Noam Chomsky: 9-11: Institutional Analysis vs. Conspiracy Theory

[pk]

He's got one hour left of his ban.

I do hope he's not prepared a week's worth of cut and paste.

I do. Surely that would qualify him for a permaban?

 

[SneakyMonkey]

He's got one hour left of his ban.

I do hope he's not prepared a week's worth of cut and paste.

Ahhhh, that explains his absence and lack of contribution to this thread. I also hope he's going to give the c&p a miss - or perhaps not if that would mean another cheeky little ban...

 

[kyser_soze]

With an estimate out today from epidemiologists putting the additional deaths caused by the US/UK in Iraq at 655,000, the couple of thousand in the WTC is indeed starting to look quite minor.

Yeah, but it makes the actual event itself even more pivotal - and the requirement for any evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Bush et al to be absolutely beyond reproach or any kind of murkyness. 9/11 was indeed the 'catalyst' event so beloved of pnac afficianados (and usually used as evidence of motive for enabling some form of conspiracy), and it has led to 655,000 people dying around the world as a result of US Foreign Policy.

However, as it is now becoming clear, Iraq was on the table anyway - 9/11 was probably useful in 'justfying' Enduring Freedom, but given the momentum in the Bush administration for going back I think Iraq would have happened anyway.

So we're back to assessing whether it was a deliberate act by the USG to down the towers, or whether it was LIHOP (as the Woodward book indicates)...whichever, the case that could be bought against Bush, Cheney and Rice is one of failure to protect the Union as that's a direct violation of the Oath of Office BUT it's importance means that the evidence gathered has to be beyond watertight...

And Bigga - this isn't about 'bullying' at all; some of us have been responding to the same stuff for YEARS on threads like this, and quite frankly anyone who comes out with preposterous bollocks like 'The 2nd tower collapse was a hologram', 'There were missles on the planes' wings' and 'The planes were flown by remote control' deserves the contempt they get.

 

[ska invita]

I have lost some respect for him..

as I said, he is right ot distance himself and keep his good name aligned with concrete facts.

 

[Structaural]

Cheers for this. Superb -- I'm starting to think Conspiracy Theorists (TM) are becoming a cult - see the comments.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

And Bigga - this isn't about 'bullying' at all; some of us have been responding to the same stuff for YEARS on threads like this, and quite frankly anyone who comes out with preposterous bollocks like 'The 2nd tower collapse was a hologram', 'There were missles on the planes' wings' and 'The planes were flown by remote control' deserves the contempt they get.

Well said and I’d agree with pk comment above about Badgers Kitten too.

 

[DJ Bigga]

So because of what's being said, the mass reaction and ganging up isn't bullying? Whatever.

Anyway I don't feel that strongly about it, just wanted to point out the hypocratic stand point of certain posters on here.

 

[Structaural]

So because of what's being said, the mass reaction and ganging up isn't bullying? Whatever.

Anyway I don't feel that strongly about it, just wanted to point out the hypocratic stand point of certain posters on here.

Who though? cos you haven't pointed anything or anyone out, you're just doing that Urban75 is a group conciousness stuff rather than actually taking on any 'hypocritical' poster (I assume you meant that and not something to with the medical profession).

 

[8den]

That thread was several years ago - it was just me then. And didn't you ridicule me for it. Now, there's millions of us. You should have archived it.

There maybe millions of you, but theres a dedicated group of debunkers and skeptics out there, and they're growing.

Editor, pk et all, I give you, the JRECers They've got a several hundred page thread on "Loose Change" alone. Every detail every claim every theory picked apart and exposing the flaws and pseudo science at the heart of the conspiracy theories. One of them, Gravy, spends his saturdays at Ground Zero, arguing with the "troothers" the 911 conspiracy theorists who gather there to spread their nonsense.

Oh and if thats not good enough. meet the BAUT boys Thats it Jazzz, you and your ilk, have gone and done it, you've pissed off the astrophysicists. Any dubious scientific claim about "freefall" or "G force" or anything else, gets torn apart in a frenzy of maths, science and logic.

