New UK fossil fuel extraction projects/proposed projects news

[LDC]

Not a catchy title, but think we need this thread.

Public inquiry for the proposed coal field in Cumbria starts today.

Public inquiry begins into plans for new coalmine in Cumbria

Campaigners say support for building UK’s first deep coalmine in 30 years is diminishing

www.theguardian.com

 

[NoXion]

It's my understanding that the coal from this particular mine was to be used in steelmaking, which unlike burning it for electricity isn't so easily replaced with a substitute. There are national strategic reasons for developing and maintaining our own steelmaking capabilities. So all this fuss about fossil fuels is possibly misplaced, and I can't say that it's a good look for the environmental movement to come out in opposition to a project that could provide hundreds of jobs.

 

[maomao]

I can't say that it's a good look for the environmental movement to come out in opposition to a project that could provide hundreds of jobs.

Yes, the working classes should be grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the drowning and starving of other working class people around the world.

 

[NoXion]

Yes, the working classes should be grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the drowning and starving of other working class people around the world.

Not an expert on steelmaking, so if necessary someone could correct me, but isn't coal coke an essential part of the steelmaking process? So even if we completely transitioned away from fossil fuels, there would still be a need to mine coal if we want to continue making steel.

 

[maomao]

but isn't coal coke an essential part of the steelmaking process?

Well it's technically possible without but no-one does it to scale because currently very expensive (or at least not as 'cheap' as the current filthy method). I'm more interested in questioning the false dichotomy of jobs for workers versus environmentalism though. Workers need land for homes and clean air for their kids to breathe.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't say that it's a good look for the environmental movement to come out in opposition to a project that could provide hundreds of jobs.

Not sure jobs trump fucking the planet any more

 

[NoXion]

Well it's technically possible without but no-one does it to scale because currently very expensive (or at least not as 'cheap' as the current filthy method). I'm more interested in questioning the false dichotomy of jobs for workers versus environmentalism though. Workers need land for homes and clean air for their kids to breathe.

They also need steel. If it can be made closer to home without having to be hauled around so much with polluting ships and trucks, then that sounds like a plus to me.

 

[maomao]

They also need steel.

Well as long as the steel is used solely for the benefit of the class that produces it then.

 

[a_chap]

They also need steel. If it can be made closer to home without having to be hauled around so much with polluting ships and trucks, then that sounds like a plus to me.

Making it in the UK without needing to use coke is even better than that.

Read this: Hydrogen Ironmaking: How It Works

 

[NoXion]

Making it in the UK without needing to use coke is even better than that.

Read this: Hydrogen Ironmaking: How It Works

Seems to be an experimental process. If it works out to be useful on an industrial scale then that would be handy, but there's no guarantee of that.

 

[brogdale]

Not an expert on steelmaking, so if necessary someone could correct me, but isn't coal coke an essential part of the steelmaking process? So even if we completely transitioned away from fossil fuels, there would still be a need to mine coal if we want to continue making steel.

"we"?

The decisions whether or not to manufacture steel in the UK are not made here and certainly not by us.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

At the Science Museum there is a new exhibition on carbon capture, we went on Saturday, was interesting to see how many options are being worked on. Fundamentally though we need to stop unlocking CO2 in the first place, rather than trying to catch it once we have released it. If steel can't be made any other way then the process they use at Drax to capture it in a solution and then separate it and store it could work, I guess?

Regardless of what happens in Cumbria, we're fucked anyway, the Aussies have seen to that: Coal’s future is ‘assured’ says Australia in response to UN

 

[two sheds]

Seems to be an experimental process. If it works out to be useful on an industrial scale then that would be handy, but there's no guarantee of that.

‘Green steel’: Swedish company ships first batch made without using coal

Hybrit sends steel made with hydrogen production process to Volvo, which plans to use it in prototype vehicles and components

www.theguardian.com

commercial production 2026. Shame it can't be made using electricity like aluminium - steel's melting temperature is double that of aluminium.

