Manchester Arena incident - many reported dead

[danny la rouge]

What has social disengagement got to do with religion. The answer is nothing.

Your logic is faulty. Social disengagement is a wider phenomenon than jihadism, but it is not unconnected that jihadis are Muslim. Think it through.

It's true that the vast majority of Muslims are not jihadis. But you can't just go ignoring the fact that jihadis are Muslim.

I saw someone arguing on social media this morning that Japan and Bolivia don't have jihadis because they don't get involved in intervening in the Middle East. What this person missed was that they also don't have significant Muslim populations.

It must you very sad that I agree with you.

You don't. You've misunderstood me.

Now, it must also be said that social disengagement doesn't always lead to jihadism, even in Muslim populations. But it can't be ignored that it does do so.

It must also be pointed out that among the socially disengaged in the non Muslim (for want of a better term) population, far right racism takes root, including violent manifestations.

It's useful to think, as Maryam Namazi asks us to, of an Muslim "far right" and a non Muslim far right.

She doesn't think, though, that religion is irrelevant.

You can read a recent speech by her here:

Islam and Islamism as the greatest stumbling blocks for women’s emancipation

"As you know, In one Hadith Mohammed, Islam’s prophet says: ‘I have left behind no fitnah more harmful to men, than women'(Al-Bukhari, Muslim)."

"On the one hand, Islamic law and states are the beginning of the end of women’s rights, freethought and democratic politics."

[...]

"... because of identity politics and cultural relativism, which no longer acknowledges citizens and human beings but homogenised religious identities that unsurprisingly coincide with the impositions of Islamists and the ruling class.

This is why everything from gender segregation to the veil and Sharia are sanitised and legitimised at the expense of women’s rights.

And criticism deemed ‘Islamophobic’ – a political term used to scaremonger people into silence."

 

[danny la rouge]

Also its incredible that I got called a liberal AGAIN!

Why? I used it in the sense that has been explained over and over and over on these boards.

 

[The39thStep]

How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi took his twisted revenge out of 'love for Islam' after being radicalised by Isil preacher

Have a read of this....

And to answer your point... often close siblings know more than parents, but who knows really what ws going on in his mind.

How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi took his twisted revenge out of 'love for Islam' after being radicalised by Isil preacher

Have a read of this....

And to answer your point... often close siblings know more than parents, but who knows really what ws going on in his mind.

Thanks. Yes thats often true obviously. His brother in England knew about his intentions, he rang his mother before the bomb exploded. His sister moved to Tripoli around 2008 .

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm surprised some people on this thread haven't been banned for islamaphobia.

Name names, or it's just passive agression.

 

[Pickman's model]

Name names, or it's just passive agression.

It's just passive aggression

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

ItWillNeverWork I was halfway through writing you an essay but much better you just read the link danny la rouge put up there.

 

[bimble]

Was attempt to answer your 3 questions, the ones that you think make these primarily religious acts.

 

[emanymton]

I think they both go together

Sure, but the second number will be very small. I don't think the 99.6 percent figure tells us much in and of itself.

 

[B.I.G]

Your logic is faulty. Social disengagement is a wider phenomenon than jihadism, but it is not unconnected that jihadis are Muslim. Think it through.

It's true that the vast majority of Muslims are not jihadis. But you can't just go ignoring the fact that jihadis are Muslim.

I saw someone arguing on social media this morning that Japan and Bolivia don't have jihadis because they don't get involved in intervening in the Middle East. What this person missed was that they also don't have significant Muslim populations.

You don't. You've misunderstood me.

Now, it must also be said that social disengagement doesn't always lead to jihadism, even in Muslim populations. But it can't be ignored that it does do so.

It must also be pointed out that among the socially disengaged in the non Muslim (for want of a better term) population, far right racism takes root, including violent manifestations.

It's useful to think, as Maryam Namazi asks us to, of an Muslim "far right" and a non Muslim far right.

She doesn't think, though, that religion is irrelevant.

You can read a recent speech by her here:

Islam and Islamism as the greatest stumbling blocks for women’s emancipation

"As you know, In one Hadith Mohammed, Islam’s prophet says: ‘I have left behind no fitnah more harmful to men, than women'(Al-Bukhari, Muslim)."

"On the one hand, Islamic law and states are the beginning of the end of women’s rights, freethought and democratic politics."

[...]

"... because of identity politics and cultural relativism, which no longer acknowledges citizens and human beings but homogenised religious identities that unsurprisingly coincide with the impositions of Islamists and the ruling class.

This is why everything from gender segregation to the veil and Sharia are sanitised and legitimised at the expense of women’s rights.

And criticism deemed ‘Islamophobic’ – a political term used to scaremonger people into silence."

If the UK was still a christian country we could spend all our time blaming christianity for the actions of the far right and that would make just as much sense.

