Nanothermite and the World Trade Center

[Lemon Eddy]

With normal demolitions, one looks for explosives that literally give the most bang for the buck, this is certainly not the case with nanothermite. If anyone doubts that I suggest they try buying some.

You're now arguing that to prove that something that doesn't exist is a military secret we should try to buy some?

If I pop down to Halfords and try to buy 5 military grade stealth unicorns, what do you reckon the outcome would be?

 

[goldenecitrone]

I'm sorry equationgirl!

I quite like you really. Even if you are bit silly.

Misogynistic prick, too.

 

[existentialist]

Which is precisely a proper investigation needs to be conducted. Not one that assumes what happened and refuses to look into any evidence that may point in a contrary direction.

*chortle*

 

[mrs quoad]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/novel-energetic-materials.htm

The best bit of that conspiraloonery link (ffs, anyone reading the language and looking at the Significant But Arbitrary Capitalisation can tell that it's grade-A batshit ):

 

[Nylock]

I'm sorry equationgirl!

I quite like you really. Even if you are bit silly.

Soooooo.... Getting your arse handed to you in this discussion with equationgirl and you turn into a condescending twit. Nothing new there... What's the next zinger in your limited arsenal -not "calm down dear!" surely?

 

[frogwoman]

we're going to have to shoot equationgirl now. it's the law of the sea.

 

[8ball]

Misogynistic prick, too.

To be fair, Jazzz is an equal-opportunities hypocritical patroniser in my experience.

 

[frogwoman]

yeh, he's always calling people silly, dont necessarily think its a sexist thing.

 

[8ball]

When it comes to WTC7 I don't know why they didn't just project another holographic plane.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

I've highlighted the relevant passage.

No way could enough of this material have been safely made in the first place, therefore it is highly unlikely Jazzz that it was used on 9/11.

that's what they want you to believe

... facts ...

pah

I know, but it's good for the facts to be stated, if only so that others who are lurking can see both sides of the argument.

there are two sides?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The key word is "most research facilities". You'll have a hard time finding somewhere safe enough to study nuclear fission. Certainly in the 1940s. That didn't stop the USA bombing Hiroshima.

A poor analogy, given that atomic/nuclear containment was understood well enough in the '30s and '40s that relatively few people, even those working directly with the material, were affected by it/emissions from it, certainly not by it going supercritical. It's not explosive except in very exceptional artificially-induced circumstances.
The sort of chemical reactions you're talking about with thermite variations and powder explosives are much more easily accidentally-induced, even when preventive measures are taken. Some issues you just can't get around, as every gunpowder and cordite plant in the history of western firearms knows. You're talking about explosives technologies that supposedly surpass the power of cordite by a factor of hundreds if not thousands, but with all the attendant problems, and with the risk magnified by that same improved factor of explosive power. That's why many modern explosives are manufactured (rather than shipped to) and tested in small quantities at military proving grounds, usually in underground vaults designed to contain the blast. If those are the precautions necessary for practical (as opposed to theoretical) study and testing, then that gives some measure of what would be required safety-wise in terms of production facilities.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The ignition point of the red/gray chips found by Harrit is around 430 degrees Centigrade. This is indeed much lower than conventional thermite, but it would seem still really quite stable.

Of course once you have plane collisions and fires it's another matter. Please note that the list of witnesses who witnessed explosions at the WTC before the towers collapsed is as long as your arm.

Explosions are caused by many things other than explosives, especially when fire is involved, and that's excluding the explosive potential of flashover inherent to any large building, however well-designed to be compartmentalised in case of fire.

 

[ViolentPanda]

1) You are incorrect. The Manhattan project cost $2bn, equivalent to around $26bn today. Not '$20bn back in the 1940s'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

2) It was kept secret because the USA was involved in WWII.

3). We are not talking about life insurance, to introduce it is merely diversionary.

4) I reiterate, making a dangerous material in small-scale quantities (e.g. grammes) is entirely different to scaling-up to manufacturing tonnes of dangerous materials. And yes, often it does mean it can't be made in larger enough quantities safely. I've looked at scaling up production of two dangerous bench-scale materials over the past 12 months, have you?

5) Even the military doesn't have infinite resources. Vast, yes - infinite, no.

