? FFS.

I am making a comment based on talking to people from Latin America (and Spain). A question is why Che/ Fidel are held in high regard by many people in South America. Despite there faults.

 

[butchersapron]

I am making a comment based on talking to people from Latin America (and Spain). A question is why Che/ Fidel are held in high regard by many people in South America. Despite there faults.

That's a question. One you didn't ask. And one that you didn't ask in the sort of "but..." was favoured by leftist defenders of authoritarian power. But...for all their faults...

 

[Gromit]

That's a question. One you didn't ask. And one that you didn't ask in the sort of "but..." was favoured by leftist defenders of authoritarian power. But...for all their faults...

Yeah who cares what foreigners think about their own...
... because at the end of the day they ain't like us and therefore faulty in their thinking obviously!!!

 

[Gromit]

On and by the way there is no such thing as a system without faults because 'humans'.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am making a comment based on talking to people from Latin America (and Spain). A question is why Che/ Fidel are held in high regard by many people in South America. Despite there faults.

Good pr

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Everyone I met in Cuba fucking hated him and his shit stinking regime.

That wasn't my experience in Cuba. I didn't detect a strong urge in people to disparage the government. I wasn't there long enough to tell whether the reason for that was because people supported the government; or because of the presence of many undercover police, and the presence of neighborhood-level political groups keeping an eye on things. Usually, anti-government denunciations to strangers, aren't something that citizens living under authoritarian regimes, are eager to engage in.

 

[Gramsci]

If you met a load of trump supporters would cried you dare post that they/he meant a lot to some people.

Wtf is going on with this fucking political cowardice right now? Put things in context sure, but use that context to end up supporting cunts, get stuffed.

So how do you explain the popularity of Che/ Fidel in South America? My Columbian friends regard Che/ Fidel as the lastest in line of leaders going back to Bolivar standing up for South Americans.

In Argentina it was the British meddling in South America. Then the US. With there support for the military dictatorships. Its how its seen there.

 

[butchersapron]

So how do you explain the popularity of Che/ Fidel in South America? My Columbian friends regard Che/ Fidel as the lastest in line of leaders going back to Bolivar standing up for South Americans.

In Argentina it was the British meddling in South America. Then the US. With there support for the military dictatorships.

How did i explain it? Through the repetition of cretinous anti-imperialism allied with an injured nationalism. Nursed by the shitty nationalist left and the far more anti-imperialist guff from the right.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Interesting article on differing reactions in Havana:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/us/politics/havana-cuba-fidel-castro-death.html

 

[classicdish]

Just read this 2005 article from the Wall Street Journal
Counting Castro's Victims

...which references the Cuba Archive Truth and Memory Project Database – Cuba Archive

...It has so far verified the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths. Archive researchers meticulously insist on confirming stories of official murder from two independent sources.

Cuba Archive President Maria Werlau says the total number of victims could be higher by a factor of 10. Project Vice President Armando Lago, a Harvard-trained economist, has spent years studying the cost of the revolution and he estimates that almost 78,000 innocents may have died trying to flee the dictatorship. Another 5,300 are known to have lost their lives fighting communism in the Escambray Mountains (mostly peasant farmers and their children) and at the Bay of Pigs. An estimated 14,000 Cubans were killed in Fidel's revolutionary adventures abroad, most notably his dispatch of 50,000 soldiers to Angola in the 1980s to help the Soviet-backed regime fight off the Unita insurgency....

I can't say anything about the independence / quality / bias of this organisation, but someone did ask about examples of people being killed.

 

[J Ed]

Yeah who cares what foreigners think about their own...
... because at the end of the day they ain't like us and therefore faulty in their thinking obviously!!!

Who are we to judge Syrian and Iraq Sunni tribesmen if they want to pledge baya to the Islamic State?

 

[Pickman's model]

Who are we to judge Syrian and Iraq Sunni tribesmen if they want to pledge baya to the Islamic State?

We are urban

 

[not-bono-ever]

anecdotral from the visits there- He genuinely seemed to be respected amongst the older Cubans. they had nothing good to say about the rest of the system- Raul seemed to be openly disliked.

Anyeay, Trump enterprises will be back in there soon with the hotelsand it will revert to being a sex tourist hell and Spring break poophole. I think its finshed as a remenant of the Sov Block period. Will be interesting to see how it pans out with property and assets and shit, as the big Deco homes owned by the yanks have been subdivided and house multiple familes now.

