Noam Chomsky: 9-11: Institutional Analysis vs. Conspiracy Theory

[Kid_Eternity]

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

But much more fun.

 

[snouty warthog]

That was my first thought but I've heard lots of weirdo crap about Chomsky being a front for the CIA/US gov/Lizards distracting us from "the truth" about power...

er... actually, that is my loosely held opinion (not the lizards bit). I think he is a shill for the elite agenda. I don't neccessarily think it's 'weirdo crap'. it's just an opinion.

 

[Fruitloop]

Why, exactly? There seems to me to be absolutely no evidence for that whatsoever.

 

[kyser_soze]

The 'evidence' usually cited is that Noam refuses to countenance any of the drivel about Kennedy, and now the issue of 9/11 - obviously this makes him a shill for the CIA (I think he's on record as saying 'I doubt that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, and even if there were it doesn't matter because all it would do is demonstrate my points about the abuse of power by élites' - or something to that effect.

Plus his general feeling that the Kennedy business is little more than an excuse to make a lot of money out of the gullible. I personally stopped bothering with the Kennedy stuff after seeing a show with a CGI reconstruction that pretty much debunked most, if not all, of the 'physical' reasons Oswald couldn't have done it (from showing how the layout of the car seats meant that the mayor was directly in line for the 'magic bullet' shot; that Oswald was more than capable of firing that many shots, and was technically good enough to be accurate etc)...

 

[Fruitloop]

Kennedy was a silver-spoon arsewipe anyway. We need to shoot more of these bastards, not less.

 

[kyser_soze]

With a crooked Daddy who bought him the Presidency, a sufferer of addison's disease which is why he always looked so tan, and legendarily priapic on a scale that made slick Willy's dalliance with Monica Lewinsky look like a sunday school lesson...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

er... actually, that is my loosely held opinion (not the lizards bit). I think he is a shill for the elite agenda. I don't neccessarily think it's 'weirdo crap'. it's just an opinion.

Oh dear...

 

[snouty warthog]

yeah, it's worrying isn't it; if he is I mean?

 

[editor]

yeah, it's worrying isn't it; if he is I mean?

I find people posting up fact-free slurs about highly respected authors a bit more worrying, to be honest.

 

[Fruitloop]

I dunno, if we can get the CIA to disguise all of their operatives as influential leftist intellectuals we might be on to a winner.

 

[8den]

This is how it really went down

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dick, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic..._the_hopeless_stupidity_of_911_conspiracies/1

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I find people posting up fact-free slurs about highly respected authors a bit more worrying, to be honest.

Me too.

 

[snouty warthog]

I am not sure if a flagged 'loosely held opinion' can be considered a slur. if you think it's actionable ed, I'll take it down. however, I have heard far worse things said about other people all across this board.

I am really not the slightest bit bothered about Chomsky. I can't honestly retract my statement, because it *is* my opinion, but let me say, I do think that he's a jolly nice chap. an absolute gent, and a big tipper to boot, so I hear...

 

[Jazzz]

You couldn't make it up


http://www.newsday.com/am-plane1012...sns-ap-hockey-headlines&track=mostemailedlink

From yesterdays plane crash.

Curious! But that's a tiny plane which presumably crashed at a slow speed as possible, don't think one can really compare the two, especially as in 9/11 the four black boxes from the WTC were officially not found (unofficially they were).

 

[axon]

Ah but your forgetting that that wasn't really a plane the other day was it? It was a holographic plane disguising a missile. The passport was then planted by The State to make it look like it's possible for a passport to survive a plane going into a building thus adding credibility to the Official 911 Story which has been weakened so much by the Truth Seekers informed and intelligent discussions.

 

[Structaural]

The 'evidence' usually cited is that Noam refuses to countenance any of the drivel about Kennedy, and now the issue of 9/11 - obviously this makes him a shill for the CIA (I think he's on record as saying 'I doubt that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, and even if there were it doesn't matter because all it would do is demonstrate my points about the abuse of power by élites' - or something to that effect.

Plus his general feeling that the Kennedy business is little more than an excuse to make a lot of money out of the gullible. I personally stopped bothering with the Kennedy stuff after seeing a show with a CGI reconstruction that pretty much debunked most, if not all, of the 'physical' reasons Oswald couldn't have done it (from showing how the layout of the car seats meant that the mayor was directly in line for the 'magic bullet' shot; that Oswald was more than capable of firing that many shots, and was technically good enough to be accurate etc)...

ah but you can prove anything with them computers, they'll say

 

[editor]

Curious! But that's a tiny plane which presumably crashed at a slow speed as possible, don't think one can really compare the two, especially as in 9/11 the four black boxes from the WTC were officially not found (unofficially they were).

So you'll just completely discount the real-world, documented evidence of a passport being found minutes after a catastrophic skyscraper air crash because it clearly contradicts the 'truthseekers' claims about the 9/11 passport, yes?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well, not really. Because as last night's "accident" was clearly arranged to keep the Iraq war figures off the news, they might as well arrange for a passport to be "found" while they were doing it. Two birds with one stone.