Your numbers may be growing, but you'll find there are places where your theories are treated with the scorn and contempt they deserve.

 

[pk]

Oh man, these links should definiteely be stickies.

Or tattoed upon the faces of people like jazzz.

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

http://www.bautforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19

Nice one 8den!

 

[kyser_soze]

Brilliant link on WTC7...

http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2006/09/wtc-7-was-severely-damaged-on-south.html

Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 - 18 years

Boyle: ... on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all,
but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good.

... Then we received an order from Fellini, we're going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn't look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn't really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I'm standing next to said, that building doesn't look straight. So I'm standing there. I'm looking at the building. It didn't look right, but, well, we'll go in, we'll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody's going into 7, there's creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

top sites 8den!

 

[8den]

Posted this one another form a few weeks ago, after the Shayler article in the new statesman;

Conspiraloons would like to present the 911 "truth" movement, as valiant knights wielding the sword of truth against the dragon of "gubivment". A digital Woodward and Bernstein, with Youtube and Google video as their deep throat.

The motives and ideology of the people in the 911 truth movement are never questioned, the reasons they present their argument is rarely explained. Surely if we're going to spend hours laboriously examining the people they claim are behind the conspiracy, how turn of phrases, by the owner of WTC are analysed endlessly, then perhaps we should spend a short while examining the motives of those spreading the conspiracy theories?

Lyndon LaRouche. Millionaire. Founder of the LaRouchian Movement. Virulent Anti Semitic.

During the 1970s and 1980s, the LaRouchites built an international network for spying and propaganda, with links to the upper levels of government, business, and organized crime. The LaRouchites traded information with intelligence agencies in the United States, South Africa, East Germany, and elsewhere. Their dirty tricks record included harassment campaigns against the United Auto Workers and the United Steelworkers of America in the 1970s. In 1980, they branded George Bush an agent of the Trilateral Commission to help Ronald Reagan win the Republican presidential nomination, and in 1984, they helped Jesse Helms retain his U.S. Senate seat by gay-baiting his opponent. During the 1980s, the LaRouchites raised an estimated $200 million through legal and illegal fund-raising and fielded thousands of candidates for political office in every region of the country. Seeking the George Wallace vote, the LaRouche candidates usually ran in Democratic primaries.[2]

In the 1970s, the LaRouchites’ anti-Jewish propaganda was relatively explicit, as in LaRouche’s 1978 article "New Pamphlet to Document Cult Origins of Zionism," which declared that "The B’Nai B’rith today resurrects the tradition of the Jews who demanded the crucifixion of Jesus Christ , the Jews who pleaded with Nero to launch the ´holocaust´ against the Christians."[5] Gradually the LaRouchites developed increasingly sophisticated ways to invoke antisemitic themes while still maintaining deniability.

The LaRouchites borrowed conspiracist elements from various sources to produce their own Manichean picture of world history. For thousands of years, they argued, the good "humanists" had been locked in a power struggle with a vast conspiracy of evil "oligarchs." In ancient times, the oligarchic conspiracy was centered in Babylon; later it shifted to Venice; in modern times it was centered in Britain’s royal House of Windsor. This narrative evoked standard elements of antisemitic doctrine: that Jews had dominated ancient Babylon and that Jewish banking families controlled the British government. Sometimes the LaRouchites highlighted prominent Jews as members of the conspiracy, such as "[Henry] Kissinger ’s friends, the Rothschild family, and other representatives of Britain’s financial power." At other times, they portrayed Jews as unwitting tools of the oligarchs, as for example, "Zionism is that state of collective psychosis through which London manipulates most of international Jewry."[6]

Both quotes from here
http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/synthesis.html

Here's an interesting book about LaRouche;

Lyndon Larouche and the new american fascism"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038...lance&n=283155

The LaRouchian Movement is often described as a cult
http://www.rickross.com/groups/larouche.html


And from the Observer.

