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Noam Chomsky: 9-11: Institutional Analysis vs. Conspiracy Theory

Buddy Bradley said:
Because you're obviously more qualified to assess steel behaviour under stress than actual qualified civil engineers? :confused: :rolleyes:
No, but no-one acting in the interests of the truth movement is able to arrange official samples so they can be sent for independent analysis. In fact, not only is FEMA hanging on to all the steel, they are also refusing to release the thousands of photographs taken from the WTC site.
 
Yeah but come on, J, structural engineers are as capable of speculating as the rest of us. Especially if it means talking about structural engineering and other people having to listen.
 
Jazzz said:
the truth movement
Alumni_laughing_300.jpg

Listen to yourself.

The "Truth movement" my fucking arse.

How can you expect rational debate from an evidence-lite gang describing themselves as a 'truth seekers' when they clearly have precious little interest in the truth. Anything that doesn't fit their prefabricated theory is ignored or discredited (witness Jazzz's earlier dismissal of Pilger's comments).
 
editor said:
How can you expect rational debate from an evidence-lite gang describing themselves as a 'truth seekers' when they clearly have precious little interest in the truth. Anything that doesn't fit their prefabricated theory is ignored or discredited. (witness Jazzz's dismissal of Pilger's comments)
Well that's funny, because when I spoke to John Pilger (in a public arena, so I now realise I may freely reproduce his comment) I asked him "Mr. Pilger, I know you are very careful what you say, but you must have doubts over the official story of 9/11"

He turned around, fixed me with a steely stare, and responded "You have to be very careful. It is very important not to believe something simply because it is convenient to believe. But you are right; I do have my doubts"

But I guess you are muddling your Pilgers with your Chomskies.
 
Jazzz said:
But I guess you are muddling your Pilgers with your Chomskies.
I do apologise, I meant Chomsky. I'd just come back from tea and I wasn't thinking straight.

But be sure to post up any credibly-sourced articles from Pilger where he emphatically states that he has real "doubts" about the official version of 9/11.

Can you do that?

Or are you asking me to believe an incredibly biased 'truthseeker' like you whose sheer desperation to uncover an exciting conspiracy has led to you making a series of incredibly bizarre, fact free, bonkers claims here?
 
Both internet conspiracy theories AND anti-conspiracy theories from the traditional left have been doing a favour to whoever was responsible for 911. Chomsky, like Pilger is someone who has built an impeccable reputation as a severe critic of the imperialism and duplicity of the Western governments particularly UK and US.

And they have to be extra careful because there are many editors out there who will home in on ANYTHING smelling of a suggestion that Bush did it and seek to attack ad hominem and destroy their credibility.

They have it hard enough from the mainstream media as it is. They cannot afford, indeed do not need to, get bogged down in the circular arguments about conspiracy surrounding 911.

There is enough evidence of US/UK duplicity in many other military campaigns. Went to the Barbican's showing of the Pilger film on the carnage in East Timor, where Alan Clark former Tory cunt, blatantly admitted that the fighter jets sold by the UK to Indonesia under the guise of "training aircraft" were nothing of the sort.

When Pilger pointed out to Clark that his documented love of animals should naturally extend to caring about humanity as well, and thus the plight of the East Timorese, Clark just shrugged and said it didn't. "Strange that" he said with a wry smile.

So Pilger and Chomsky have to avoid on a grand scale, with the mainstream media, the same thing that anyone on these boards has to face when discussing this most divisive of issues.

And yes, holograms, lizards etc are part of the misinformation. But was it misinformation that said a passport had been found of one of the hijackers at ground zero? Is it misinformation to quote, in precis on one of my posts (and subsequently cut by a moderator or editor himself) the scholars for 911 truth's well documented holes in the 911 commission's report, including the fact that vital evidence at the crash site was removed contravening the basic legal framework of the FAA?

So Pilger and Chomsky can't afford to be called fruitloops. But, hey, we the people can, and we do, and it's ok, because we KNOW something serious is amiss, because it can be pieced together without need for holograms or lizards or illuminati or secret cabals of dastardly jews. All of those are part of the smokescreen as is the avalanche of "proof" from "experts" and "independent scientists" which literally tries to blind you with "facts" when your eyes, ears and your nose for bullshit tells you something different. No I can't be arsed to read agenda-driven "facts". Apologies for that but I have a life to lead.

