Main thing 'men's rights' types don't get?

[Cloo]

Been have a fascinating if depressing discussion of sorts with some anti-feminist/men’s right’s types on twitter. They’ve kept it fairly civil but their disdain for what they think of as feminism is obvious.

I think the central issue they fail to grasp is that feminism is not about ‘Yay, women are great! Boo, men are toxic and bad!’ but about structure and power. The latest sally was ‘What about toxic *femininity*?’.

Yes, what about it? To my mind, the problem with toxic masculinity (which I see as being about violence, blind privilege, deleterious shutting off of emotion etc) is that does its harm to everyone because we are in a patriarchy and so these things drive our society. You can’t get toxic femininity as such because we’re not running the show (not because we are marvellous and faultless). Though I think some of these guys are the type that believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, women and driving society and evilly feminising it under men’s noses.

I guess they are just running scared because, gosh darnit, these womenfolk are having opinions and taking things away from men and it’s all so unfair.

 

[Silas Loom]

Their end away.

 

[NoXion]

I've been reading posts by MRAs quoted on fstdt.net for a couple of years now, and one thing that continues to strike me is how they all sound like socially inept teenagers.

I wonder what their typical ages are?

 

[EastEnder]

Yes, what about it? To my mind, the problem with toxic masculinity (which I see as being about violence, blind privilege, deleterious shutting off of emotion etc) is that does its harm to everyone because we are in a patriarchy and so these things drive are society. You can’t get toxic femininity as such because we’re not running the show (not because we are marvellous and faultless). Though I think some of these guys are the type that believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, women and driving society and evilly feminising it under men’s noses.

I guess they are just running scared because, gosh darnit, these womenfolk are having opinions and taking things away from men and it’s all so unfair.

I think what some men don't get is that, on the whole, they're not running the show either. Those with the power & control are, by definition, in the minority, so many men are fooling themselves in thinking that by virtue of gender they're somehow superior or more authoritative. If more men were aware of the reality of life, they might realise that many of the aims of feminism, especially with respect to challenging patriarchy, will ultimately benefit everyone.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Their end away.

This. So much of it seems to stem from twats viewing sex and power over women as an absolute right.

 

[Cloo]

They also have this thing where they selectively pick their feminists 'LOOK feminists DO say all men are rapists because this one said it! Look, this feminist says no women should ever go to prison!'

I mean one came right out at said (to much agreement) that feminists just want 'special treatment' for women. I presume they would not get at all that what women want is the treatment that men take for granted. Things like not being talked over, not having ideas stolen, not sitting in a meeting because the guy who came to it is waiting for the boss when you actually *are* the boss etc etc

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

That it's not a zero-sum game. It's when they always pull out things like male suicide stats - it's not as a 'look this is an issue that should be addressed' thing it's always 'yeah but suicide so shut up!'

 

[trabuquera]

The main thing they don't get is that women are full human beings, just like they are.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I'd say that whatever "toxic femininity" is (and we can discuss that, but don't have to) it would be a product of partriarchy too.

 

[bemused]

toxic masculinity

I've always been confused by this term, that and why men's advocacy is apparently a bad thing.

Obviously, on the Internet, there is a legion of shitty people who say stuff to offend others for sport. But, there are issues that specifically impact men which are dismissed as real problems the moment anyone talking about them is tagged as an 'MRA'

It's a little sad that we can't look at problems in society and deal with them based on their impact rather than needed to use who it is affecting as some sort of weighting.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

But, there are issues that specifically impact men which are dismissed as real problems the moment anyone talking about them is tagged as an 'MRA'

Like what?

 

[bemused]

Like what?

To pick a few:

• the biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide, over 70% of deaths by suicide are male
• boys poor educational performance
• gender disparity in prison sentencing
• poorer health outcomes for men

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

To pick a few:

• the biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide, over 70% of deaths by suicide are male
• boys poor educational performance
• gender disparity in prison sentencing
• poorer health outcomes for men

Exactly where are these things "dismissed"?

FFS, this is exactly the sort of bollocks that makes everyones point for them.

 

[ffsear]

As Bill Murray said about twitter..

"It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person"

Never understood why people waste their time.

 

[Cloo]

. If more men were aware of the reality of life, they might realise that many of the aims of feminism, especially with respect to challenging patriarchy, will ultimately benefit everyone.

This is one thing I've been saying repeatedly, to be met with 'well I've seen feminists saying they're doing anything for men' uhm, the clue is in the name, the point is the outcomes from feminism are positive for men even if that is not explicit! And I,like many feminists, named some of those exact men's issues you mentioned, bemused

 

[Cloo]

As Bill Murray said about twitter..

"It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person"

Never understood why people waste their time.

I haven't actually been arguing, which is probably why they haven't shown me their teeth yet as I agree Twitter is not an debating tool. I am finding it interesting to get more of a sense of what these guys are about and that is knowledge that might be more usefully applied elsewhere.

 

[pengaleng]

theres some shit about toxic femininity on my toxic masculinity thread, it was things like passive aggressiveness iirc

you might want to watch 'the red pill' < a documentary by a feminist on mra types i havent watched it yet

 

[ffsear]

I haven't actually been arguing, which is probably why they haven't shown me their teeth yet as I agree Twitter is not an debating tool. I am finding it interesting to get more of a sense of what these guys are about and that is knowledge that might be more usefully applied elsewhere.

