November 9th 1938 Kristallnacht

[Johnny Canuck3]

It looks like you two were cut from the same cloth. Didn't you introduce him to U75? I believe you did; I recall you getting a bit snippy on that Arafat/AIDS thread and told us that you "knew a Zionist" who would invite to Urban to provide, as you put it, "balance".

Are you psychotic, or just an idiot?

 

[Spion]

He was a better debater than all of his opponents.

Oh, he was good in the sense of being a street fighter - ie, low down in the gutter in terms of integrity and veracity. He was the nastiest bully in the playground, and it's interseting how the no-marks who don't have the balls to go as low as him or the intellect to attempt to fight his corner with some decent arguments line(d) right up behind him.

You don't have to be a fascist to defend Israel. FFS, even Finkelstein is for two states.

 

[frogwoman]

the fact is, the palestinians aren't in a position, economically or militarily, to "destroy israel" no matter what their own or israeli propaganda says

for fucks sake, even the arab armies of 1948 and 1967 had inferior weaponry and even numbers to that of Israel

however, israel in its current state is completely unsustainable without huge changes being made to its structure and the basis of its laws, one way or another

you can't have a state based on discriminating between one group and another, which is basically what the "jewishness" of the state of israel unfortunately amounts to

how is it fair that i, who have never been to israel and have very little desire to live there, can book a flight to israel tomorrow and be able to become a citizen, and someone who has been living there their whole life can't be granted israeli citizenship?

i do support two states but i think for either one to be viable, massive changes will have to be made to the whole society there ...

israel will have to come to these reforms quickly ... the world is fast losing its patience with it and if it is going to survive it will have to make these changes, for the sake of everyone living there

 

[Fedayn]

Another thread where rachamim spouts his poisonous 'my fascism good someone elses fascism bad' bollocks.

 

[Fedayn]

Whatever. Rachamim was by far the most informed person posting in the M.E. forum regardless of what you thought of his vews

What a ridiculously contradictory statement. It simply shows up your own personal sympathy for his position nothing more.

He was a better debater than all of his opponents.

If by debate you mean making cliams that anti-zionism = anti=semitism. That Jews who reject Zionism are self haters. A refusal to debate what is being discussed and a penchant for anti arab racism then yes you're right.

 

[scifisam]

the fact is, the palestinians aren't in a position, economically or militarily, to "destroy israel" no matter what their own or israeli propaganda says

for fucks sake, even the arab armies of 1948 and 1967 had inferior weaponry and even numbers to that of Israel

however, israel in its current state is completely unsustainable without huge changes being made to its structure and the basis of its laws, one way or another

you can't have a state based on discriminating between one group and another, which is basically what the "jewishness" of the state of israel unfortunately amounts to

how is it fair that i, who have never been to israel and have very little desire to live there, can book a flight to israel tomorrow and be able to become a citizen, and someone who has been living there their whole life can't be granted israeli citizenship?

i do support two states but i think for either one to be viable, massive changes will have to be made to the whole society there ...

israel will have to come to these reforms quickly ... the world is fast losing its patience with it and if it is going to survive it will have to make these changes, for the sake of everyone living there

I agree with all that, particularly the sentence I bolded. Creating a Palestinian state is necessary for the Israelis as well as the Palestinians. Hopefully some politicians will eventually realise that.

 

[frogwoman]

I agree with all that, particularly the sentence I bolded. Creating a Palestinian state is necessary for the Israelis as well as the Palestinians. Hopefully some politicians will eventually realise that.

not just a palestinian state, but one that doesn't look like a piece of swiss cheese because of the settlements and israeli controlled areas and that isn't going to get bombed to fuckery every five minutes by the idf

the palestinians are in far more of an "existential threat" from israeli state apparatus and the army, than vice versa

it is time the israeli elite realised this, because its actions are not only endangering civilians in places like sderot and what have you, but increasingly all jews are being tarred with the brush of zionism

if they don't yield to diplomatic pressure, eventually someone will call for other means to be used and its time the israeli government woke up and realised that they can't carry on doing whatever the fuck they like, for ever.