One of the qualities of "nano-thermite" is the scale of the particles. What jazzz doesn't appear to get is that fine powders, of a majority of substances, are explosive in and of themselves without certain precautions being taken, hence the elaborate powder-trapping and damping arrangements in flour mills throughout history (some of us have embarrassing stories from our youth about blowing up a garden shed with a bag of flour, a battery and a brillo pad ), so not only would you have to have the same sort of production safeguards as any gunpowder or cordite mill, to counteract any flash-explosion of the powderised thermites, you'd also need to scale production (in "clean room" facilities with all the usual asd precautions) so that you were never producing enough to give the potential for more than a certain size of blast. You'd also have to store (unlike with plastics) the powders in containment vessels, and take a great deal of care where the vessels were stored.
Plus, the military prefer "point and shoot" to materials that require skilled handling.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're now arguing that to prove that something that doesn't exist is a military secret we should try to buy some?

If I pop down to Halfords and try to buy 5 military grade stealth unicorns, what do you reckon the outcome would be?

Sectioning.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Sectioning.

Clearly making me a political crusader detained without trial because I was about to alert the world to this terrible conspiracy, etc, etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Clearly making me a political crusader detained without trial because I was about to alert the world to this terrible conspiracy, etc, etc.

If you milk it, you could probably squeeze an entire alternate source of income from speaking engagements and books a la Icke.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

If you milk it, you could probably squeeze an entire alternate source of income from speaking engagements and books a la Icke.

Way ahead of you. I've already come up with some 80's vintage special effects to add retro chic to my shouty, Alex Jones style rant channel. I need a few good catchprases and soundbites though, as well as a signature conspiracy theory so fucking blatantly lacking in any basis in fact that Jazzz would go for it. Unfortunately even after necking two bottles of brasso I can't quite come up with anything stupid enough to pass muster.

 

[shifting gears]

In all honesty it's hard for me to keep up with this thread due to limited Internet access time:

Did jazzz reply to ayatollah's question? The one where he basically asked what his (jazzz) overall theory of the incident was? Cos it struck me as fairly pertinent ( although its possible he's explained in detail before, but as a relatively new poster here I've not seen it)...

What is the overarching theory behind the events of 9/11, jazzz?

The US government coordinated the attacks to further their agenda in the Middle East? That they were prepared to see the death of thousand of their own civilians to further that agenda, when they've proved time and time again that they're capable of propaganda campaigns that vast swathes of their population/electorate will swallow whole?

Genuinely curious to hear you outline your personal belief?

Because, for a while, in a naive phase, I got interested in the idea of a 9/11 conspiracy. I watched all the documentaries, went on all the the truther sites and forums, before finally snapping back to reality and realising that: the idea of a US state/government actually planning, implementing and executing a plan of this nature was so far beyond the realms of possibility that in all honesty, I felt like a cunt for ever entertaining the idea. And that's despite having a healthy, bordering on obsessive distrust on the state/establishment model in general, aligned with a belief that bush and his administration, Blair, etc, are indubitably war criminals according to international law and conventions, and would dearly love to see every last one of them in the dock where they belong.

(Sorry for typos, phone post)

 

[Dandred]

If Jazzz is right, how did the US actually benefit from all this? Their economy is in the shit, they have lost Iraq and Afghanistan to either Russia or China in the near future. They somehow they managed to kill 3,000 people in the US for no gain what so even. Jazzz your logic is retarded.....

If it was a conspiracy, who got the winnings?

 

[8ball]

One of the qualities of "nano-thermite" is the scale of the particles.

This stuff was in comparatively large flakes.
Comparatively large flakes with some of the same kinds of metal oxides you find in thermite.

Thermite and the anti-rust paint they put on building girders...

 

[frogwoman]

This stuff was in comparatively large flakes.
Comparatively large flakes with some of the same kinds of metal oxides you find in thermite.

Thermite and the anti-rust paint they put on building girders...

Now we know what we'll make the worker's bomb out of comrades

 

[8ball]

Now we know what we'll make the worker's bomb out of comrades

Ace. As responsible workers we'll make the safest bomb in history.

 

[equationgirl]

She's proved herself to be way smarter than you.

Thanks

 

[equationgirl]

Obviously, frogwoman, I had to go for a lie-down because I was feeling hysterical

 

[Delroy Booth]

In all honesty it's hard for me to keep up with this thread due to limited Internet access time:

Did jazzz reply to ayatollah's question? The one where he basically asked what his (jazzz) overall theory of the incident was? Cos it struck me as fairly pertinent ( although its possible he's explained in detail before, but as a relatively new poster here I've not seen it)...

