Manchester Arena incident - many reported dead

[J Ed]

The way people sling around the word liberal. You lot have your views. No decent person would endorse the way linking terrorism to islam has on people on that faith. But do as you please.

What is Islam exactly? Is it just one religion which everyone agrees upon or are there lots of different interpretations? Is there one interpretation that is right and all the others are wrong? Are you, as a non-Muslim, in a position to make that particular theological and political judgement?

 

[mikey mikey]

J Ed. Would you say that a salafist and a sufi were alike?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

A fair proportion (the majority?) of victims of suicide bombing attacks are Muslims. Which tends to suggest, to me, that the main motivator for the attacks are therefore political rather than religious. Even if religion is the primary motivator, you can't get away from the fact that it's a political stance being fought for.

 

[mojo pixy]

Religion provides a pretext (as for so many horrible human activities), the actual motivation is yes social/political.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Punish women for not dressing correctly. Punish people for listening to music. You can argue that you're defending some archaic text but you're still fighting for ultra-conservatism.

 

[mojo pixy]

Forever, people have raped and maimed and killed and claimed that what they were doing was OK because it was justified by their Book of Choice. Half of the Old Testament is made up of stories like this, not to mention the countless empires, kingdoms and realms throughout history who've spread themselves mainly or in part through religious custom. Islam itself spread from a small part of northern Arabia to cover all lands from the Atlas to the Himalayas, in not much over 100 years, and this did not happen through smiles and hugs and laughter. But it was all OK because it was what The Lord wanted, and it said so in The Verses.

Beyond the psychopathy, IS specifically want a caliphate, they're looking at the huge explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries and they think they can do the same. They think this will make the world perfect, and they think it's what will please The Lord. This movement can't be negotiated with, and I think that's the hardest thing for us (in the Western World™) to deal with, so accustomed are we to negotiation, compromise and relativism.

Blah. I think I just wanted to chime in.

 

[B.I.G]

A fair proportion (the majority?) of victims of suicide bombing attacks are Muslims. Which tends to suggest, to me, that the main motivator for the attacks are therefore political rather than religious. Even if religion is the primary motivator, you can't get away from the fact that it's a political stance being fought for.

A strange unity over this post

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Forever, people have raped and maimed and killed and claimed that what they were doing was OK because it was justified by their Book of Choice. Half of the Old Testament is made up of stories like this, not to mention the countless empires, kingdoms and realms throughout history who've spread themselves mainly or in part through religious custom. Islam itself spread from a small part of northern Arabia to cover all lands from the Atlas to the Himalayas, in not much over 100 years, and this did not happen through smiles and hugs and laughter. But it was all OK because it was what The Lord wanted, and it said so in The Verses.

Beyond the psychopathy, IS specifically want a caliphate, they're looking at the huge explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries and they think they can do the same. They think this will make the world perfect, and they think it's what will please The Lord. This movement can't be negotiated with, and I think that's the hardest thing for us (in the Western World™) to deal with, so accustomed are we to negotiation, compromise and relativism.

Blah. I think I just wanted to chime in.

And then we got secular and atheist states and discovered they liked murdering people for political reasons also.
The only thing unique here is the suicide element. I doubt I'd be grateful knowing my killer hadn't killed themself whilst murdering me. I'm still dead.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sure, if your political views are virtuous enough you can get away with using them as a pretext for some fairly ugly stuff. No gods required there. Thanks Rousseau.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The bottom line is that if you want to oppose the people doing this, then you have to do It based on their politics.
Saying they do it because of Islam is no use, not least because most Muslims don't do this sort of thing let alone support it and it places the left in that weird double bind where being quiet means they're effectively supporting this shit or attacking it makes them islamophobic or racist.

Forget their religion. They're fascist cunts. Oppose them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Isn't it funny that the Rothschilds are Jewish?

 

[J Ed]

J Ed. Would you say that a salafist and a sufi were alike?

I would say that they are both Blairites and probably voted for Liz Kendall, the scum!

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

J Ed. Would you say that a salafist and a sufi were alike?

Best post so far. Sums up the issue in one question.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The bottom line is that if you want to oppose the people doing this, then you have to do It based on their politics.
Saying they do it because of Islam is no use, not least because most Muslims don't do this sort of thing let alone support it and it places the left in that weird double bind where being quiet means they're effectively supporting this shit or attacking it makes them islamophobic or racist.

Forget their religion. They're fascist cunts. Oppose them.

And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?

 

[Cid]

Best post so far. Sums up the issue in one question.

Playing it deadpan this evening?

 

[Raheem]

And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?

Insofar as that's possible, I think you can only do it by taking the politics as a starting point. You can decorate your nationalism, your monarchism, your green politics or whatever with religion, but I doubt it is going to ever be practically possible to do it the other way around.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Playing it deadpan this evening?

Nope. I actually meant it. Although I have had a pint or two.

 

[xenon]

And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?

OTOH arguing over interpretations of religious texts with the aim of preventing terrorism is next to useless. I spose it might have some limited function in synthasising, defendin moderate versions as practised by most adhearants. But that's for the scollars to deal with. Not an endevour for the rest of us.

 

[The39thStep]

OTOH arguing over interpretations of religious texts with the aim of preventing terrorism is next to useless. I spose it might have some limited function in synthasising, defendin moderate versions as practised by most adhearants. But that's for the scollars to deal with. Not an endevour for the rest of us.

Exactly .Its about values, principles and therefore ideology.In fact its about the sort of society that we fight for, cherish and what we stand for.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?

Then the operative word is political, no?

 

[redsquirrel]

How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?

But don't worry. Jump to your racism.

You know. Cos your a cunt.

Not got anything other to say that that you're a grade A prick.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nope. I actually meant it. Although I have had a pint or two.

Or three?

 

[redsquirrel]

Then the operative word is political, no?

But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?

 

[Pickman's model]

But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Or three?

Three too many. Bedtime for me.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?

But don't worry. Jump to your racism.

You know. Cos your a cunt.

1. All of them
2. All of them
3. All of them

It's not racism mate.

What are you? Some kind of terrorist apologist? You sick fuck.

 

[butchersapron]

Circle complete

 

[butchersapron]

A honking fake cockney hardman vs a genuinely dangerously stupid liberal.

 

[mojo pixy]

But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?

The practical upshots of religious belief and custom may well be 100% political, but IME not many religious types consider their religion to actually be political. If anything people seem to like to keep politics and religion separate - though for me this shows they understand neither religion nor politics, and It was one of the main driving forces for me away from religion(s) when I grasped it as a young person thinking about things.

 

[mikey mikey]

That would imply that the decision not to believe in a God is also a political decision.