 

[Spion]

The problem as I see it is that there is a large and vocal hardcore of Zionists, jewish and christian, in Israel and abroad, that is basically prepared to stick with the violent, oppressive status quo in which Gaza is an unbearable hellhole in a steel ring created by the IDF and where the WB is mostly under Israeli military rule. The rights and wrongs of the situation as pointed out repeatedly by the UN etc don't matter to them. What they see is the prize in two or three generations of the normalisation to Israel of those territories with a much reduced Palestinian population forced out by the sheer hopelessness of living there. So, the task, as exmplified by Rachamim, is to obfuscate and delay as much as possible, never admitting any culpability at all. I'm not saying they'll get what they want, but I certainly think that's the aim - a supporter of a greater Israel has to do nothing other than cloud the issues, demonise and delay to get nearer to what they want at the expense of the Palestinians

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes of course spy. It's funny how just about everyone apart from you, dwyer & JC2 found him frustrating to debate with as well as finding some of his posts offensive racist crap.

Of course that'll be our lifetime membership of the monothought cliques shining through eh.....

If by debate, our friend means stonewalling your opponents with reams of content and evidence free posts, then he hasn't got a clue.

 

[nino_savatte]

Are you psychotic, or just an idiot?

Pot-kettle-black, dimwit. You were the one who invited him here and now you're trying to lie your way out of it. Typical.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The more I try to think of the practicalities of a two-state solution, the more unworkable it seems. The solution, imvho, has to be one state for the area that is currently Israel and the occupied territories.

If a state is to define itself by geographical boundaries, it has to represent everyone within those boundaries. To give in to non-secularists' notions of a 'Jewish' state and an 'Arab' state is to abandon this secular ideal. I think it is also to simply postpone trouble. Two groups of people lay claim to the same land. They must find a way to accommodate one another in the same state.

As it is, any two-state solution will inevitably involve the new Palestine being given the shittest land, worst access to water, and quite possibly a patchwork-like territory. I don't see how that can possibly lead to anything other than further conflict.

 

[Idris2002]

The more I try to think of the practicalities of a two-state solution, the more unworkable it seems. The solution, imvho, has to be one state for the area that is currently Israel and the occupied territories.

If a state is to define itself by geographical boundaries, it has to represent everyone within those boundaries. To give in to non-secularists' notions of a 'Jewish' state and an 'Arab' state is to abandon this secular ideal. I think it is also to simply postpone trouble. Two groups of people lay claim to the same land. They must find a way to accommodate one another in the same state.

As it is, any two-state solution will inevitably involve the new Palestine being given the shittest land, worst access to water, and quite possibly a patchwork-like territory. I don't see how that can possibly lead to anything other than further conflict.

That's the conclusion I've come to as well. And that's why I think it's important to recognise that underneath the chauvinism that characterises so much of Zionism there is still the fear that drove the growth of Zionism in the first place. That is the fear of anti-semitism and its potential consequences for Jewish people, which as we know could be (and have already been) terrible indeed. A one-state solution will only be viable, in the end, if it can guarantee the human rights of the Jewish population of historic Palestine; and this will be even more important if (as seems likely) demographic trends will produce an Arab majority within a couple of generations.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's the conclusion I've come to as well. And that's why I think it's important to recognise that underneath the chauvinism that characterises so much of Zionism there is still the fear that drove the growth of Zionism in the first place. That is the fear of anti-semitism and its potential consequences for Jewish people, which as we know could be (and have already been) terrible indeed. A one-state solution will only be viable, in the end, if it can guarantee the human rights of the Jewish population of historic Palestine; and this will be even more important if (as seems likely) demographic trends will produce an Arab majority within a couple of generations.

Yes, I agree. Uncomfortable compromises would have to be made on both sides. It would be an uneasy state, at least at first. There would probably need to be a number of parallel institutions as there are in Belgium. But it has to be the way forward.

After all, they're never going to agree on the 'ownership' of Jerusalem. And if they can share a capital city, they can share a state.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A one-state solution will only be viable, in the end, if it can guarantee the human rights of the Jewish population of historic Palestine.

This point, again, is what makes a two-state solution seem so impossible. I don't see how you can disentangle 'guaranteeing the rights of the Jewish population' from 'giving the Jewish population the best bits of land', as this is what is currently proposed as a solution. And it is not a solution to anything at all.

 

[frogwoman]

That's the conclusion I've come to as well. And that's why I think it's important to recognise that underneath the chauvinism that characterises so much of Zionism there is still the fear that drove the growth of Zionism in the first place. That is the fear of anti-semitism and its potential consequences for Jewish people, which as we know could be (and have already been) terrible indeed. A one-state solution will only be viable, in the end, if it can guarantee the human rights of the Jewish population of historic Palestine; and this will be even more important if (as seems likely) demographic trends will produce an Arab majority within a couple of generations.

exactly.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Pot-kettle-black, dimwit. You were the one who invited him here and now you're trying to lie your way out of it. Typical.

