Nanothermite and the World Trade Center

[ViolentPanda]

Ace. As responsible workers we'll make the safest bomb in history.

Safe for the workers, unsafe for the enemies of the workers! The peoples' bomb is a discerning bomb!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Obviously, frogwoman, I had to go for a lie-down because I was feeling hysterical

There there, dear, take deep breaths and think of kittens!

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is the first hurdle for me. Since when did the United States have to go to such unbelievable lengths to justify invading anywhere let alone Iraq? One of the perks of being global undisputed top dog hegemon is you don't need to justify anything to anyone, not least your own population. The idea that the US govt needed to stage a brutal terrorist attack to provide popular support for an invasion of Iraq shows a total lack of historical understanding of how the US has behaved since the end of world war 2. They don't give a fuck about popular opinion, they do what the hell they want regardless of American popular opinion when it comes to foreign affairs especially. Go ask about the Nicaraguans about US popular opinion preventing US govt's from behaving imperialistically.

TBF, whether you (generic "you", not Delroy Booth "you"!) believe that the US needed a justification will depend on your personal politics as much as whether you adhere to CTs. Some people believe public opinion (even manipulated public opinion) to be very important in legitimating such actions, and the thinking that govts have historically operated complex public relations ops along the lines that Bernays originally enunciated tends to be reinforced when researched with hindsight. It's pretty much a mainstay of rightwing non-loyalist thought.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"if there is simply no way you can claim victory yourself, claim it by proxy"

Quoted for posterity and for the fact that it gives a measure to your arrogance and ignorance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And you're not assuming anything?

PKB

"Jazzz in mote and beam shocker!"

Now there's a surprise!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think I recall Jazzz offering some vague explanation on the Jazz vs Architect thread. However I've noticed that this is a general characteristic of conspiracy theories. Either there is no actual counter-narrative explaining what exactly happened or there are multiple narratives held by various groups of conspiracists. I think the JFK conspiracies are a good example of this and they demonstrate another aspect that other posters have alluded to. see here, I know it's wikipedia but it is extensively cited. Scroll down and look through all the different groups implicated: right wing Cuban exiles, the CIA/Secret service etc, Military industrial complex, right wing shadow government, Organized crime, Lyndon Johnson, The soviets, communist Cubans, and (of course) the Jews

Of course, some CTers will have you believe that, for example, Lyndon Johnson and organised crime were synonymous (through Johnson's somewhat tenuous links to Texan organised crime); that JFK and organised crime were synonymous (through Joe Kennedy's less than tenuous links to Prohibition-era organised crime); that the CIA and Cuban exiles worked hand-in-hand (historically-proveable) or that Majestic 12 controlled all of 'em.

You gotta love the way these mythologies get constructed!

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh for god's sake, I've been dealing with a lot of really hand-waving from you, and quite patiently.

You've "dealt with" nothing. What you've done is Jazzz'ed*

*Obfuscated at great and sterile length, speaking lots while saying nothing.

And your idea of such a terrible personal attack is to be called 'silly'! Well, I don't know WHAT you have been expecting here on urban75 but if you think that that is so horrendous I suggest that you check over some other threads and see what I get called, and just wave off.

Context is everything. The context to you being called an apologist for anti-Semites, for example, lies in your defence of...anti-Semites. The context for your calling EG silly had no such context. It was purely insult.

No-one with any capacity for independent thought believes the official theory of 9/11 - that's what it is, a theory.

Does that mean that your agglomeration of scientifically-unsustainable "theories" and projections (see what I did there?) has validity? Of course not.

I said that we needed an investigation into 9/11. You said there had been an investigation into 9/11. I asked you a question, which was asking what you were referring to, the NIST investigation into the collapse of the towers, or the 9/11 Commission?

You have failed to answer so far, I don't understand why, as that is a simple question. And it's only me asking. Now how do think it might be taking on all-comers, as happens in these threads?

A "failed" or incomplete investigation can still provide a wealth of information. What a scientist will do, and what many of the "scientists" who provide ideas that are consonant with your belief system son't do, is look at the information "in the round", as opposed to cherrypicking bits and pieces of data that can be deployed outside of their original context to "prove" the preconceptions of the purveyors of that belief system.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nonsense.

The point you are currently resting on - that a nanothermite, a military high-grade explosive...