In the days before his death, the gifted student from Golders Green, north-west London, had become involved with the Wiesbaden-based followers of Lyndon LaRouche, an American millionaire with virulent anti-Semitic views. An internal Scotland Yard report describes the German group as possessing 'sinister [and] dangerous connections'.

Unaware of the group's anti-Semitic leanings, the former pupil of Christ's Hospital school told followers that he was Jewish. At 4.20am on 27 March 2003 Duggan rang his mother and told her he was 'under too much pressure'. Minutes later he rang back, his voice hushed and nervous. 'Mum, I am in deep trouble,' he said.

Asked where he was, Duggan began spelling out Wiesbaden. Before he could reach 'b' the phone went dead. Three hours later police were called to investigate reports of a body on the B455 outside Wiesbaden. The authorities quickly pronounced Duggan's death as a 'clear case' of suicide. It is a verdict which Canning believes must now be questioned.

Concerns also surround claims by German investigators that a deep dent on the front right hand door of the Peugeot marked the spot where Duggan struck the vehicle. Canning believes such an indentation is unlikely to have been made by a human.

He said: 'In my opinion, this dent is more likely to have been caused by contact from a heavy instrument, or even another vehicle. I do not believe that the damage to either vehicle was caused by the impact of Jerry's body.' Inexplicably, both cars were moved before Berg photographed the scene.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...874252,00.html

Fun guy and a fun bunch of people.

Now I hear conspiraloons getting all indignant. "What’s this guy and these guys got to do with teh conspiracy?". Webster Tarpley, is the answer. Tarpley, for the uninformed, is a senior member of the the 9/11 truth movement and has written several books on the subject. Tarpley, also is/was an active leading member of Larouche's organisation / cult for at least 20 years, including standing (and being debarred) for Larouche in democratic party primaries, being leader of Larouche's "Schiller Institute" and hosting his radio show for 5 years.

Onto David Shayler, David leader of the UK 9/11 truth movement,
http://www.newstatesman.com/200609110028

Originally Posted by David Shayler
"There is a Zionist conspiracy; that's a fact. And they were behind 9/11."

Now David offers no evidence for this "fact", (nor does he offer any evidence for holographic planes), but it's clear at least several senior members of the 9/11 truth movement has an ulterior motive and agenda. And keep this is mind, this from earlier;

Gradually the LaRouchites developed increasingly sophisticated ways to invoke antisemitic themes while still maintaining deniability.

Remember those early rumours about how "No Jews" came to work in the twin towers on 9/11? The arguments about the theories have been revised and polished, and improved upon since that simple lie.

Hitler blamed the Jews for the burning of the Reichstag, and a late 19th conspiracy theory fueled his anti Semitism, "the protocols of the Elders of Zion" is considered the blueprint of modern conspiracy theories.

Now I'm certainly not claiming that anyone posting conspiracy theories on this thread is anti Semitic. However I suggest that before you watch or read any of these theories that you examine the underlying ideology, and politics of the person telling you the theory. Do they have an ulterior motive? A deeper political philosophy that they are, underhandedly, trying to sell? Because once their motives are suspect, you must then question their portrayal of the "facts".

A Final thought. Something else I read at the weekend;

"A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes nothing he reads in the paper, and everything he reads* on the internet".


*Or watches cause of their annoying habit of linking to videos on bloody youtube.

 

[editor]

Editor, pk et all, I give you, the JRECers They've got a several hundred page thread on "Loose Change" alone. Every detail every claim every theory picked apart and exposing the flaws and pseudo science at the heart of the conspiracy theories. One of them, Gravy, spends his saturdays at Ground Zero, arguing with the "troothers" the 911 conspiracy theorists who gather there to spread their nonsense.

Cheers for that.

I'm fed up having to direct research-lite 'troothers' to sites that counter the bonkers claims they've "found on the internet", so I'm thinking of compiling a 'debunkers directory', listing websites that offer intelligent, scientific analysis based on properly sourced and researched articles.

These are the ones I've got so far. Any others?