What is the overarching theory behind the events of 9/11, jazzz?

The US government coordinated the attacks to further their agenda in the Middle East? That they were prepared to see the death of thousand of their own civilians to further that agenda, when they've proved time and time again that they're capable of propaganda campaigns that vast swathes of their population/electorate will swallow whole?

Genuinely curious to hear you outline your personal belief?

Because, for a while, in a naive phase, I got interested in the idea of a 9/11 conspiracy. I watched all the documentaries, went on all the the truther sites and forums, before finally snapping back to reality and realising that: the idea of a US state/government actually planning, implementing and executing a plan of this nature was so far beyond the realms of possibility that in all honesty, I felt like a cunt for ever entertaining the idea. And that's despite having a healthy, bordering on obsessive distrust on the state/establishment model in general, aligned with a belief that bush and his administration, Blair, etc, are indubitably war criminals according to international law and conventions, and would dearly love to see every last one of them in the dock where they belong.

(Sorry for typos, phone post)

This is the first hurdle for me. Since when did the United States have to go to such unbelievable lengths to justify invading anywhere let alone Iraq? One of the perks of being global undisputed top dog hegemon is you don't need to justify anything to anyone, not least your own population. The idea that the US govt needed to stage a brutal terrorist attack to provide popular support for an invasion of Iraq shows a total lack of historical understanding of how the US has behaved since the end of world war 2. They don't give a fuck about popular opinion, they do what the hell they want regardless of American popular opinion when it comes to foreign affairs especially. Go ask about the Nicaraguans about US popular opinion preventing US govt's from behaving imperialistically.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is the first hurdle for me. Since when did the United States have to go to such unbelievable lengths to justify invading anywhere let alone Iraq? One of the perks of being global undisputed top dog hegemon is you don't need to justify anything to anyone, not least your own population. The idea that the US govt needed to stage a brutal terrorist attack to provide popular support for an invasion of Iraq shows a total lack of historical understanding of how the US has behaved since the end of world war 2. They don't give a fuck about popular opinion, they do what the hell they want regardless of American popular opinion when it comes to foreign affairs especially. Go ask about the Nicaraguans about US popular opinion preventing US govt's from behaving imperialistically.

it's cruel to shine the light of reality into the cave of jazzz's loonery

 

[ayatollah]

In all honesty it's hard for me to keep up with this thread due to limited Internet access time:

Did jazzz reply to ayatollah's question? The one where he basically asked what his (jazzz) overall theory of the incident was? Cos it struck me as fairly pertinent ( although its possible he's explained in detail before, but as a relatively new poster here I've not seen it)...

What is the overarching theory behind the events of 9/11, jazzz?

The US government coordinated the attacks to further their agenda in the Middle East? That they were prepared to see the death of thousand of their own civilians to further that agenda, when they've proved time and time again that they're capable of propaganda campaigns that vast swathes of their population/electorate will swallow whole?

Genuinely curious to hear you outline your personal belief?

Because, for a while, in a naive phase, I got interested in the idea of a 9/11 conspiracy. I watched all the documentaries, went on all the the truther sites and forums, before finally snapping back to reality and realising that: the idea of a US state/government actually planning, implementing and executing a plan of this nature was so far beyond the realms of possibility that in all honesty, I felt like a cunt for ever entertaining the idea. And that's despite having a healthy, bordering on obsessive distrust on the state/establishment model in general, aligned with a belief that bush and his administration, Blair, etc, are indubitably war criminals according to international law and conventions, and would dearly love to see every last one of them in the dock where they belong.

(Sorry for typos, phone post)

Since posing the question... twice...I've been waiting, and I can tell you.. waiting with bated breath, for the "big reveal". But NO, Jazzz has not been prepared to answer the simple, very basic, question, ie, "If for the sake of argument let's assume the blowing up of the Twin Towers with wonder explosive "nanothermite" planted internally throughout the building actually happened, what is your overall big picture theory of the entire 9/11 incident ?" Jazzz will quibble endlessly over chemistry and fine points of detail, but no, not offer or reveal to us what his "big theory" is, That being the case I'm afraid that by that solid old rule of Occams Razor, ie," assume the most obvious answer is the correct one on the balance of probability" I have to assume that despite his protestations of innocence that Mr Jazz is actually a follower of all that is craziest in the 9/11 conspiracy religion - and that it does have a big central role for "international Jewry", "hidden world governments", the whole palaver . Unfair ? Possibly. Prove me wrong Jazzz, with an outline of your "big picture" theory. "Who planned and actually funded and micro managed the atrocity ? What was its overall purpose in geopolitical terms ?