 

[LDC]

It's my understanding that the coal from this particular mine was to be used in steelmaking, which unlike burning it for electricity isn't so easily replaced with a substitute. There are national strategic reasons for developing and maintaining our own steelmaking capabilities. So all this fuss about fossil fuels is possibly misplaced, and I can't say that it's a good look for the environmental movement to come out in opposition to a project that could provide hundreds of jobs.

Any project that gets questioned is going to be met with the "But jobs..." point, so unless we get to grips with good ways to answer and counter it then we are going to be fucked. But one of starting points to do this is to reject the 'jobs vs. everything' false dichotomy the right wing and pre-development people love.

I also think (I'm not 100% sure about this, but it's what I think atm) the unfortunate reality is that it's been left so late that the transition is now going to be messy and difficult, and some of this might mean we do need to make decisions that negatively impact on some people in the short term. Like with the pandemic though, this could be greatly reduced with state financial (and other) support, and that should be a strong part of our arguments.

 

[NoXion]

‘Green steel’: Swedish company ships first batch made without using coal

Hybrit sends steel made with hydrogen production process to Volvo, which plans to use it in prototype vehicles and components

www.theguardian.com

commercial production 2026. Shame it can't be made using electricity like aluminium - steel's melting temperature is double that of aluminium.

jEt fUeL cAn'T mElT sTeEl bEaMs!

But seriously, why not build a positive campaign for a plant like this instead? Get the jobs without the carbon. Is the process locked up behind some patenting bullshit?

 

[LDC]

jEt fUeL cAn'T mElT sTeEl bEaMs!

But seriously, why not build a positive campaign for a plant like this instead?

Instead of fighting new fossil fuel extraction? Would seem a slightly odd direction to go to me, but if you're up for it great, go for it!

 

[NoXion]

Instead of fighting new fossil fuel extraction? Would seem a slightly odd direction to go to me, but if you're up for it great, go for it!

My point was the campaign doesn't have to be entirely negative. Being able to point out a better alternative would on the face of it seem to strengthen the case.

 

[Teaboy]

Not a catchy title, but think we need this thread.

Public inquiry for the proposed coal field in Cumbria starts today.

Public inquiry begins into plans for new coalmine in Cumbria

Campaigners say support for building UK’s first deep coalmine in 30 years is diminishing

www.theguardian.com

It certainly sends a bad message and I can see why people would be very much against it. Thing is stuff like this strikes me as very small scale and we would perhaps be better off concentrating on the really big problems.

I see the UK has re-fired up a coal power station today because gas has got expensive and the lack of wind recently means our turbines haven't been turning. This just highlights our need to move away from an over-reliance on gas and we need a better mix of renewables. The sort of thing preoccupies me more rather than small scale projects which whilst not great are for very specific reasons.

We do really need a strong and stable access to steel though. It is so important for so many aspects of our lives and we all should have realised by now that relying on China is a fools errand.

 

[lazythursday]

This isn't a 'small scale' project given the amount of carbon it will generate. But even if you put CO2 aside it doesn't makes sense.

With Sweden about to put the first hydrogen powered steel plant into production, clearly steel is going to transition away from coking coal over the next few decades. It has to. So there is going to be a declining market for the product this mine will produce. There is a good chance it will become uneconomic within its lifetime. The only way this mine could make sense is if there is a real possibility of there being a global shortage of coking coal during this transition period. I haven't seen any evidence of that whatsoever. The reality is this will just add to the amount of coal being extracted, it won't cause a mine to close elsewhere. If you understand anything whatsoever about the tight carbon budgets left available to us it makes no sense whatsoever.

And should be noted that the IEA - not a radical body - says that new fossil fuel extraction must end NOW to have any chance of hitting the 1.5 degree target.

 

[maomao]

Steel is of course the most recycled material on earth, 85% of it is recycled at the end of its life. I'm not convinced of the need for fresh steel production in the UK at all. Most (or at least the largest part) of it is used in construction which is currently very reliant on the stuff (partially because buildings made from big steel frames have lower labour costs).

In the absence of a technological answer to the climate problem, at some point humans are going to have to lower production.

 

[StoneRoad]

Not only the extraction, but also what we do with it ...
in particular - electricity generation.