It isn't. It's a component of particular explosive devices where the brisance makes it more effective for a particular purpose, i.e. thermobaric devices. It's not widely used (neither are thermobaric devices) because the field of applicable use is narrow in a military context, just as nuclear munitions, for example, are.

would be too dangerous to use or even prepare in large quantities - is really utter speculation on your part and poor one too. Of course, you have no evidence of any property of nanothermite that makes it unusable for a US special military operation with unlimited budget; you are simply hand-waving.

The very properties you attribute to it (lower ignition point, greater brisance) clearly indicate the manufacturing and handling issues.

Note that conventional thermite is not actually explosive at all...

A fact that you had to have explained to you post-your claims of it being an explosive.

....and is really quite hard to ignite.

It's only difficult to ignite with naked flame. That's why most ignition systems are electronic. Obviously, when I say electronic, I don't mean a complex chip-based system. You can use something as simple as a timer module, a battery and a large capacitor.

So why not have the more powerful and more easily lit nanothermite.

Because by it's very nature it would be less stable and of less utility than the weaker and less "easily-lit" thermite.

The point of course is that your scientific reasoning is backwards. You are trying to second-guess what would have been used to blow up the WTC from your preconceived ideas of possibility, instead of looking at the actual evidence. If nanothermite was there, then it is there. It doesn't become 'not there' because you would have used a different explosive.

You have absolutely no room to accuse anyone of poor or absent scientific reasoning except yourself. Your "reasoning is that "nanothermite was there" based on the presence of fine particulate matter of the components of nanothermite. Particulate matter that should be present in any similar destruction of a superlarge building.

Let's note that we have come from 'it's created by rusting steel' to 'it's far too dangerous to prepare'. Arguments that appear diametrically opposed.

Only in your head.

The NIST investigation did nothing to look into the possibility of controlled demolition, which is strange because whoever flew planes into building may also have planted bombs in them. They dismissed it for towers 1 & 2 because the buildings came down from the middle!

NIST refuses to release evidence for independent analysis
NIST refuses to perform tests which other scientists are asking for
The NIST models of the collapses of WTC1 and 2 are NOT peer-reviewed and they refuse to release their data for it

They are also LIARS. Check out the body language...

So now you're a forensic psychologist with the ability to judge the veracity of claims through body language?

 

[ViolentPanda]

From NIST's own Questions and Answers about the NIST WTC Towers Investigation
This is the entire rationale for dismissing controlled demolition. It's worthless. There is no reason to assume that explosions could only occur from the bottom, and that they could not be set off at 56 minutes and 102 minutes because that's when they were programmed to or someone pressed the button then.

Substituting hand-waving for forensic investigation.

You're substituting a selective reading of data for a forensic investigation of all data.

You're a hypocrite.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Please do tell

Fairly simple. A bit of "practical learning" by me and a mate when we were in our teens (along with making gunpowder, thermite and homebrew napalm ) that involved crocodile-clipping a brillo pad across the terminals of a lamp battery via a capacitor/resistor setup (to prevent the brillo pad burning out from excess current), and then chucking an opened 3lb bag of flour at the shed ceiling and slamming the door shut. The brillo pad, glowing like the bar of an electric fire, ignited the powder, and the pressure wave from it blew the door, window and roof off their mountings and the wall panels apart from one another and the frame. Not "high explosive" by any stretch of the imagination, but visually appealing. The smell of singed bread was a bit strong, though.
Hilarious, but a bit labourious having to rebuild the shed.

 

[equationgirl]

There there, dear, take deep breaths and think of kittens!

I did some needlepoint, I feel better now

 

[equationgirl]

Those threads should be summarily deleted with extreme prejudice. He was advising another poster (EG I think) who had been suffering extreme back pain to spend a substantial sum on a grounding mat or some similar nonsense a week or two ago. His post was the usual bollocks complete with links to crud sites and false medical claims.

This is where Jazzz's lunacy becomes dangerously unhelpful.

Yes, it was me. He suggested I pay £200 for a grounding mat to put under my bed because pain is due to not being grounded. He then suggested - in the middle of a very cold spell - that I go and spend 10-15 minutes a day with my feet immersed in soil. I pointed out this wasn't perhaps the most practical solution for someone in Scotland especially as the nearest patch of open ground is used by people to walk their dogs. He then suggested I earth myself by touching radiators several times a day. So I did an experiment and touched a radiator during my next pain wave. Unsurprisingly fuck all happened.

Although that thread did give us the joy that was that plastic stick-thing with magic energy-giving material in it

 

[ViolentPanda]

I did some needlepoint, I feel better now

A needlepoint picture of kittens, perchance?

 

[equationgirl]

A needlepoint picture of kittens, perchance?