And I'll leave it at that. Of course, feel free to post the usual FAQ-busting insults. It's ok if the right people do it, right Ed? ;)
 
I agree with squeegees post in it's entirety.

Whatever "side" he's on, he's right.
 
squeegee said:
But was it misinformation that said a passport had been found of one of the hijackers at ground zero?
Funny you should say that:
Two people have died after a small aircraft crashed into a high-rise apartment building in New York City's affluent Upper East Side.
The plane was owned by New York Yankees baseball pitcher Cory Lidle. US media reports say he was piloting the plane at the time and died in the crash...

Lidle's passport had been found at the scene of the crash, a police official said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6042306.stm
 
Jazzz said:
No, but no-one acting in the interests of the truth movement is able to arrange official samples so they can be sent for independent analysis. .

Nothing to do with the fact that they're all wankers though, no?
 
squeegee said:
Both internet conspiracy theories AND anti-conspiracy theories from the traditional left have been doing a favour to whoever was responsible for 911. Chomsky, like Pilger is someone who has built an impeccable reputation as a severe critic of the imperialism and duplicity of the Western governments particularly UK and US.

And they have to be extra careful because there are many editors out there who will home in on ANYTHING smelling of a suggestion that Bush did it and seek to attack ad hominem and destroy their credibility....

This remind me of a couple posts on those forums I posted up the few conspiracy theorists who dare to show up are reduced to eventually announcing that these people are better at "critical logic and reasoning" while the conspiracy theorists boast they are better at "emotional reasoning" and "creative thinking"

To which the only logical response is to say "Why yes you clearly are better at making shit up"

Claiming that Pliger and Chomsky agree with you, just they can't man, the man is on to them is more "creative thinking." While I'm sure your eyes and ears are much better at rational coherant thought that your brain but we have to conclude after the above your brain ain't more most exercised organ (and hey you started with the ad homiens)


I'm sure you cannot be arsed to be post facts because you cannot find them.

There is however a conspiracy here, for decades the US administration funded anyone, anyone, who was fighting commuism. They funded ittolerate regiemes they funded the parties that allowed Saddam to rise to power, and they funded the Taliban when they fought the soviets. They then ignored Afganistian and focused on Iraq when their puppet didn't respond to their string pulling. They then used 9/11 to justify an illegal war in Iraq, and used Afganistan as a stepping stone.

Thats the conspiracy.
 
editor said:
Lidle's passport had been found at the scene of the crash, a police official said.

Jeez, can't these journalists be a bit more creative :rolleyes: Maybe we need an "expert" scientist to prove to us how a passport can fly out of the debris of aircraft and burning fuel. Or maybe that police officer was working for the ancient bavarian wing of the illuminati judean people's front (splitters!) and thought he'd help them substantiate the 911 passport claim by repeating the claim that passports fall out of burning aircraft intact. :D

Ok, my tin foil hat just slipped for a second there. Night all
 
8den said:
This remind me of a couple posts on those forums I posted up the few conspiracy theorists who dare to show up are reduced to eventually announcing that these people are better at "critical logic and reasoning" while the conspiracy theorists boast they are better at "emotional reasoning" and "creative thinking"

Yes this has been mentioned before. The point is that to arrive at truth you need both critical logic and reasoning AND emotional reasoning/creative thinking. Left side and right side of brain.

"I am the left eye, you're the right, would it not be madness to fight?"
 
pk said:
8den wins, on account of not having to post up naff Faithless lyrics.

You what?! Fucking awesome lyric, pre-911 as well, excellent video too. The line encapsulates everything you need to know about how Peace on Earth can be achieved [runs for cover and sleep] :D

buona notte all
 
squeegee said:
Yes this has been mentioned before. The point is that to arrive at truth you need both critical logic and reasoning AND emotional reasoning/creative thinking. Left side and right side of brain.

"I am the left eye, you're the right, would it not be madness to fight?"

I am the prententious nonsense, you are logic, would it not be madness to fight?

The conspiraloons often present conjecture and speculation as proof as to quote

lionel hutz said:
I have conjecture and speculation those are kinds of proof

The conspiraloons offer dubious speculation and awful evidence for example the case that one hijacker is still alive is based entirely on one inaccurate BBC online page. The entire case is based on conjecture and speculation and hostility of anyone who disagrees with them.

Why wasn't ever aspect of the penatgon covered with HD security cameras? Why did Silverston say "pull it"? Why did the towers fall when the owners planned for the possibility of a slow moving out of fuel 707 accidently colliding with them?