You're fucked in the head. It's not true, so stop saying it.

 

[nino_savatte]

You're fucked in the head. It's not true, so stop saying it.

I didn't expect you to admit to it as you're rather fond of telling porkies. Your memory isn't so good either.

 

[HackneyE9]

So one of Johnny's mates is a rabid zionist and the other is that gun-mad whack job who invited him to a barbeque in order to kill him?

You need some better mates, Johnny.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I didn't expect you to admit to it as you're rather fond of telling porkies. Your memory isn't so good either.

Prove it, or shut up.

You know that rachamim isn't around anymore to also deny it, so you see an opportunity to advance a lie. How typical for you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Prove it, or shut up.

You know that rachamim isn't around anymore to also deny it, so you see an opportunity to advance a lie. How typical for you.

So you want me to trawl through every single thread while you use the often-employed defence of "I didn't say it"?

The only one here who is lying is you.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So you want me to trawl through every single thread while you use the often-employed defence of "I didn't say it"?

The only one here who is lying is you.

He who alleges, must prove.

Or, you can just fuck off. The choice is yours.

 

[nino_savatte]

He who alleges, must prove.

Or, you can just fuck off. The choice is yours.

Do you expect me to trawl through every thread to find it? You realise that this is nearly impossible which is why you use this a defence. You also have a reputation for lying your way out of trouble. You may have nothing better to do with your time than to sit at a computer and wind people up but I actually have a life away from the keyboard.

Of course, you and him were rather cosy over in the ME forum.

Methinks you doth protest too much. You and Diesel were mates on here, weren't you? You remember Diesel...or are you going to tell us that you don't know what I'm talking about?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Do you expect me to trawl through every thread to find it? You realise that this is nearly impossible which is why you use this a defence. You also have a reputation for lying your way out of trouble. You may have nothing better to do with your time than to sit at a computer and wind people up but I actually have a life away from the keyboard.

Of course, you and him were rather cosy over in the ME forum.

Methinks you doth protest too much. You and Diesel were mates on here, weren't you? You remember Diesel...or are you going to tell us that you don't know what I'm talking about?

I don't expect you to do anything.

I say it didn't happen. You say it did.

I'll rely on the general opinion of you on the boards, to assist people in determining who is the liar.

Now, I think I'll go take a shower.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't expect you to do anything.

I say it didn't happen. You say it did.

I'll rely on the general opinion of you on the boards, to assist people in determining who is the liar.

Now, I think I'll go take a shower.

That's right, Canuck, wriggle. You said it over 3 years ago. While I have a good memory, it is obvious that you have a selective one.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That's right, Canuck, wriggle. You said it over 3 years ago. While I have a good memory, it is obvious that you have a selective one.

I'm done with you.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm done with you.

That's right, you run off. You don't remember this thread, do you?
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=159126&highlight=canuck

 

[butchersapron]

To illustrate what i was talking about in my long post earlier in the thread on post-war italian revisionism and the construction of the image of italian fascism as not being anti-semitic etc:

Italian Praised for Saving Jews Is Now Seen as Nazi Collaborator

But at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, the tale of his heroic exploits is being removed from an exhibition after officials there learned of new evidence suggesting that, far from being a hero, he was an enthusiastic Nazi collaborator involved in the deportation of Jews to Auschwitz.

A letter sent this month to the museum’s director by the Centro Primo Levi at the Center for Jewish Studies in New York stated that a research panel of more than a dozen scholars who reviewed nearly 700 documents concluded that for six years, Palatucci was “a willing executor of the racial legislation and — after taking the oath to Mussolini’s Social Republic, collaborated with the Nazis.”

The letter said that Italian and German records provided no evidence that he had helped Jews during the war and that the first mention only surfaced years later, in 1952. Researchers also found documents that showed Palatucci had helped the Germans identify Jews to round up.

Still, many scholars portray the belated claims of some Italians that they went out of their way to save Jews as part of an attempt to recast Italy’s Fascist past. “The default statement of every Fascist leader after the war was that ‘I helped the Jews,’ ” Dr. Indrimi said.

Alexander Stille, a professor at the Columbia University journalism school who has reviewed some of the documents, said the Palatucci case is a result of three powerful institutions, all with a vested interest in publicizing what appeared to be a heroic tale: “The Italian government was anxious to rehabilitate itself and show that they were better and more humane than their Nazi allies. The Catholic Church was eager to tell a positive story about the church’s role during the war, and the State of Israel was eager to promote the idea of righteous gentiles and tell stories of right-minded ordinary people who helped to save ordinary Jews.”