Yea sorry that wasn't a stab at you, more the types you are engaging with. Twitter itself is fucking toxic.

 

[pengaleng]

Yea sorry that wasn't a stab at you, more the types you are engaging with. Twitter itself is fucking toxic.

am sure cloo is an adult tho

 

[bemused]

This is one thing I've been saying repeatedly, to be met with 'well I've seen feminists saying they're doing anything for men' uhm, the clue is in the name, the point is the outcomes from feminism are positive for men even if that is not explicit! And I,like many feminists, named some of those exact men's issues you mentioned, bemused

I don't think groups of feminists sit is rooms working out how to do men wrong, nor would I disagree that a more gender-blind society is better for everyone. My point here that the use of the term MRA as an insult results in men's advocacy being diminished, in much the same way as using the term feminist as an insult enables the dismissal of important issues for women.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I don't think groups of feminists sit is rooms working out how to do men wrong, nor would I disagree that a more gender-blind society is better for everyone. My point here that the use of the term MRA as an insult results in men's advocacy being diminished, in much the same way as using the term feminist as an insult enables the dismissal of important issues for women.

Nah. Men's Rights idiots using those topics as a way to attack feminism (or their perception of it) does that.

You know they're not actually interested in those things right?

 

[Manter]

To pick a few:

• the biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide, over 70% of deaths by suicide are male
• boys poor educational performance
• gender disparity in prison sentencing
• poorer health outcomes for men

- calm, alright mate, the grassroots suicide campaign, #boysdocry, movember, #itsgoodtotalk, speeches by multiple athletes, Princes William and Harry, recent articles on BBC, most major newspapers suggests it isn't being dismissed as a real problem
- this isn't strictly true. Boys are more likely than girls to do badly at school when other factors are adjusted for (which is different) but poverty is still the strongest indicator of poor school performance. It is also interesting to note that while girls get better results than boys at almost every educational level, by 28 their earnings have dropped behind and women are still hugely underrepresented in managerial and professional roles.
- again, much more complicated than that Women and the criminal justice system 2013 - GOV.UK
- it is taken very seriously; see the reams and reams of discussion and research into sex and gender based medicine. Sex and gender differences in health: Science & Society Series on Sex and Science

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

- calm, alright mate, the grassroots suicide campaign, #boysdocry, movember, #itsgoodtotalk, speeches by multiple athletes, Princes William and Harry, recent articles on BBC, most major newspapers suggests it isn't being dismissed as a real problem
- this isn't strictly true. Boys are more likely than girls to do badly at school when other factors are adjusted for (which is different) but poverty is still the strongest indicator of poor school performance. It is also interesting to note that while girls get better results than boys at almost every educational level, by 28 their earnings have dropped behind and women are still hugely underrepresented in managerial and professional roles.
- again, much more complicated than that Women and the criminal justice system 2013 - GOV.UK
- it is taken very seriously; see the reams and reams of discussion and research into sex and gender based medicine. Sex and gender differences in health: Science & Society Series on Sex and Science

Don't sully this debate with facts

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I've had the misfortune of seeing some so-called MGTOW discussions on line. (Men going their own way). They claim that all women are gold diggers who don't care about men. To be honest, they come across as socially awkward teenagers, even though some of them are middle-aged! They all seem terribly excited about the idea of sex robots.

 

[19force8]

To pick a few:

• the biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide, over 70% of deaths by suicide are male
• boys poor educational performance
• gender disparity in prison sentencing
• poorer health outcomes for men

I don't know if these issues are particularly dismissed as such. It might be about the way they are deployed in arguments. If they're used, for example, as a means of denying the existence of women's oppression, then yes they will be dismissed as irrelevant.

However, for me they're indicators that this patriarchy malarkey isn't working for [most] men either. There's an awful lot of blokes who aren't benefiting one iota from it, in fact they're dying from it, but they're told that they are the problem, it's all their fault. Is it any wonder some resent this and bite back? After all, if they aren't being offered any improvement on the masculinity they've been raised with, then feminism will look like an attempt to rob them of even the [dysfunctional] aspiration to "be a man."

 

[Fozzie Bear]

To pick a few:

• the biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide, over 70% of deaths by suicide are male
• boys poor educational performance
• gender disparity in prison sentencing
• poorer health outcomes for men

All of these things would benefit greatly from better gender equality and less "being a man" nonsense. Which is part of the feminist project.

 

[Poot]

To break it down to a way which hopefully everyone can understand:

The reason why I can't get a promotion at work is the same reason why the family court didn't allow you as much access as you'd like to see your child. Perhaps it's time to address this. We don't have to refer to it as feminism if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[likesfish]

MRA think radfem and 4th wave feminism have massive influence when most people have no idea what they are wittering about.

 

[Cloo]

MRA think radfem and 4th wave feminism have massive influence when most people have no idea what they are wittering about.

Yes, I found it quite amusing that they talked about waves of feminism like they're experts whilst not believing you when you say 'Uhm, I'm an actual ordinary feminists and I don't know anyone that believes that'

Presumably if you tell them that they'll tell you that you're obviously not a feminist because they are the ones who get to define what it is.

 

[19force8]

The main thing they don't get is that women are full human beings, just like they are.

If only