Think Twice Before Buying Cuban Bonds

oldish articel about the market in old regime Cuban bonds being hawked around for chancers

 

[mrs quoad]

A la pogofish there's another thread about this already.

I woke up quite suddenly at the time he died, and couldn't get back to sleep. I was thinking about Cuba and the Caribbean. Maybe it's an omen.

If it was *at* the time he died, then I'm pretty sure it can't have been an omen.

But perhaps someone else has presaged this comment.

 

[Raheem]

Just read this 2005 article from the Wall Street Journal
Counting Castro's Victims

...which references the Cuba Archive Truth and Memory Project Database – Cuba Archive

I can't say anything about the independence / quality / bias of this organisation, but someone did ask about examples of people being killed.

This is an interesting resource. It seems to be mainly based on the testimony of Cuban exiles, which I would suppose will be of variable reliability.

It has 6,180 deaths attributed to the Casto regime, but most of these are combat deaths and people who drowned trying to get to Florida. If you focus on the various categories of execution and extra-judicial killings, there are 74, including 36 executions by firing squad. Most of the rest are people shot by coastguards trying to leave.

Spot-checking these, I didn't come across any that seemed especially outrageous (putting aside my own objections to capital punishment). One disappeared after attempting to infiltrate into Cuba under CIA orders. One was executed for burning down a department store. One for a failed bombing. One for escaping prison. One captured CIA spy. I did find one who was alleged to have murdered a member of staff at the Vatican Embassy, but where there is also a claim that no such murder took place, so maybe that one is dodgy.

Anyway, what I think it doesn't reflect is people being bumped off left, light and centre just for being left, right or centre.

 

[Fez909]

I think Cuba post-Castro is in a better place than it was pre-Castro. And for that reason, I think his 'legacy' will be positive.

Yes, he had his faults. The repression of gay people and political activists was abhorrent. The mismanagement of the country's infrastructure is unforgivable, and the lack of democracy has endangered the one thing he claimed to be all about: the revolution. Without democratic society, there is likely to be a violent aftermath to his reign, like Venezuela post-Chavez.

But anyone who has been there must have experience how safe a country it is. How, despite the abject poverty, the people are fed, homed, educated and have access to health care.

If you compare Cuba to its neighbours, it can only be seen as a success.

I don't mean to write off the very real suffering that people have experienced, but if I was to be born in the Carribean, then I would hope that it would be Cuba rather than Haiti or Jamaica etc.

 

[classicdish]

It has 6,180 deaths attributed to the Casto regime, but most of these are combat deaths and people who drowned trying to get to Florida. If you focus on the various categories of execution and extra-judicial killings, there are 74, including 36 executions by firing squad. Most of the rest are people shot by coastguards trying to leave.

I don't know where you found those numbers.

For example the actual number for execution by firing squad is 3118

Full list by cause of death:

No Cause of death listed 1301
Exit attempt: Disappearance 890
Extrajudicial killing 2036
Execution: by firing squad 3118
N/A or Undetermined 174
Combat: Fatality or Missing in Action 1814
Disappearance: non-combat 106
Accidental/Unintentional 171
Medical condition/Denial of medical care 326
Suicide/Alleged Suicide 170
Other 129
Execution 62
Exit attempt: Dehydration/Drowning/Etc. 186
Terrorism/Attack on civilian 56
Prisoner/Detainee: reported natural causes 6
Killed by bomb or mine explosion 112
Hunger strike 18
Exit attempt: Killed by mines 6
Disappearance: Forced 53
Politically-motivated killing by non-state agent(s) 10
Exit attempt: Extrajudicial killing 21
Exit attempt: Forced Disappearance 18
Exit attempt: Other 9
Execution & prior blood extraction 2

Also the WSJ article says that the project "has so far verified the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths" and that was over 10 years ago, so presumably the number will have gone up since then.

 

[DotCommunist]

Hottest take of the day.

View attachment 96160

fucking twat he is

 

[rover07]

Fidel at the UN speaking about Human Rights.

 

[Raheem]

I don't know where you found those numbers.