To claim that you need to use your imagination to arise to the truth is fair enough. To Quote Mr Holmes "when you remove the impossible whatever is left no matter how improbable becomes the truth" Well its impossible to have wired the WTC without anyone noticing. Its impossible to fake the dozens of phone calls made from flights and pulled them all off. It's impossible to fly a missile over a eight lane overpass and claim it was a plane. The conspiracyloons haven't proved the offical story impossible. The deiners have proved that the conspiraloons story is.
 
squeegee said:
You what?! Fucking awesome lyric, pre-911 as well, excellent video too. The line encapsulates everything you need to know about how Peace on Earth can be achieved [runs for cover and sleep] :D

buona notte all

Faithless man they're just....so deep...

I'd wait for the glue to wear off.

Only solvent sniffing can make faithless seem profound.
 
8den said:
Faithless man they're just....so deep...

I'd wait for the glue to wear off.

Only solvent sniffing can make faithless seem profound.

:eek: Oh no, like, lots of people like them so they MUST be crap :rolleyes:
We can't have a mass movement because people are, like, so square blah blah i used to like them until they became successful blah blah

And as for your previous statement? Just how logical and rational? Full of generalisations like "the conspiraloons" as if one homogenous body believing the same thing.

And by the way, "if history (and quantum theory) has taught us anything, it is that NOTHING is impossible" :p And you defy your own logic by dealing in absolutes just to try and win a measly argument on a message board.

Yeah you're right you are getting the hang of it. How to accuse others of things you are guilty of yourself.

Welcome to the boards indeed :rolleyes:
 
You know someone's reasoning skills and intellect are particularly duff when they start reciting Faithless lyrics as if they have some sort of insight. It's Maxi the plastic Buddhist, Dido's brother King Rollo and some bird who plays the keyboards like a plodding shitehawk for christsakes.

Whatever next Squeegee? A mention of how 'tearing tights off with my teeth' provides a good analogy to the tenacity of the 'truth seeking' few?
 
It remains a good song, a great line and an even better video. Hi Tarannau. Missed you :)

And if the quoting of the lyric upset the elitists on here, that's fine. But the point was that both logic and intuition is needed when arriving at truth. Left brain/Right brain.

Surely no one here is disputing the fact that the two hemispheres of the brain deal with these two distinct areas of consciousness?

But maybe you do need an explanation

Neuroscience for Kids

Sorry, couldn't resist :D Just loved that title. Laters ;)
 
tarannau said:
You know someone's reasoning skills and intellect are particularly duff when they start reciting Faithless lyrics as if they have some sort of insight. It's Maxi the plastic Buddhist, Dido's brother King Rollo and some bird who plays the keyboards like a plodding shitehawk for christsakes.

Whatever next Squeegee? A mention of how 'tearing tights off with my teeth' provides a good analogy to the tenacity of the 'truth seeking' few?

:D :D
 
squeegee said:
:eek: Oh no, like, lots of people like them so they MUST be crap :rolleyes:
We can't have a mass movement because people are, like, so square blah blah i used to like them until they became successful blah blah

Or alternatively I could just not like their derrivity bland pseudo intellectual brand of pop house.
And as for your previous statement? Just how logical and rational? Full of generalisations like "the conspiraloons" as if one homogenous body believing the same thing.

Thats the problem you/they believe that the "gubiment"/NWO/illuminati" (delete where appropriate) brought down the towers using holographic planes/thermite/C4 and offer little proof for any of it.

And by the way, "if history (and quantum theory) has taught us anything, it is that NOTHING is impossible" :p

If that sentence teachs us anything it's that;

A) you know fuck all about history.

B) and less about Quantum Theory.

And you defy your own logic by dealing in absolutes just to try and win a measly argument on a message board.

Yeah you're right you are getting the hang of it. How to accuse others of things you are guilty of yourself.

Welcome to the boards indeed :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Oh and

Maybe we need an "expert" scientist to prove to us how a passport can fly out of the debris of aircraft and burning fuel.

You couldn't make it up
On the street below the crash, police said Lidle's passport was found. The pitcher, who earned about $3.3 million from the Yankees and lived in California with his wife, Melanie, and 6-year-old son, Christopher, only recently earned his pilot's license and bought the four-seat plane.

http://www.newsday.com/am-plane1012...sns-ap-hockey-headlines&track=mostemailedlink

From yesterdays plane crash.
 
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