 

[8den]

Curious! But that's a tiny plane which presumably crashed at a slow speed as possible, don't think one can really compare the two, especially as in 9/11 the four black boxes from the WTC were officially not found (unofficially they were).

So it's not possible for a piece of paper to be blowed outwards in a larger explosion?

Oh and pray do tell who found the black boxed and what did they say?

Hold the fucking phone, you were just agreeing with the holographic planes and the missile theory weren't you? How were black boxes from missiles unoffically found?

 

[exosculate]

er... actually, that is my loosely held opinion (not the lizards bit). I think he is a shill for the elite agenda. I don't neccessarily think it's 'weirdo crap'. it's just an opinion.

FFS

 

[exosculate]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic..._the_hopeless_stupidity_of_911_conspiracies/1

Very nice.

I think the true focus if there is to be one - is that not all the information about what happened has been released. Although I hardly think that is conspiratorial.

 

[Fruitloop]

Let me get this straight; the passports must have been destroyed because the black boxes were, although really they weren't. In fact the black boxes were secretly recovered, even though there were no planes and so they didn't actually exist. So the non-destruction of the nonexistant black boxes proves conclusively that the passports would have been destroyed, had they been on the planes (i.e. missiles), which they weren't.

Makes perfect sense

 

[exosculate]

Let me get this straight; the passports must have been destroyed because the black boxes were, although really they weren't. In fact the black boxes were secretly recovered, even though there were no planes and so they didn't actually exist.

Makes perfect sense

The reptiles have the black box's safely hidden away at New York zoo.

 

[Fruitloop]

TBH that theory is about as good as the others!

 

[Jazzz]

So it's not possible for a piece of paper to be blowed outwards in a larger explosion?

Oh and pray do tell who found the black boxed and what did they say?

Hold the fucking phone, you were just agreeing with the holographic planes and the missile theory weren't you? How were black boxes from missiles unoffically found?

Looking at the South Tower fireball, I would have to say it's utterly fantastic for a passport to survive that, and would seem an incredible coincidence that it happened to be a passport of one of the hijackers, also that it was found by an FBI person.

The claim as to the finding of the black boxes is here

I don't agree with the holographic planes theory. I am just not dismissing it completely as it appears the technology may well exist. It is not me that is saying they know exactly what happened on 9/11 - that's the USG. It should be up to them to provide an irrefutable case for it, without all the holes, oddities and unanswered questions - if what they say happened did that should be very easy.

 

[squeegee]

Thats the problem you/they believe that the "gubiment"/NWO/illuminati" (delete where appropriate) brought down the towers using holographic planes/thermite/C4 and offer little proof for any of it.

You/they glad to see you understand the concept of generalisation. Of course rationalists like you never deal in such things...except when you do.

If that sentence teachs us anything it's that;

A) you know fuck all about history.

B) and less about Quantum Theory.

And of course because you say that's the case it is. I think you deserve another for that bit of unsubstantiated, totally subjective hogwash. I doubt you have ever spoken with a real life quantum physicist. I have. But that's beside the point. Tell me how the universe is about absolutes then. Please enlighten me.

You couldn't make it up


http://www.newsday.com/am-plane1012...sns-ap-hockey-headlines&track=mostemailedlink

From yesterdays plane crash.

maybe I couldn't, but journalists, police and anyone else with a vested interest certainly can and you also can and do, and of course when it suits you, you can believe anything. So a passport was found at the site...look how you accept any story that fits into your neat supposition that it proves something against conspiracy nuts...who all think exactly the same thoughts of course. You use exactly the same rationale you accuse conspiracy theorists of using, but you're too dumb to see how you do the same. Truly sad.

I mean honestly, you think by acting as if you are some harbinger of logic, without diplaying ANY logic in your argument you convince me of your intelligence? Trust me you don't even begin to. You need your mates backing you up to make it look like you are winning. All patting you on the back like playground bullies. And like bullies you are cowards at heart.

Your attempts at showing me how your logic works fail miserably as do all those pathetic 1,000 page websites that claim to disprove conspiracies. If you can't see where the logic fails in that you truly are as weak a debater as you display on this thread.

You have nothing but your pathetically weak arguments and your gimps to back you up. Oh sorry, for a second there it was almost like arguing with...hmmmmm

Sad fuckers

 

[squeegee]

and by the way that plane scattered debris, it did not disintegrate like the boeings did on 911. explain to me how passports flew out of those planes on 911. you honestly believe they did? and you honestly accept that black box recorders weren't found?

purleese

gullible don't even begin to describe you...

 

[editor]

I don't agree with the holographic planes theory. I am just not dismissing it completely as it appears the technology may well exist.

In your head, perhaps.

And in that sci-fi 'army manual' set in 2025, of course.

 

[editor]

You have nothing but your pathetically weak arguments and your gimps to back you up.

Sad fuckers

You know, it just might be time for you to leave.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

And of course because you say that's the case it is. I think you deserve another for that bit of unsubstantiated, totally subjective hogwash. I doubt you have ever spoken with a real life quantum physicist. I have. But that's beside the point. Tell me how the universe is about absolutes then. Please enlighten me.

Wow, you spoke to one once! Wow, i'm just like, wow, i mean. Wow.