 

[maomao]

Sure, but the second number will be very small. I don't think the 99.6 percent figure tells us much in and of itself.

In fact 0% of Muslims alive today have been successful suicide bombers. I can tell you that without checking.

 

[danny la rouge]

If the UK was still a christian country we could spend all our time blaming christianity for the actions of the far right and that would make just as much sense.

If something which wasn't the case was the case we could...blah blah blah.

I fell asleep did I miss anything?

 

[Pickman's model]

If the UK was still a christian country we could spend all our time blaming christianity for the actions of the far right and that would make just as much sense.

Bollocks. A lot of the far right are either atheist/agnostic or pagan. You going to blame odinists on xianity? There's long been a connection between elements of the right and occultism, e.g. evola and Italian fascism, himmler and the nsdap, etc

 

[emanymton]

In fact 0% of Muslims alive today have been successful suicide bombers. I can tell you that without checking.

I was waiting for that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was waiting for that.

It's your captain mainwaring moment

 

[not-bono-ever]

Exclusive: Manchester suicide bomber used student loan and benefits to fund terror plot

bomber was coining it in AT TAXPAYERS EXPENSE etc.

lots of dot joining in that there article

 

[danny la rouge]

I urge people to read this if they haven't already: Islam and Islamism as the greatest stumbling blocks for women’s emancipation

And though the horse has well and truly buggered off, I'm going to make another plea for giving that stable door the once over.

Islamophobia. It means fear or hatred of Islam. Islam is a philosophy, a religion, a set of views and ideas. It is perfectly possible to dislike Islam or aspects of Islam without hating Muslims. Dispute and disagreement are part and parcel of having ideas. Indeed, they are part and parcel of a healthy society.

The trouble with the term Islamophobia is that its net is too wide. It is too easy for people to say that disagreeing with some aspect of Islam is akin to racism; too easy for them to say “you mustn’t say that: it’s Islamophobic”.

Questioning and challenging beliefs is not the same as hating the people who hold them. I don't think there's anything wrong with hating or being afraid of a philosophy, a set of ideas. As an atheist, there is much I dislike about Islam. Just as there is much I dislike about Judaism.

But anti-Semitism is the term used for racism towards Jews; we don’t call it Judaismophobia. Having disputes and disagreements with Judaism is not in itself necessarily racist.

If we need a term analogous to anti-Semitism to refer to racism towards Muslims (and I’d argue that we do), then a better term would be Muslimophobia.

If religious lobbies are permitted to suggest that criticising religion, criticising ideas, is akin to racism because of flabby terms like Islamophobia, then we’re storing up future problems for all of society.

 

[teqniq]

Apologies if already posted, saw this a couple of days ago but someone's just tweeted it again. Can't say I'm massively surprised

 

[PursuedByBears]

Really interesting link danny la rouge, thanks.

 

[Doubledown]

This film is a perfect simile of radical Islam and liberal political correctness. Balanced beings being split by ancient magic into being overly do-gooding and overly evil. Both forms equally as bad.

 

[Raheem]

Exclusive: Manchester suicide bomber used student loan and benefits to fund terror plot

bomber was coining it in AT TAXPAYERS EXPENSE etc.

lots of dot joining in that there article

There's no reason terrorist cells can't be working towards a commercially sustainable model. Yet another example of welfarism stifling entrepreneurship.

 

[bimble]

Such a good point danny la rouge.

This is an interesting piece of writing, examining some of the major problems with the word Islamophobia, as opposed to just saying Anti-Muslim Racism for instance.

Amongst the problems he lists is that 'The term is inappropriate for describing opinions that are basically anti-religion as distinct from anti-Islam."
But here we are and 'Despite its disadvantages, the term Islamophobia looks as if it is here to stay – it cannot now be discarded from the lexicon. Not least, this is because it has acquired legitimacy and emotional power amongst people who are at the receiving end of anti-Muslim hostility and prejudice, and acts therefore as an activist concept.."

So the job I suppose is to work at a good clear-headed use of the imperfect term, so as not to let the eliding of racism and opposition to an ideology slide into one sloppy grey area.

 

[J Ed]

Building on the article in the MiddleEastEye, the FT has an article further fleshing out on the role of the British state, British Libyan Islamists and Gaddaffi from 2011 onwards. Well worth reading.

Throughout the years of Gaddafi rule in Libya, Manchester was a magnet for Libyan exiles like the Abedis. The city’s Libyan community, one of the largest outside Libya, is tightly knit. “Everyone knows everyone,” says one Libyan living in the city. Britain’s intelligence agencies knew the community well, too, and had longstanding dealings with its Islamist contingent. But the attack raises serious questions over their assessment of it. MI5, the UK’s domestic intelligence agency, facilitated the travel of many Islamist Mancunians back to Libya. Until recently, the UK’s spymasters have not seen the community as a particular threat. Libyan Islamists in Manchester, many believed, were too focused on waging a national jihad in their homeland to be a threat to the UK. Since the beginning of the Syrian civil war and the spate of attacks in France, Belgium and Germany, anti-terror work in the UK and Europe has focused on young returnees from Syria

..