Kittens making a PD bomb

 

[ViolentPanda]

Kittens making a PD bomb

 

[8ball]

Safe for the workers, unsafe for the enemies of the workers! The peoples' bomb is a discerning bomb!

Well, in this case it's a completely inert bomb, but it just means more wholesome fun twatting the enemies of the workers with our hammers and sickles.

 

[Yossarian]

Welcome to the truth movement.

Hello, person who thinks everything I believe in is stupid lies built on a foundation of insane quicksand - let's move toward truthiness together!

 

[ExtraRefined]

Yes, it was me. He suggested I pay £200 for a grounding mat to put under my bed because pain is due to not being grounded.

Particularly silly given that you can ground yourself perfectly well with a £10 anti-static wristband. Useful as these are to prevent ESD damage to sensitive ICs, they do nothing to help back pain after a day hand soldering surface-mount boards.

 

[equationgirl]

<snip>
They are also LIARS. Check out the body language...

Love the sneaky edit Jazzz - they're liars because of body language? Sheesh....

 

[free spirit]

LIHOP (Let It Happen On Purpose)

Welcome to the truth movement.

I want nothing to do with any movement that has anything to do with the bullshit you pedal.

As I say, you and your ilk are the useful idiots who've been used to enable the neocons to get away with what they actually did / didn't do, because the fanciful bollocks you pedal has the affect of shutting down / diverting / discrediting by association any serious discussion of the issue.

You have no right to use the phrase 'truth movement' IMO, it's about as accurate a description, as sceptics is for the idiots who're not scientifically literate enough to understand climate change properly.

 

[equationgirl]

I feel a bit bad now. I've been rather enjoying laughing at these threads, but it is really just laughing at the afflicted, which isn't really on.

Jazzz - you are deluded to the extent that your delusion constitutes mental illness. Hopefully not badly ill enough to affect your ability to live a normal life, but ill nevertheless.

Why the ad hominem? Well, it's not so much an attack as it is analogous to for instance a person insisting that they were the reincarnation of Jesus and had godlike powers. One would not try to engage with the arguments as to why they thought this and prove them wrong, one would suggest that perhaps some medical help might be in order (or not - it is possible to live a life living with extensive delusions).

Jazzz - there is no evidence anywhere that you have presented or that is referred to in the various links and websites you've posted up (and I've spent many an entertaining hour reading and listening to them believe me) that the WTC towers' collapses were caused by anything other than the simplest observable explanation - aeroplanes crashed into them.

I completely understand the fun that can be got out of engaging in these threads, but I at least am going to (try to) stay off them - I feel they're a bit off, and for those trying to make the argument, remember you can't argue someone out of believing they're Jesus.

I agree with what you're saying, prunus, and where subjects like 9/11 are concerned, I think you've got a very good point.

But should we be quite so respectful of Jazzz's feeling when he starts on about cures for cancer, or mercury in fillings, or vaccination/immunisation, or other forms of quack medicine that could be dangerous if taken seriously? I wonder where the line needs to be drawn.

My take on this is that if Jazzz is challenged on medical-related threads - on which some very dangerous stuff has been posted - then he has to be challenged on this type of thread as well, otherwise it could perceived that we tacitly agree with what he posts even when it's scientifically wrong. So long as it's rigourous debate that doesn't descend into personal attacks I don't think there's an issue. As this thread shows, he's the one who starts with the comments and the name calling.

 

[Jazzz]

Yes, it was me. He suggested I pay £200 for a grounding mat to put under my bed because pain is due to not being grounded. He then suggested - in the middle of a very cold spell - that I go and spend 10-15 minutes a day with my feet immersed in soil. I pointed out this wasn't perhaps the most practical solution for someone in Scotland especially as the nearest patch of open ground is used by people to walk their dogs. He then suggested I earth myself by touching radiators several times a day. So I did an experiment and touched a radiator during my next pain wave. Unsurprisingly fuck all happened.

Although that thread did give us the joy that was that plastic stick-thing with magic energy-giving material in it

Hang on this is really just not true.

My post was:

hey eq,

You might want to look into earthing (some graphs of someone with back pain pre- and post-earthed here) also pain genie/scenar testimonials) if you have not already - I've found both of these really helpful myself with chronic conditions. good luck

Absolutely nowhere in the post is any kind of suggestion to shell out £200 or indeed a product recommendation at all. The methods I suggested for grounding that didn't cost anything were going barefoot on ground or attaching a wire to an earth socket. I suggested that you try either of those at least once for a decent bit of time. You are being misleading about radiators, all I said was that another poster suggested that you might be able to ground yourself by touching one.