 

[Giles]

In all honesty it's hard for me to keep up with this thread due to limited Internet access time:

Did jazzz reply to ayatollah's question? The one where he basically asked what his (jazzz) overall theory of the incident was? Cos it struck me as fairly pertinent ( although its possible he's explained in detail before, but as a relatively new poster here I've not seen it)...

What is the overarching theory behind the events of 9/11, jazzz?

The US government coordinated the attacks to further their agenda in the Middle East? That they were prepared to see the death of thousand of their own civilians to further that agenda, when they've proved time and time again that they're capable of propaganda campaigns that vast swathes of their population/electorate will swallow whole?

Genuinely curious to hear you outline your personal belief?

Because, for a while, in a naive phase, I got interested in the idea of a 9/11 conspiracy. I watched all the documentaries, went on all the the truther sites and forums, before finally snapping back to reality and realising that: the idea of a US state/government actually planning, implementing and executing a plan of this nature was so far beyond the realms of possibility that in all honesty, I felt like a cunt for ever entertaining the idea. And that's despite having a healthy, bordering on obsessive distrust on the state/establishment model in general, aligned with a belief that bush and his administration, Blair, etc, are indubitably war criminals according to international law and conventions, and would dearly love to see every last one of them in the dock where they belong.

(Sorry for typos, phone post)

Good post.

The thing that gets to me about all the 9/11 conspiracy theories is the belief that "they" could plan, execute and keep secret this massive and (unnecessarily) complex plot as part of some evil master-plan to achieve global domination. And yet manage to demonstrate incompetence, lack of foresight, and general stupidity in all of the invasions and conflicts that followed 9/11. The US has spent billions and billions and all they've made is a mess! Did the evil and overwhelmingly competent mastermind behind the 9/11 conspiracy retire and hand over to a bunch of fuckwits?

Giles..

 

[Delroy Booth]

Good post.

The thing that gets to me about all the 9/11 conspiracy theories is the belief that "they" could plan, execute and keep secret this massive and (unnecessarily) complex plot as part of some evil master-plan to achieve global domination. And yet manage to demonstrate incompetence, lack of foresight, and general stupidity in all of the invasions and conflicts that followed 9/11. The US has spent billions and billions and all they've made is a mess! Did the evil and overwhelmingly competent mastermind behind the 9/11 conspiracy retire and hand over to a bunch of fuckwits?

Giles..

And on top of this, despite being able to plan the most fiendish secret inside job terrorist attack in human history and execute it to perfection, these same criminal masterminds seem totally unable to put a stop to Jazzz, rethinking 9/11, loose change and the rest of the online 9/11 troof cesspit they swim in. Funny that.

The fact that Jazzz is still alive is proof in itself that what he's peddling is utter and total bullshit. If he was right he, and anyone else pushing this mantra, would be disappeared.

 

[Jazzz]

If Jazzz is right, how did the US actually benefit from all this? Their economy is in the shit, they have lost Iraq and Afghanistan to either Russia or China in the near future. They somehow they managed to kill 3,000 people in the US for no gain what so even. Jazzz your logic is retarded.....

If it was a conspiracy, who got the winnings?

You are assuming that the elite actually care about their fellow citizens. That's not the game. They care about their muscle and their own wealth. They don't give a flying fuck about Joe Bloggs. Really. I don't know what you mean about 'losing Iraq and Afghanistan'. They didn't have them before. Now they have them, they control the opium trade (very pertinent with Afghanistan), and are poised to control the oil.

US military spending went up massively after 9/11. How fortunate that a new bogeyman appeared just as the previous one vanished. You know otherwise we might have just questioned whether all those trillions were necessary? We might have questioned were the missing $2 trillion in the Pentagon accounts went? Oh but how that was forgotten. Except by Cynthia McKinney of course.

From the neocon's own document, describing how America should maintain its position as top dog via military might:
REBUILDING AMERICA’S DEFENSES
Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century
A Report of The Project for the New American Century September 2000

"Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor."

chapter V, "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force"
September 2000