Ramadan Abedi, Salman’s father, was a member of the Libyan nationalist- Islamist nexus in Manchester. By some accounts, he was a senior member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, the liberation movement that was the core of anti-Gaddafi Salafism. His sons grew up with tales of the injustices inflicted on devout Muslims in Libya. When Salman was 13, his father returned to Libya as part of a deal brokered between the Gaddafi regime — then keen to rehabilitate itself on the global stage — and émigré Islamists. It was an uneasy rapprochement, and one in which the UK’s intelligence agencies were deeply involved, as they sought to mine information from both sides to advance the war on terror.

Particularly damning..

Mr Bettammer says he and other secularist campaigners tried to warn the British ambassador to Libya at the time about the number of Britons and their radical views but were rebuffed. The UK, he says, wanted to encourage them instead because it viewed the Islamist groups as a more viable anti-Gaddafi alternative to native secularists

In 2011 the British state was promoting Islamist fighters over secular democrats. Not the 1980s or 1990s or 2001 prior to September 11th. 2011.

 

[danny la rouge]

[...]so as not to let the eliding of racism and opposition to an ideology slide into one sloppy grey area.

I fear it's too far gone already, especially on the liberal left. The STWC types on the other hand actively encourage the elision.

B.I.G for example already can't tell the difference. That's why s/he's happy to sling the term around at decent people.

 

[danny la rouge]

Quick skim through that Robin Richardson paper, and I see my suggestion ("Muslimophobia") is discussed. It's correctly pointed out that it's inadequate for describing racism against secular people from a "Muslim" background. That's a fair point.

(The people who contribute to Sister-hood Magazine seem to prefer to be called "women of Muslim heritage").

So, yes, the language is fraught with difficulties.

 

[mikey mikey]

Apologies if already posted, saw this a couple of days ago but someone's just tweeted it again. Can't say I'm massively surprised

That Twitter account is of a self-confessed Neo Con! LOL! This is his pinned youtube vid.



Wow. Just fkn wow.

 

[J Ed]

Quick skim through that Robin Richardson paper, and I see my suggestion ("Muslimophobia") is discussed. It's correctly pointed out that it's inadequate for describing racism against secular people from a "Muslim" background. That's a fair point.

(The people who contribute to Sister-hood Magazine seem to prefer to be called "women of Muslim heritage").

So, yes, the language is fraught with difficulties.

It might be fraught with difficulties but I don't think it's going anywhere. Etymologically and historically the term anti-Semitism for anti-Jewish sentiment is not very good since it sounds like it could apply to any group who speak a Semitic language, and it was originally a term used to make anti-Jewish politcs 'scientific' but it's the word we have for it now so it's stuck. Same sort of thing with Islamophobia I think. With both, I don't think it's even a matter of being religious or secular, you can be a victim of anti-Semitism or Islamophobia without being Jewish or Muslim as all the Sikhs on the receiving end of hate crimes show.

 

[danny la rouge]

It might be fraught with difficulties but I don't think it's going anywhere. Etymologically and historically the term anti-Semitism for anti-Jewish sentiment is not very good since it sounds like it could apply to any group who speak a Semitic language, and it was originally a term used to make anti-Jewish politicals 'scientific' but it's the word we have for it now so it's stuck. Same sort of thing with Islamophobia I think. With both, I don't think it's even a matter of being religious or secular, you can be a victim of anti-Semitism or Islamophobia without being Jewish or Muslim as all the Sikhs on the receiving end of hate crimes show.

Yeah, I agree with all that.

Like I said at the top of my post: stable door etc.

 

[B.I.G]

I fear it's too far gone already, especially on the liberal left. The STWC types on the other hand actively encourage the elision.

B.I.G for example already can't tell the difference. That's why s/he's happy to sling the term around at decent people.

The way people sling around the word liberal. You lot have your views. No decent person would endorse the way linking terrorism to islam has on people on that faith. But do as you please.

 

[danny la rouge]

The way people sling around the word liberal.

Hardly. It's a descriptor which has meaning. What alternative would you prefer?

You lot have your views. No decent person would endorse the way linking terrorism to islam has on people on that faith. But do as you please.

Who are you accusing of what? Precisely please.

 

[mikey mikey]

Exclusive: former explosives dog-handler talks May’s damage to security #GE17

One very busy town near me puts out 8-10 cops per 10-hour shift. That used to be twenty-five per 8-hour shift. The paperwork and jobs have doubled since then.

Don’t believe the politicians crime is rocketing – people have just got to the stage of not bothering to report it.