ClCh - or Capture ? par StoneRoad2013, on ipernity

 

[Sasaferrato]

Making it in the UK without needing to use coke is even better than that.

Read this: Hydrogen Ironmaking: How It Works

Green hydrogen, yes, blue hydrogen, no.

There is little point in using hydrogen derived from natural gas (blue hydrogen) , as this has a substantial CO2 overhead.

 

[nogojones]

Not an expert on steelmaking, so if necessary someone could correct me, but isn't coal coke an essential part of the steelmaking process? So even if we completely transitioned away from fossil fuels, there would still be a need to mine coal if we want to continue making steel.

In my place it was all recycled steel, but we only casted the shit stuff for rebar, angles and the like. If we ever rolled quality rod we'd import that from full steel plants and reheat to roll down using a gas furnace. The only coal I ever saw was sometimes leftovers on the odd wagon that came through the warehouse (that I'd pinch for the fire)

 

[teqniq]

This seems to be an appropriate place to put this:

NEW: A rare and vital win for the future of our planet - Good Law Project

We’ve won. Government has today announced its new policy for the future of energy production in the UK following our legal challenge last year. We are pleased to say that the proposed new policy is better for our planet, for our children and for our grandchildren. Coal and oil-fired generation...

goodlawproject.org

 

[lazythursday]

Surprisingly good article on the stupid Cumbria coal mine in the Daily Telegraph today:

 

[two sheds]

First time I've seen carbon capture actually seem to work:

World’s biggest machine capturing carbon from air turned on in Iceland

Operators say the Orca plant can suck 4,000 tonnes of CO2 out of the air every year and inject it deep into the ground to be mineralised

www.theguardian.com

Constructed by Switzerland’s Climeworks and Iceland’s Carbfix, when operating at capacity the plant will draw 4,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide out of the air every year, according to the companies.

According to the US Environmental Protection Agency, that equates to the emissions from about 870 cars. The plant cost between US$10 and 15m to build, Bloombergreported.

Plus this referred to at the end:

UK's biggest carbon capture project is step-change on emissions

Tata-owned Cheshire plant to turn 40,000 tonnes of CO2 a year into useful products

www.theguardian.com

Within two years a chemical plant in Cheshire could keep 40,000 tonnes of carbon from the air every year, or the equivalent of removing 22,000 cars from the UK’s roads.

The plans are backed by the government, which has agreed to give Tata Chemicals Europe a £4.2m grant towards the £16.7m cost of the project.

Not complaining about the funding at all, but it seems a shame that they don't also invest in getting cars off the roads by for example giving people without cars grants or something.

 

[lazythursday]

First time I've seen carbon capture actually seem to work:

World’s biggest machine capturing carbon from air turned on in Iceland

Operators say the Orca plant can suck 4,000 tonnes of CO2 out of the air every year and inject it deep into the ground to be mineralised

www.theguardian.com

Plus this referred to at the end:

UK's biggest carbon capture project is step-change on emissions

Tata-owned Cheshire plant to turn 40,000 tonnes of CO2 a year into useful products

www.theguardian.com

Not complaining about the funding at all, but it seems a shame that they don't also invest in getting cars off the roads by for example giving people without cars grants or something.

It seems such an obvious idea that people (or perhaps households) without cars should get some sort of tax break (perhaps money off council tax) yet I can't find any example of this being campaigned for anywhere.

 

[two sheds]

I'd say that they're trying the opposite which is to price cars off the road but they're not doing that either (and just as well for the poor really).

 

[two sheds]

It seems such an obvious idea that people (or perhaps households) without cars should get some sort of tax break (perhaps money off council tax) yet I can't find any example of this being campaigned for anywhere.

I factored in being able to take taxis from the savings I've made from not having a car over the last 20 years, but not everyone can do that.

 

[Teaboy]

Surprisingly good article on the stupid Cumbria coal mine in the Daily Telegraph today:

I'm not sure we should be taking lessons from Germany given the horrific state of their grid after that dumb ass decision to turn of their nukes and return to filthy coal.