Loose Change
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

Refuting the 9/11 Myths
http://tommcshane.bravehost.com/refute.htm

Good science and demolition myths
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm

9/11 Conspiracy fact and fiction
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_1253.shtml

Practical mechanics Debunking 9/11 myths
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

9/11 Myths
http://www.911myths.com/index.html

WTC7
http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2006/09/wtc-7-was-severely-damaged-on-south.html


Forums:
Screw Loose Change
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?act=idx

Bad Astronomy
http://www.bautforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19

James Randi Educational Foundation
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

 

[editor]

Remember those early rumours about how "No Jews" came to work in the twin towers on 9/11? The arguments about the theories have been revised and polished, and improved upon since that simple lie.

Indeed:

It is estimated that between 400 and 500 Jews died in the attacks on
the World Trade Center on 9/11. The exact number is not known, since
official record-keeping does not list the religions of the victims.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=331277

What kind of vicious cunt starts up a rumour like that anyway?

 

[8den]

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/

 

[8den]

Indeed:What kind of vicious cunt starts up a rumour like that anyway?

A holocaust denial type of vicious cunt.

 

[editor]

Cheers 8den - I'll add any new ones to the listing above.

 

[pk]

I wonder if Jazzz (who has Jewish ancestry) would like to comment on the fact that he's been played for a muppet by Lyndon Larouche?

 

[DJ Bigga]

Who though? cos you haven't pointed anything or anyone out, you're just doing that Urban75 is a group conciousness stuff rather than actually taking on any 'hypocritical' poster (I assume you meant that and not something to with the medical profession).

So you think I should be naming and shaming otherwise I don't have a point?

As for the group conciousness stuff. If anyone is ready to deny that when a group of people get together there is an unspoken group mentality then they are talking shit.

 

[Structaural]

Thanks 8den - much needed links there. I wonder if David 'Jesus' Icke has any link to the LaRouchian Movement?

 

[Structaural]

So you think I should be naming and shaming otherwise I don't have a point?

As for the group conciousness stuff. If anyone is ready to deny that when a group of people get together there is an unspoken group mentality then they are talking shit.

Not much you can do about then is there?

 

[editor]

As for the group conciousness stuff. If anyone is ready to deny that when a group of people get together there is an unspoken group mentality then they are talking shit.

I must be talking shit then, because I've consistently only expressed my opinion on the matter, regardless whether 'the group' agree with me, or if there's anyone else posting in the thread.

 

[DJ Bigga]

I must be talking shit then, because I've consistently only expressed my opinion on the matter, regardless whether 'the group' agree with me, or if there's anyone else posting in the thread.

If you want to jump on the grenade, feel free. I made a concious decision not to name names.

i don't understand why people want to deny this. It's a part of human nature ffs

 

[DJ Bigga]

Not much you can do about then is there?

Exactly, that's why I don't want to get into a long 'un about it.

 

[editor]

If you want to jump on the grenade, feel free. I made a concious decision not to name names.

I don't like these vague slurs.

If you've got a beef, come out with it and name names and let the accused defend themselves.

 

[DJ Bigga]

I don't like these vague slurs.

If you've got a beef, come out with it and name names and let the accused defend themselves.

What slurs? All i said earlier was that there is a hypocrisy(sp) of some posters on this board.

As for beef, this isn't even close to what i'd call beef. Anyway I'm not gonna have the same discussion on two different places.

Have a good evening y'all

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Time to put up or shut up...

What slurs? All i said earlier was that there is a hypocrisy(sp) of some posters on this board.

Who?

 

[editor]

There's currently two interesting political threads in the process of being needlessly diverted with this off-topic personal stuff.

In the future, it might aid the flow of debate if posters could, perhaps, raise these kind of issues in the general/feedback forum, no?

 

[DJ Bigga]

Who?

The thing is pal, it's not up to you to shut people up.

 

[DJ Bigga]

There's currently two interesting political threads in the process of being needlessly diverted with this off-topic personal stuff.

In the future, it might aid the flow of debate if posters could, perhaps, raise these kind of issues in the general/feedback forum, no?

Good point, I bow out (as i tried to earlier).