For example the actual number for execution by firing squad is 3118

Full list by cause of death:

Also the WSJ article says that the project "has so far verified the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths" and that was over 10 years ago, so presumably the number will have gone up since then.

OK. I specified the location as "Cuba", but many of the entries have this as a blank field, so I've excluded about 2,000 results. But I also think you've searched for execution by firing squad without specifying that the death needed to be attributable to the Castro regime, which would bring the total down. Worth noting also that if you run a search for deaths by firing squad that took place under the Batista regime but are attributable to the Castro regime you get 814 returns. So, not the greatest database ever put together.

Anyway, the point is how many executions are for crimes such as trade-unionism and homosexuality. That's what I don't think happened, at least not on any scale.

 

[extra dry]

I going to watch 'Scar face' to get up to speed on Cuban politics.

 

[classicdish]

Worth noting also that if you run a search for deaths by firing squad that took place under the Batista regime but are attributable to the Castro regime you get 814 returns. So, not the greatest database ever put together.

Why? Doesn't this just imply that Castro started executing people before he had actually taken power?

Also I didn't do a selective search like you suggest. I just went to this page: Cuba Archive - Reports

and chose "by cause of death"

 

[Raheem]

Why? Doesn't this just imply that Castro started executing people before he had actually taken power?

It shouldn't, because there's a separate category of "Castro rebel army" to cover that.

Also I didn't do a selective search like you suggest. I just went to this page: Cuba Archive - Reports

and chose "by cause of death"

Yes, that makes sense. This would have given you all executions regardless of who carried them out.

 

[Wilf]

Surely May will have to attend funeral, in a way of respects to (former) Head of State blah blah. Interesting.

Maybe send Ambassador Farage.

 

[Jay Park]

His retrospective explanation for the persecution of homosexuals sounds contrived. Lip service paid to changing times. I was genuinely afflicted when I heard after a booze but it's hard to disagree with BA. Ever.

 

[classicdish]

Yes, that makes sense. This would have given you all executions regardless of who carried them out.

Well out of the 9000-odd entries on the database they breakdown as follows:

Death Attributed Cases

No Death attribution listed 1248
Anti-Castro forces or elements 300
Armed forces of another country 47
Batista regime 1279
Castro Rebel Army / Anti-Batista Resistance 376
Castro regime 7179
N/A or Undetermined 177
Other 117

You said the following:

It has 6,180 deaths attributed to the Casto regime, but most of these are combat deaths and people who drowned trying to get to Florida. If you focus on the various categories of execution and extra-judicial killings, there are 74, including 36 executions by firing squad. Most of the rest are people shot by coastguards trying to leave.

I think it should be very clear to anyone that claiming '36 executions by firing squad' is bizarre. It doesn't come from this database and just doesn't correspond to reality.

Here is a quote from wikipedia with some more estimates / claims about the total numbers of executions in Cuba over the years:

Human rights in Cuba - Wikipedia

Political executions[edit]
Various estimates have been made to ascertain the number of political executions carried out on behalf of the Cuban government in Cuba since the revolution. According to Amnesty International, death sentences from 1959–87 numbered 237 of which all but 21 were actually carried out.[19] The Cuban Government justified such measures on the grounds that the application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials. Some Cuban scholars maintain that had the government not applied severe legislation against the torturers, terrorists, and other criminals employed by the Batista regime, the people themselves would have taken justice into their own hands.[20]

Latin American historian Thomas E. Skidmore says there had been 550 executions in the first six months of 1959.[21] British historian Hugh Thomas, in his study Cuba or the pursuit of freedom[22] stated that "perhaps" 5,000 executions had taken place by 1970,[21] while The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators ascertained that there had been 2,113 political executions between the years of 1958–67.[21]

Professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, Rudolph J. Rummel estimated the number of political executions at between 4,000 and 33,000 from 1958–87, with a mid range of 15,000.[23]

One estimate from The Black Book of Communism is that throughout Cuba 15,000–17,000 people were executed.

The vast majority of those executed following the 1959 revolution were policemen, politicians and informers of the Batista regime accused of crimes such as torture and murder, and their public trials and executions had widespread popular support among the Cuban population. Scholars generally agree that those executed were probably guilty as accused, but that the trials did not follow due process.[24]

 

[Humberto]

America imprisons more people per head. Should imagine executes more too.