 

[butchersapron]

This is what happen when you get a reputation jazzz.

 

[Buckaroo]

Hang on this is really just not true.

My post was:



Absolutely nowhere in the post is any kind of suggestion to shell out £200 or indeed a product recommendation at all. The methods I suggested for grounding that didn't cost anything were going barefoot on ground or attaching a wire to an earth socket. I suggested that you try either of those at least once for a decent bit of time. You are being misleading about radiators, all I said was that another poster suggested that you might be able to ground yourself by touching one.

I'm on medication but 'You are being misleading about radiators' made me chuckle and the grounding thing, very funny and everything else on this thread even though I agree that the way those buildings went down so smartly looks a bit fishy I will not believe the Jews did it until the BBC tell me they did.

 

[free spirit]

Absolutely nowhere in the post is any kind of suggestion to shell out £200 or indeed a product recommendation at all. The methods I suggested for grounding that didn't cost anything were going barefoot on ground or attaching a wire to an earth socket. I suggested that you try either of those at least once for a decent bit of time. You are being misleading about radiators, all I said was that another poster suggested that you might be able to ground yourself by touching one.

I take it you've no electrical training then Jazzz.

encouraging people to attach a piece of wire to an earth socket, and in the next breath to try touching a radiator.

what if the radiators aren't bonded properly as per 10% of houses we work in, and there's an earth fault in the house, and someone decides to try touching both the earth wire and the rad at once for double earthing impact? earth path across the chest is what.

Also, by sticking a wire in the earth socket you're bypassing the built in protection of all UK 13 amp sockets that stops kids (or anyone else) from being able to stick anything in to the live sockets.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Still, electrocuting yourself would take your mind off your back pain.

 

[equationgirl]

Hang on this is really just not true.

Absolutely nowhere in the post is any kind of suggestion to shell out £200 or indeed a product recommendation at all. The methods I suggested for grounding that didn't cost anything were going barefoot on ground or attaching a wire to an earth socket. I suggested that you try either of those at least once for a decent bit of time. You are being misleading about radiators, all I said was that another poster suggested that you might be able to ground yourself by touching one.

Here is my corresponding post from the thread:

I accepted long ago I will not be cured. That's why I have a chronic pain condition.

I use several alternative pain management therapies and tools, but earthing is not one of them. You recently posted a link to an earthing product which cost £200 - that's how much it will cost to see my pain management consultant because of the excess on my private health care policy. Guess which I think will be more beneficial to me.

Followed by a few posts later with

It's also freezing cold here in Scotland, dark by the time I leave work and finding a patch of non-muddy animal and rubbish free ground could prove challenging to say the least. It's a novel suggestion, Jazzz but I don't think it's a practical one. Also, why not suggest this before recommending a £200 product?

Do you do this earthing thing, Jazzz?

To which you responded

Well, I just threw in a link quickly. I am indeed converted to grounding. I have a grounding sheet for my bed and find it amazing, it cost £98. It's on all the time. I also have a grounded meditation mat, which cost £45. They came from here
if you have wood or concrete floors then you may be earthed on them when barefoot.Leather-soled shoes will also tend to earth you. As a poster on another thread suggested, touching a radiator might also do it

If you weren't recommending an expensive product at the time why didn't you correct me?

 

[Jazzz]

If you weren't recommending an expensive product at the time why didn't you correct me?

Well I hope the record is set straight now.

I have no idea where the £200 came from as someone else said - I came to believe that there must have been some really prominent ad on the link I posted

 

[badseed]

Yes, it was me. He suggested I pay £200 for a grounding mat to put under my bed because pain is due to not being grounded. He then suggested - in the middle of a very cold spell - that I go and spend 10-15 minutes a day with my feet immersed in soil. I pointed out this wasn't perhaps the most practical solution for someone in Scotland especially as the nearest patch of open ground is used by people to walk their dogs. He then suggested I earth myself by touching radiators several times a day. So I did an experiment and touched a radiator during my next pain wave. Unsurprisingly fuck all happened.

Although that thread did give us the joy that was that plastic stick-thing with magic energy-giving material in it

If you have ever bathed you are grounded. Or Earthed as we call it.

You know that wire attached to all of your copper pipes...

 

[equationgirl]

Well I hope the record is set straight now.

I have no idea where the £200 came from as someone else said - I came to believe that there must have been some really prominent ad on the link I posted

Maybe if you actually read what people posted PROPERLY...